Learning to play

[spafe]

Hi folks!

I'm hoping to get some advice on learning to play. So I've got the starter box, quite a few ressurecitonists (I like them), and my wife has got some arcanists (collette ish crew). I'm a seasoned TT gamer, mainly playing 40k back in the day, recently its been necromunda, bloodbowl, xwing and now (hopefully) mallifaux. My wife... less so, things like smallworld board game is the closest shes ever come.

So with that out the way, I've got seamus crew, dead doxies, bete noir, all painted and ready, then a mcmourning crew waiting to be built. Also have the neverborn form the starter set done. My wife has a collette conversion, cassandra conversion, 3 performers converted, then the corpyhee set and a gunslinger conversion. Oh and 2 december acoyltes. All the conversions were made out of the through the breach female multipart kits and then we got the card pack for arcanists so we have them to use. I've got some new stuff on order but that'll be a while so I'll ignore for now.

Based on what we have, we did a very simple small game a few weeks ago, me using the neverborn and her using my ressurectionists (3 belles, sybelle and copy cat we figured was about even against neverborn starter). Just played the... mark ground mission to go and graffiti terrain, then a game of take and hold the central point. They let us learn the basic moves, card duels etc. All good. Last night we tried to up the complexity a bit with me using Seamus, sybelle, 2 belles, 1 doxie and bete V Colette, 3 performers, a dove and 2 coryphee. We had stake a claim and hold ground missions going (just small steps moved up to 2 objectives).

It was waay too complicated. I could follow what my guys did, and how they interacted (lots of move shenagians and betes poping up and burying), but how Colette and the performers should move about, what their abilities all did, when to use the dove... really couldnt fathom it, neither of us could keep all the rules in our head and play out how they would work... what would be good to do etc. The coryphee were ace, they were hard hitters, one put bete down straight away when she appeared and the other survived being lured in and attaked by a belle and sybelle, but the rest just seemed... poor, no umph, no direction... just frustrating to play.

So what did we do wrong? how can we symplify stuff. basically, help with how we should take a smaller step to getting our heads round the game. I was thinking next game I'll give my wife the ressurectionists as she got them a lot quicker, then I'd play the corypghee, cassandra, gunslinger and december acoyltes as then if I can get those ones (who seem more straight forward) then I can help her in later games with understanding how they work. Is this a good plan?

 

Sorry for the wall of text, and thanks if you managed to get this far!

[Ludvig]

Colette's crew has a lot of tricks that may be a bit more advanced than Seamus'. The box itself also lacks beater models but if you played a strategy where you need to interact a lot you will see how strong she is. 

I think the models you mentioned are more straight-forward. I would also recommend a strategy like squatter's rights and maybe playing without masters. 

If you drop Colette and leqrn about Cassandra and performers it might be easier to grasp Colette if she is the only new model.

How many times did you try the starter scenarios? They are there to teach the basics.

[spafe]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I think you're right, maybe doing a strat that required interacts next time might help. We'll give that a go.

When you say dropping masters, so have crews lead by henchmen or jsut use minions and peons only?

From the starter book we did the move/attack play through (minion on minion), then the 2v2 one. That gave us the idea of how to move and attack, engagement zones and disengaging strikes. That sorta thing. Then we did the... graffiti one where you can mark terrain to score points. Did we miss an intro mission that would be worth going back to? We had thought we had the 'basics' down with them, but then just having sooo many options and abilities from all of colletes crew, and the multiple objectives (def think it was a mistake to not have one of them that used interacts/scheme markers) was a bit overwhelming.

Thanks for your help btw!

[Angelshard]

If you play smaller crews (less than 35 stones iirc) you use henchmen as leaders instead of masters, that's why they have a cache.

I'd suggest you start with squatters right as strategy and line in the sand plus eliminate the leadership for schemes.

There is also a format called henchman hardcore which is 20 stones and 4 models each.

Also I found it really helped to make markers for all conditions so I can put them on the model cards and remember them better.

[Math Mathonwy]

Malifaux is a pretty complex game and taking a wholly new crew is always difficult even for veterans to wrap their heds around everything. Add to this that Colette and her showgirls aren't exactly the simplest crew and I can see it getting overwhelming quick.

