Guild Masters and their Strategies/Schemes

[Maniac-Eye]

in Addition to the last Topic "Speeding up Lady J" i've read a very interesting sentence. "I dont take her er pretty often, cause of the strategies and schemes".

so my minds  are spinning around i hope for some helping needles.

Speed is a General Problem on Guild-Models i think so. Right? I'm still a rookie in Malifaux and playing always Guild. I only have Sonnia and Justice on Board with some other models (such as DMR, Brutal Effigy, Witchling Handlers, Guild Astringers..) . I'm learing by doing different schemes and change only 1 additional model. But i think i'm not as efficient as i should be or can with the right Master to the right schemes and strategies.

So i hope to see here some effective tips.  What are youre experience with the different Masters. What Schmes are you like to do with then. I dont Need "Building Lists" only MAster and the favorite Stratege/Schemes with them.

Thx for your participation.
Greetz Maniac-Eye

 

 

 

 

[RustAndTheCity]

Not a master, but Phiona with transparency can almost do dig their graves on her own!

[4thstringer]

I like Hoffman in everything except interference/recon/ours.  If I think the schemes will spread my out I stay away from him.   Other than that TBH at this point I'll run most guild masters into most strats.

[RhiaCat]

I threw together a quick chart to detail my general experiences. This is far from a comprehensive list, and new options have come out for a lot of masters in the last few books. This is as of Wave 4 models with Wave 5 upgrades. I haven't personally tested any of the Wave 5 models myself. (Fair warning, I really like Lady J and Guild McMourning, and I rarely play Perdita, Hoffman, or McCabe. That will likely color my experiences.)

I've also gone ahead and attached the excel file I used to throw this together if anyone else wants to throw in their two cents.

If you'd like some more in-depth commentary on a specific strat / master pairing or would like me to explain a choice more in-depth, please let me know, I really love Theoryfaux.

MalifauxGuildMasters.xlsx

[Ludvig]

@RhiaCat I don't see why Nellie would be bad in collect. She can bring a bunch of scary enforcers or minions and buff them through the roof. I'm also not sure why Lucius would edge out Hoffman, Hoffman has a very survivable crew and mass heals.

McCabe would be the only bad master for that since he gives up master points twice.

[RhiaCat]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

@RhiaCat I don't see why Nellie would be bad in collect. She can bring a bunch of scary enforcers or minions and buff them through the roof. I'm also not sure why Lucius would edge out Hoffman, Hoffman has a very survivable crew and mass heals.

McCabe would be the only bad master for that since he gives up master points twice.

I don't have much experience with Nellie, but it has always seemed to me that she's a support master that works best with models that are good already since she has no limitation to handing out fast, and she seems like she would die relatively quickly against dedicated killing models with high min damage that you'll often see in Collect. You're correct that we have some pretty killy enforcers and minions for her to buff, though.

I think that Lucius edges out Hoffman just barely, mostly because Lucius can make very good use of the Thralls, which are VERY survivable minions, has access to Terracotta Warriors to soak damage, can tarpit reasonably well with Red Tape on himself and the Scribe, and is less bubbly than Hoffman. That said, I don't play Hoffman too often, so I think my opinions on his schemes could be very wrong. (I also play against Neverborn and Outcasts most often, so I'm used to all of my models getting one-activationed, making the heal not super great.)

I disagree on McCabe being a bad master in Collect, because he can stay in the back lines and be quite slippery, and he can buff minions a LOT and make them trade up in bounty points very easily. My opinion is far from universal, however.

[Ludvig]

If McCabe isn't easy to kill because he hangs back I would assume Nellie can do the same thing. She has more wounds, a similar defense (because McCabe's varies) and that nifty cheating your opponents flips as well as being able to push any enemy that misses away so charging her can be really challenging. She also has her attack to just push people wherever she wants so even getting close to her can be tricky.

I'm not sure how Lucius brings sturdier models than Hoffman, if they can bring down a peacekeeper or Joss in a single activation they should easily handle a thrall since that model has less defensive tech. Joss is 9 wds, armour +2 and hard to kill, the peacekeeper is 11 wounds and armour +2 as well as hard to wound. Hoffman can give them extra armour if you're worried. Let's say Nekima gets a charge on you since you face neverborn a lot. A thrall dies to three minimum damage hits from her (which she can do with some reliability on a charge). A peacekeeper or Joss has about half their wounds left after those three hits. Lucius and Hoffman have similar ap efficiency since Lucius gives an ap with a bonus on a (1) action while Hoffman usually gives an ap and makes the model fast for his (1) ap. 

 

I also think McCabe is pretty great in headhunter btw. Probably better than McMourning or Justice. He brings hitty ml stuff that gets boosted by promises and uses dogs to pick up heads. If they kill the dogs you pick your own heads up. You can also push by handing out upgrades and then companion into things. Hoffman might be better than McMourning in headhunter too. If McMourning had allowed you to do an interact instead of placing a marker with his (0) he would have been custom made for headhunter. As it stands I would probably rate him as neutral.

