Blast mechanic question

[Rostislav]

Merris Lacroix has 6'   immune to  damage.

Sonnia Criid attacks and kills Merris.
Will  generated from her attacks deal  damage?

[icebreaker]

there is a question in FAQ

Quote

129) Wong’s Lightning Jump Attack can cause damage multiple times, first with the initial damage to the target, then with blasts, and finally with the pulse. How is the timing on this Action handled in regards to Abilities which react to damage, for example Black Blood and Malevolence? Can those Abilities be used multiple times in response to a single Attack? Each portion of Lightning Jump which deals damage must be resolved separately. First the actual damage track is resolved, which involves Blast Markers (remember that in the case that the order in which resolving damage from Blasts matters, the Attacker decides the order in which models suffer damage, Core Rulebook pg. 50). Once that is complete, resolve the Pulse portion of Lightning Jump. Models with Abilities such as Black Blood or Malevolence may resolve them multiple times if the relevant models suffer damage multiple times, and they must be resolved in the order the damage is suffered.

So, If attacker must choose in what order deals damage, he/she can choose to deal damage to Merris first, remove it from play and then deal damage to model was touched by blast

[icebreaker]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

Models don't stick around till the end of the action. They need to stick around if there is an after damaging trigger, but otherwise they are removed immediately after reaching 0 wounds (I know, its a rough spot in timing as to exactly when they are removed, especially since After Damaging triggers specify they stay around, but seem to happen at the same time as after resolving triggers, which don't make that specification)

It sounds like if there is trigger it deals no damage from blasts, it there no trigger it deal all damage blasts. And this variability scares me.

(and what if I have "after damage" trigger but not declare it... )

[icebreaker]

Sorry, but it is a bull sh*t. The rules that work depends on the actions you use and ever on suit you get in duel total... It's a way to nowhere. It'd better that Sonia really deal no damage then IT.

And the situation with Wong is more complicated.  It have 2 triggers and pulse that is part of the action. If you are right it meat that to deal damage from pulse Wong's player must declare one trigger and can't declare another.

[Myyrä]

3 minutes ago, Aaron said:

@Myyrä ! How have you not weighed in yet? :-P

I don't answer questions on the forum, but I'm looking at the thread.

My answer is that one can definitely drop to Merris to 0 wounds before damaging anyone else, but there isn't sufficient information to say what happens next. Do abilities stop working when a model dies? When do killed models get removed?

[icebreaker]

Do abilities stop working when a model dies? When do killed models get removed?

I believe aura stops working only after model is removed from play, because aura is just an ability and we have a lot of abilities that works after model been killed but before removed from play, like 'finish the job'.

[Ludvig]

I propose the following: when you decide which order to deal the blast damage the aura is there. That means that no model is taking blast damage so you can now safely remove your blast marjers and decide the order of the affected models suffering damage. Merris is the only one damaged sive that was by the initial attackand no blasy, no one else suffers damage because everyone else has been determined to not suffer damage already.

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, Rostislav said:

Merris Lacroix has 6'   immune to  damage.

Sonnia Criid attacks and kills Merris.
Will  generated from her attacks deal  damage?

Only if they are more than 6" from Merris when they take the damage. Since to suffer damage from the blast you have to be in LOS of the origin point, you will be in the Aura if you are at least partially within 6" of Merris.

EDIT -Oh wait, thats not the question you are asking. You are asking if she dies before the blast damage is dealt. Give me a minutes...

 

EDIT 2

Yes, I think if you want them to suffer the damage, you can kill merris before you resolve the other damage. Based on this line from page 59

In situations where the
order that models suffer damage matters,
the Attacker may determine the order
in which the affected models resolve the
blast effects

[icebreaker]

And the same question for Wong's Lighting Jumb. If Merris was killed from LJ damage, does you need to flip carts for models in 3"  and does models get damage from thouse pulse?

[MrDeathTrout]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

In situations where the order that models suffer damage matters, the Attacker may determine the order in which the affected models resolve the blast effects

O'm not sure this rule applies in this example.  Since Maris is the initial target she is not taking damage from a blast effect. I haven't found anywhere in the rules where it states if the initial target takes damage before, during or after blast effects are resolved.

[icebreaker]

to @Adran

About Wong I want to say if you want to deal damage with original pulse you must declare "lighting storm" trigger in case if there is a chance to kill original target.

And this sounds just terrible when an efficiency of your actions depends of what triggers you have declared. 

In such case I tend to keep up my henchman's position and say that blasts cant deal damage to models within 6" and pray this will get to FAQ then play in such way you told.

[MrDeathTrout]

8 minutes ago, Adran said:

The nearest I've found is the FAQ Icemyn quotes that backs up the blast markers are resolved at the tiem you resolve the damage track, and if order matters, you get to choose as the attacker

Yes, but the blast marker portion points to pg 50.  Which only mentions you can resolve the blasts in any order you wish, not the initial damage, which is not blast damage.  Maybe I'm just splitting hairs that don't need to be split.

[Ludvig]

12 minutes ago, icebreaker said:

That mean than Adran the most right of us. This sound really crazy and need to be errated, but the Adrans version is most close to the rules.

What about my suggestion? When you decide what the effect of the blast is the aura is there so the effect can't be damage. After that you start doing damage but you have already decided that no one in the aura could have damage be the effect so there is no damage to resolve except the original target and targets outside the aura.

[Erik1978]

I would always rule the models within the  do NOT take damage.

Regardless of the order of blasts, the various damage output from the shot all happen during the same action, so Merris might be killed but she isn't removed until after the shot has had it's effect, including the blasts. 

Choosing to kill a model, and THEN the "delayed" blasts damage others, now without the protective aura from the model killed at the same time, seems an awful lot like the old: "it's doesn't say in the rules that I CAN'T to this..." -argument. 