I suggest easing into the Showgirls and I would do it by taking the Neverborn starter that she is familiar with and adding, , say, the Coryphee into it. Sure they are different Faction but don't worry about it. Then when that feels good, switch Angel Eyes for Cassandra. And when that works, switch Blood Wretches for Performers. And when that works, switch Scion for Colette.

[Ludvig]

Sorry, you probably played all the missions from the starter, I just didn't know one was called graffitti because I don't own it myself. I usually demo with henchman hardcore crews that I've put together myself. 

You have some solid advice from the other two posters above me, especially about not introducing too many models at once. I know people who have played mini games for years and malifaux for a fair while who still get confused when adding too many new models at once. Hope you find something that works for you!

[spafe]

@angelshard , you are right, I think (from memory) under 40SS can be henchmen, and over 25SS can be master, we played 35 ish SS so went with masters cos we had them and they looked fun (a mistake in hindsight).

If we were just going to go for one objective next game, what would you suggest? We were tempted to jsut do the table quarter one, but would a different one be more balanced/easier to work with?

@Math Mathonwyokay, thanks for the encouragement, I was getting worried as even though I'm seasoned at TT games I was finding it difficult, let along Mrs Spafe! Thats a really good idea. I think shes got the hang of the coryphee now, so might just go with them, decmeber acolytes (she likes her paint job of them and wants to use em), then the gunslinger looks straightforward, or maybe jsut keep with some neverborn minions that we know are easy.

@Ludvig, oh no, I'm almost certain I'm paraphrasing what we refered to it as, it probalby had a proper name, but we imagined it as the crews running round 'tagging' the place with their gang signs (and the deamons being distracted from doing this by undead hookers strip tease (there's a sentence I never thought I'd write!)).

Thanks for all the responses guys, I will take this info back to Mrs Spafe to reassure her that we just bit of more than we can chew and how to make it a bit simpler next time. Thanks!

[Paul7926]

Apologies to the OP as I'm about to hijack his thread because I have some learning questions and this seemed like a good place to add them.

I'm starting playing and I was wondering on the best sequence to follow to gradually ramp up the difficulty without overwhelming myself with new options.  I'm a seasoned gamer so whilst I have a ton of other games that help me understand the basics they also sometimes get in the way because I mistakenly think "Oh this is just like x in game y" when it's actually subtly different.  I have already decided that I'm starting with Henchmen Hardcore to cement the basics in my head and I've also selected Outcasts, specifically the Victoria's, to play whilst I learn.  I'm not bothered about being competitive at this stage so I'll just be keeping the same models with minor additions and/or changes along the way.  I guess the end goal is to be comfortable playing a full 50SS game including crew selection within the sort of time frame that would be allowed in a tournament.  It's not that I intend to set the tournament Malifaux scene alight but I do enjoy playing in tournaments so I need to be at least able to not flounder on the rules etc.

So what would you consider the steps to be and what milestones would you consider important before moving on?  Just ramping up the SS limit is one thing but when is a good time to be using all the proper strats and schemes? When do you progress from bringing a set list no matter what to properly selecting a crew as the game rules stipulate? What is the sort of time frame to be aiming to complete a game to it's conclusion?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help plus the OP for starting this thread.

[Ludvig]

Tournament standard is 2hrs for a 50ss game.

 

To get there I would just add stuff a little at a time. I would play hench hardcore for a few games and then move on to master-led games at about 35ss as soon as possible. Start using all strats and schemes as soon as you go bigger than hardcore but stick with mostly the same models that you are already comfortable with only adding one or two boxes. 

While practicing you will see that some schemes are super hard for your current model selection but that's not necessarily a problem, try schemes that seem super hard and do them with suboptimal choices. Sooner or later you will figure out which schemes suit your models and you will get really good at those models. After that you can start tailoring model selections to schemes.

I find 40 ss games and 50ss games take similar amounts of time. The deciding factor is your familiarity with models and common rules interactions, so as long as you use multiple copies of models you are familiar with you ahouldn't be afraid to take a step up in ss. As soon as you have familiarity with the models move on to 50ss. While learning a game will extend beyond three hours almost every time. You need to really be concious about time to push five rounds in under two hours (a lot of tournament players still don't always reach turn five). Many tournents don't even allow flipping for turn six even if you have time to spare which can be somethig to consider if tournaments are your ultimate goal.