Lucius and McMourning are both kind of great in squatter's rights since they can lock down squat markers early with traps and make them interact. Lucius can also interact while engaged so you can go hard for markers the opponent needs for scoring.

 

Edit: @RhiaCat Not some sort of attack or anything, I'm enjoying this discussion and hope you are too. Your list is just good to have as a jump-off point since it collects everything. Most of it I agree with.

[RhiaCat]

11 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

If McCabe isn't easy to kill because he hangs back I would assume Nellie can do the same thing. She has more wounds, a similar defense (because McCabe's varies) and that nifty cheating your opponents flips as well as being able to push any enemy that misses away so charging her can be really challenging. She also has her attack to just push people wherever she wants so even getting close to her can be tricky.

I'm not sure how Lucius brings sturdier models than Hoffman, if they can bring down a peacekeeper or Joss in a single activation they should easily handle a thrall since that model has less defensive tech. Joss is 9 wds, armour +2 and hard to kill, the peacekeeper is 11 wounds and armour +2 as well as hard to wound. Hoffman can give them extra armour if you're worried. Let's say Nekima gets a charge on you since you face neverborn a lot. A thrall dies to three minimum damage hits from her (which she can do with some reliability on a charge). A peacekeeper or Joss has about half their wounds left after those three hits. Lucius and Hoffman have similar ap efficiency since Lucius gives an ap with a bonus on a (1) action while Hoffman usually gives an ap and makes the model fast for his (1) ap. 

 

I also think McCabe is pretty great in headhunter btw. Probably better than McMourning or Justice. He brings hitty ml stuff that gets boosted by promises and uses dogs to pick up heads. If they kill the dogs you pick your own heads up. You can also push by handing out upgrades and then companion into things. Hoffman might be better than McMourning in headhunter too. If McMourning had allowed you to do an interact instead of placing a marker with his (0) he would have been custom made for headhunter. As it stands I would probably rate him as neutral.

 

Edit: @RhiaCat Not some sort of attack or anything, I'm enjoying this discussion and hope you are too. Your list is just good to have as a jump-off point since it collects everything. Most of it I agree with.

I'm really enjoying this discussion and I'll be the first to admit thay parts of my chart are far from correct - the only ones I really think I'm super confident with are Lady J and McMourning. 

 

With Nellie vs. McCabe, I agree that both masters are pretty survivable. My main distinctions is how the two enable models to trade up Station Wise. Most minions, even with fast, are going to have a tough time killing enemy enforcers or henchmen. McCabe has the upper hand crew-wise, imo, because his AP handout is a bit more efficient on minions (1 ap for 2 with black flash) and handing out the sword makes it very easy for models to cut through most defensive tricks and, again, trade up in station. 

 

Regarding Hoffman vs. Lucius, I'm normally looking at a Doppelganger with Retribution's Eye copying Nekima's attack on a model that Lelitu has lured in. Every time I've brought a Hoffman crew vs. Neverborn, I just get sliced to bits (I haven't gotten to play the matchup with his new Upgrade, however, which changes things A LOT.) Too often, I find that just having shit tons of wounds is the way to go vs. Neverborn since they don't have a model like The Hanged, and they can get through most defenses. Not to mention, the Terracotta Warrior's ability to negate an entire Nekima hit. 

 

Regarding Headhunter, McMourning and Lady J are my Go-tos because both can spend 2 ap to kill a model and pick up a head in the same activation - Lady J with her new placement effect, and McMourning with inject + On The Order. McCabe is a fantastic pic (and I don't think I adequately took his new upgrade into account - I believe it hands out Don't Mind Me, IIRC? - which makes his headhunter game a LOT better. Hoffman probably gets upgraded here too, since he can use Machine Puppet to grab the head. 

(I really need to play Hoffman more! His new upgrades did a LOT for him and I love the idea of a fast min 5 Francisco with cyborg <3)

I'm really loving this discussion - what master into what scheme pool is a topic that I feel isn't discussed nearly enough, and it's always good to hear other people's thoughts, especially on Masters I rarely play. 

[Ludvig]

Good points although anyone is boned if they get to lure whatever they want. McCabe would lose his sabre turn 1 because they kill it too far from him. It can be mitigated by just charging him straight in turn one, which I've actually done with decent success.  Put up el mayor on McCabe, have him hand out a couple of upgrades and then have him in the enemy crew at df 9 wp 8 and trust to luck.

My gripe with McCabe in collect is giving the 4points for a master away twice. It's really hard to trade up so well that those 4 extra points don't tip it in their favour.

To counter the lure thing I would probably use the harpoon gun on the peacekeeper or a hunter to bring Lilitu to me or use it to slow the doppleganger . They can't chain activate so if you keep your scary stuff from activating it's going to be a pretty dangerous prospect for them to lure it close. The new upgrade is limited in range I think so the one thing it doesn't solve is getting lured away.

[trikk]

Nellie is quite decent at quarters because you can outactivate most opponents which means you are likely to know how much models you need to move to score/deny.

In Collect she`s also quite good because you have a low model count with a ton of activations,.