Perhaps that's just me.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, DXXXVIII said:

NURSE:
After succeeding, the target gains the following Condition until the
end of the Turn: “Hallucinogens: This model’s Ml Attack Actions deal +2
damage. This model may only declare Ml Actions.”

THE BIGGER THEY ARE (Upgrade):
The Bigger They Are...: This model's  Actions
which deal damage deal +1 damage to non-Master
models with one or more Upgrades attached.

The blast deals diminished
damage to models who aren't the original target. The
damage dealt by a blast from a damage flip is one step lower
than the damage flipped for the initial blast. An Attack with
a 2/3/4 that deals Moderate damage, for instance, would
place one Blast Marker (due to the one b on the Moderate
damage), and deal 3 damage to the original target, and 2
damage to each other model within the blast.

How much damage does Hannahs Blast deal if I up her with the condition and the upgrade? 
(1) Ghost Censer (Ml 6t / Rst: Df / Rg: 3): Target suffers 2/4/6 damage.

Would the  of her medium flip still deal 2 damage or would it deal 5 damage to other models with upgrades and 4 damage to models without upgrades?

It would deal 4 and 5 reapectively. If something only applies to the target of an action then it will say "target suffers [insert effect]"

[Rostislav]

As Merris is killed, her aura fades.

Can I kill Merris first and after that deal damage with blasts?

Edit 1

deal damage with blasts in the same action.

[icebreaker]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

In situations where the
order that models suffer damage matters,
the Attacker may determine the order
in which the affected models resolve the
blast effects

Our Henchman says though because damage to target and to models from blast is a part of one action and works at same time and models removes from play only after all triggers been finished  the aura should work for all duration of the action.

So blast cant deal damage in 6" area.

[Rostislav]

So somehow most players in our club think that damage for all models happens exactly in the same time.
As so Merris is dead but is removed after all  are resolved.

Therefore other gremlin models within 6'  of Merris are unharmed. 

[Adran]

11 minutes ago, icebreaker said:

Our Henchman says though because damage to target and to models from blast is a part of one action and works at same time and models removes from play only after all triggers been finished  the aura should work for all duration of the action.

So blast cant deal damage in 6" area.

Unfortunately, your henchman isn't quite right here. 

Models don't stick around till the end of the action. They need to stick around if there is an after damaging trigger, but otherwise they are removed immediately after reaching 0 wounds (I know, its a rough spot in timing as to exactly when they are removed, especially since After Damaging triggers specify they stay around, but seem to happen at the same time as after resolving triggers, which don't make that specification)

12 minutes ago, Rostislav said:

So somehow most players in our club think that damage for all models happens exactly in the same time.
As so Merris is dead but is removed after all  are resolved.

Therefore other gremlin models within 6'  of Merris are unharmed. 

Damage doesn't all happen at once. I've quoted the rulebook that says it doesn't.

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, icebreaker said:

It sounds like if there is trigger it deals no damage from blasts, it there no trigger it deal all damage blasts. And this variability scares me.

(and what if I have "after damage" trigger but not declare it... )

Well if you haven't declared it, which has to be done before you compare duel totals, then there isn't an after damaging trigger to keep it there. 

I would like it to have 1 answer, but I can't get 1 answer that fits the rules. 

[Adran]

1 minute ago, icebreaker said:

Sorry, but it bull sh*t. The rules that work depends on the actions you use and ever on suit you get in duel total... It's a way to nowhere. It'd better that Sonia really deal no damage then IT.

And the situation with Wong is more complicated.  It have 2 triggers and pulse that is part of the action. If you are right it meat that to deal damage from pulse Wong's player must declare one trigger and can't declare another.

Not sure what you are trying to say about Wong. If you have declared 1 trigger you can't declare the other. You are only allowed 1 trigger per action. And you have to declare that trigger before you compare duel totals. 

Wong can damage a model twice with the same action, because it can be hurt by the blast marker and also by the pulse. The FAQ tells us that we have to resolve the damage track and then we have to resolve the pulse. 

You flip your cards,, you and your opponent both cheat/don't cheat as you wish and then you declare triggers. Assuming Wong won, he will then flip for damage. If he does moderate or severe damage you put the blast markers down and resolve the damage from them and the attack, in the order chosen by the attacker. Then you do the pulse based on the location of the target model and flip a card for each model within 3" of the target model. If the target model was killed by the original damage track, then they have been removed and so when you measure a 3" pulse from their location, they aren't on the table. (Unless you have declared the crow trigger which forces the model to remain on the table until the after damaging trigger has been resolved. (page 26))

[Adran]

Just now, MrDeathTrout said:

O'm not sure this rule applies in this example.  Since Maris is the initial target she is not taking damage from a blast effect. I haven't found anywhere in the rules where it states if the initial target takes damage before, during or after blast effects are resolved.

The nearest I've found is the FAQ Icemyn quotes that backs up the blast markers are resolved at the tiem you resolve the damage track, and if order matters, you get to choose as the attacker

[Lucidicide]

@Myyrä ! How have you not weighed in yet? :-P

I don't answer questions on the forum, but I'm looking at the thread.

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, icebreaker said:

I believe aura stops working only after model is removed from play, because aura is just an ability and we have a lot of abilities that works after model been killed but before removed from play, like 'finish the job'.

Yeah, that's how it seems like, considering rules don't say they do stop working.

[Rostislav]

12 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Yeah, that's how it seems like, considering rules don't say they do stop working.

And as so, what happens first? Marris is removed or blasts are resolved?

Rulebook states that model dropped to 0 or less wounds is immediately removed from play.

[Rostislav]

 radiates from model. If there is no model on the table, there is no