Setting schemes and stuff in advance so you can build a list in advance saves a lot of time.

[Adran]

I think henchmen hardcore is not a good way to learn the game. Its ok at teaching you the combat mechanics, but it over emphasises combat as a way to win, which I don't think is true for the full game and so it gets bad habits ingrained. Of course if your local community play lots of Henchman hardcore, then go with that.

 

My suggested way to learn would be to play 25-35 ss games with multiples of the same model where possible (So with the Viks box, use your 3 ronin as much as possible) to allow you to learn the game without having to learn every model. 

I would start with small henchmen lead games, possibly with just the statrgy and 1 scheme. Feel free to avoid upgrades to begin. Try a game where you spend stones as often as you can, and then try a game where you never use them. 

Once you feel you're comfortable; with your games, add in the scheme choices, masters, upgrades and then start experimenting with your lists. 

 

To start with you'll expect full games to take 3 hours or more, dependign on how social you are, and what your opponent is like. With practise you xcan get that down to under 2 hours. 

Malifaux has 3 stages of learning -

you need to learn the rules, learn your crew, and then learn your opponents crew

[Paul7926]

@Ludvig @Adran

Thanks for the quick replies.  It's helped.

I'll certainly try and move forward from Henchmen Hardcore faster than I had perhaps planned.  Once I get the basic game flow to be second nature that should be enough at that level.  I'm thinking as soon as I'm not asking questions like "can I cheat that?" or "Can I use a SS here?" or "How does that work?" it will be enough.  As an Infinity player I already understand that a game based around fulfilling mission objectives plays totally differently if you ignore them and just play 'kill everything' style games.

Again because of Infinity I'm pretty good at not suffering from 'analysis paralysis' and taking ages over making in game decisions.  That should help with the total length of the game.  I'm also not concerned with winning in any way shape or form at the moment.  Which allows me to do things just to see what happens and experiment with my own crew synergies rather than doing what is simply statistically the best play to achieve victory.  Certainly to start I'll not have the experience to know what the optimal play might be anyway!

So I think my plan of attack now is this:  Henchman Hardcore for a few more games and then on to 25SS to introduce the strats and schemes (slowly at first).  I'll stick to a very static set of models until I've experienced enough games at that level to be comfortable before moving on.  I think I'll be here for quite a while.  Then I'll start introducing new models to get a feel for them and how they play and interact.  Then 35SS picking a crew 'properly' using what I've learned and eventually get to that at 50SS. 

Who knows if this will work but I like it as a general plan.

Thanks again.

[hydranixx]

Welcome aboard to the both of you.

This is a difficult game to learn without the guidance of an experienced player to help you, but it is very rewarding when things start clicking into place. I share the same opinions of the other players who posted here - don't start with masters, keep the model count low, play one simple scheme and a simple strategy to start.

Only when you're comfortable with your models and used them a few times (as in, when you know more or less what their stats, abilities actions are without needing to stop and read them), then add more. Only when you're comfortable with simple schemes, move onto more complex schemes, or have more of them, and eventually generate an entire 5-scheme pool.  

Personally I had success in the following set up, both when my henchman taught me the game, and when I'm teaching newer players:
Henchman-led, somewhere between 25 and 30ss, no upgrades, no soulstone use. Turf War & Protect Territory, Close Deployment. A few rounds of that teaches the basics well enough, then you can expand wherever you see fit.

12 hours ago, Paul7926 said:

I'm thinking as soon as I'm not asking questions like "can I cheat that?" or "Can I use a SS here?" or "How does that work?" it will be enough.

That's a good way of looking at it, actually. A lot of new players constantly beat themselves up for not knowing enough, to the point they aren't enjoying the game! I like your approach.

Then, once you've figured out the answers to your "can I cheat?" and "can I soulstone?" questions, you'll join the rest of us in the eternal conundrum of "should I cheat?" and "should I soulstone?" lol.

[Paul7926]

8 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Then, once you've figured out the answers to your "can I cheat?" and "can I soulstone?" questions, you'll join the rest of us in the eternal conundrum of "should I cheat?" and "should I soulstone?" lol.

You see now that is the key point.

When you are asking "Can I?" you are learning the mechanics but when you are asking "Should I?" you are learning the game.  

A good game should have you asking "Can I?" for a short time but "Should I?" almost indefinitely.

 

[spafe]

11 hours ago, hydranixx said:

War & Protect Territory, Close Deployment. A few rounds of that teaches the basics well enough, then you can expand wherever you see fit

No worries at all @paul7926 It has sparked more conversation that I can read to get a better gist of how to approach this beast of a game!

Hydrainixx, thats great, I was thinking I should ask what are good schemes to start off with while keeping it simple. If you had to pick one of those to use only (I know I know, not real mallifaux without lots of objectives), which one would you suggest while we are keeping it very simple?

I'll echo the more experienced folk here, Paul, dont make the mistake we did and jump in with masters and stuff, keeping it about 25 with a hench leader is the best way to wrap your head around mechanics.

Also in a positive light, I've not managed to scare off the wife from wanting to play, as if we hadnt got distracted by random rubbish tv last night, she was wanting to sit down and play out some 1-1 combats to go over the mechanics of attacking and cheating fate etc, which I'm taking as a massive positive for her interest in wanting to play

[hydranixx]

11 hours ago, Paul7926 said:

A good game should have you asking "Can I?" for a short time but "Should I?" almost indefinitely.

 

You'll find Malifaux demands this question be answered multiple times every single turn. It's a thinking person's game, not unlike chess in some ways. You'll get plenty of practise with this kind of decision making if you stick with the Viktorias for a good long while.

For the cheating and Soulstone example, each high card you have can ensure an attack lands, and each Soulstone you have can transform that attack into many with the Whirlwind trigger (which potentially blends the entire enemy crew into paste). However, high cards and Soulstone usage might be the only things that keeps a Viktoria alive since they're both incredibly flimsy.

8 hours ago, spafe said:

Hydrainixx, thats great, I was thinking I should ask what are good schemes to start off with while keeping it simple. If you had to pick one of those to use only (I know I know, not real mallifaux without lots of objectives), which one would you suggest while we are keeping it very simple?

While you're still getting the gist of activating models, taking duels, and learning when you can cheat cards etc you can get away with just Turf War. This isn't going to teach you about Interact actions and Scheme Markers which are at the heart of Malifaux, but it is (hopefully) going to get you and your wife comfortable with making tonnes of opposed duels, figuring out your models Actions and Abilities and the importance of positioning (relative to other models and relative to the centre of the board).

You each score by having multiple models (2) near the centre of the board; forcing them in the same place encourages you to perform lots of opposed duels and learn about cheating etc. If you do this, veer the Arcanists away from Performers and Mannequins etc as they'll feel very lackluster here.

Turf War is a strategy (an objective always shared by both players), and I would suggest adding schemes (objectives players choose for themselves) as soon as you feel comfortable. There's plenty of simple schemes, so don't worry yourself. There's some that just want you to kill other models, for example. Protect Territory is straightforward as you just need to place a Scheme Marker and stand near it, but it's good since it further teaches the importance of positioning and introduces Scheme Marker placing via an Interact Action.

Close Deployment is just how you set up your models - a particularly aggressive deployment type in most games. We usually suggest this deployment type since it cuts down on Walk actions and makes opposed duels start earlier.

[Paul7926]

10 hours ago, hydranixx said:

You'll find Malifaux demands this question be answered multiple times every single turn. It's a thinking person's game, not unlike chess in some ways. You'll get plenty of practise with this kind of decision making if you stick with the Viktorias for a good long while.

This is what I'm starting to understand.  I've played pretty much all the different game systems over the years (yeah I'm old, still remember when 40k was just the Rogue Trader book and almost an RPG) and I think Malifaux will easily fit into not only my personal preferences for a rule set but also something I can continue to learn and enjoy for a long time.

Just need to get in the games now.

[spafe]

@hydranixx, you good sir are a gent and a scholar (or a lady of fine repute!), thank you so much for that detailed reply.