Reckless = OP?

[trikk]

26 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Ummm...

Yes. If it stays on models that have it now. Take it off of some of them and its fine.

[Math Mathonwy]

5 minutes ago, trikk said:

Yes. If it stays on models that have it now. Take it off of some of them and its fine.

If you are complaining about Burt and Merris, please complain about Burt and Merris as opposed to about an Ability that they share with a dozen or so other models!

[trikk]

4 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

If you are complaining about Burt and Merris, please complain about Burt and Merris as opposed to about an Ability that they share with a dozen or so other models!

But you can either change the ability or change the models. I don't really care which one it is as long as a change is made.

[Math Mathonwy]

1 minute ago, trikk said:

But you can either change the ability or change the models. I don't really care which one it is as long as a change is made.

So you're saying that because a couple of models that you find too strong have an Ability, it should be changed no matter that the change would affect loads of models that you're fine with? That if I find Francisco too strong, it would be valid to suggest a change to HtK, Critical Strike, and Flurry because he has those and if they are changed, Francisco would be fine? I don't understand your line of reasoning at all.

Because, you see, I agree that Burt is too strong. In fact, I would think that many, many people would agree. So if you frame it like that, you will not only tackle your actual problem but also probably have something of a consensus. But you frame it as Reckless being too strong and suddenly you have a huge debate and are talking about something else that what you actual problem was.

I just don't get it.

[trikk]

I get what your saying so I will try to express my thoughts in a less compact way.

I think you cannot look at an ability without looking at the models who have it. Reckless was suppose to be mitigated by low Wounds so its not spammable. But Gremlins have a ton of healing and most of it is automatic (no flip required) or regen which makes Reckless unbalanced in Gremlins because it takes away a lot of the risk without changing the reward. A good example is Ooh Glowy Swinecursed that change reckless into swift and also have a (0) heal action.

Another good example is the wind gamin bury thing. If this ability was on a non-summonable Rare 1 model I don`t think people would complain. But its on a summonable non-rare model which makes it crazy. So is the ability OP? The model OP? The ability on the model OP? I think that depends on interpretation. Is it the gamin that make the ability great or the ability that makes the gamin great? Its intertwined IMHO. Another thing is the Firestarter. He has the same reckless but nobody complains about him because he is actually balanced around reckless. The Francisco example is also not really good because HtK and Flurry are seen in every (?) faction and if Gremlin reckless is changed I`d gladly swap the Crit strike for just +1 damage spread  

I agree Gremlins were suppose to be balanced around low df, low wds and healing but the fact is they haven`t and thats why we see a super tough 7SS burt, so I think most Gremlin models shouldn`t have reckless or reckless should be changed to tone down those models.

[EpicWaffle]

If you remove reckless from Burt, you can simply throw him in the trash. He has walk five and charge of 7, would you play him in those condition? Give him a decent charge stat and you can remove reckless form him, but I don't see how he's so broken. He's really, really good, but he's one of a kind, I don't believe you loose games exclusively because of Burt. I would also add that (and I love Burt as a model, so I use him a lot since the day I bought my first couple of boxes) reckless on Burt is used mainly to either scheme or compensate his low charge stat. In combat you can't say that it's broken having 3 ap, because it's full of models that get 3 ap while in melee, either with triggers or flurry. What makes Burt amazing imo is that he's so resilient, with the combination of slippery and htk, reckless is just a boost to compensate his charge and keep him on level with other models like francois. The main issue my playing group has with him, is that if well positioned it is so hard to kill him, but isolate him, and he's done (one solid hit and he can't use reckless).

for merris, spamming reckless is quite useless imo, I generally use it to rush the center, and from there I'm really conservative, cause she won't get her wound back, and her 0 does enough.

Also you keep citing rooster riders, but the main point of reckless wirh them was that it offered you a trigger to auto-kill the rider in case he dropped low, making it easy to play in any scenario, even against snipers (which now you can't do). Aside from it, it made scheming with a single rooster hella good, but on the attack side, they're as good as before (and don't get me wrong, I never like the models, and I'm really ok wth the cuddle since everyone was spamming 4x of them). The reason I don't bring roosters (and Alex explained it in his last video too) is that I don't wanna spend 6ss in a model that becomes uncontrollable with 1 hit (same reason I don't hire piglets).

 

[EpicWaffle]

6 minutes ago, trikk said:

I get what your saying so I will try to express my thoughts in a less compact way.

I think you cannot look at an ability without looking at the models who have it. Reckless was suppose to be mitigated by low Wounds so its not spammable. But Gremlins have a ton of healing and most of it is automatic (no flip required) or regen which makes Reckless unbalanced in Gremlins because it takes away a lot of the risk without changing the reward. A good example is Ooh Glowy Swinecursed that change reckless into swift and also have a (0) heal action.

Another good example is the wind gamin bury thing. If this ability was on a non-summonable Rare 1 model I don`t think people would complain. But its on a summonable non-rare model which makes it crazy. So is the ability OP? The model OP? The ability on the model OP? I think that depends on interpretation. Is it the gamin that make the ability great or the ability that makes the gamin great? Its intertwined IMHO. Another thing is the Firestarter. He has the same reckless but nobody complains about him because he is actually balanced around reckless. The Francisco example is also not really good because HtK and Flurry are seen in every (?) faction and if Gremlin reckless is changed I`d gladly swap the Crit strike for just +1 damage spread  

I agree Gremlins were suppose to be balanced around low df, low wds and healing but the fact is they haven`t and thats why we see a super tough 7SS burt, so I think most Gremlin models shouldn`t have reckless or reckless should be changed to tone down those models.

I agree on swine cursed, even tho without the regent wouldn't make much difference imo. They're faster executioner, and they go down easily, but I concur that even reckless on them is dirty.  No one complained about them at this moment with me, but I didn't saw it as necessary to put so much on a single minion in one go. 

[trikk]

19 minutes ago, EpicWaffle said:

If you remove reckless from Burt, you can simply throw him in the trash. He has walk five and charge of 7, would you play him in those condition? Give him a decent charge stat and you can remove reckless form him, but I don't see how he's so broken. He's really, really good, but he's one of a kind, I don't believe you loose games exclusively because of Burt. I would also add that (and I love Burt as a model, so I use him a lot since the day I bought my first couple of boxes) reckless on Burt is used mainly to either scheme or compensate his low charge stat. In combat you can't say that it's broken having 3 ap, because it's full of models that get 3 ap while in melee, either with triggers or flurry. What makes Burt amazing imo is that he's so resilient, with the combination of slippery and htk, reckless is just a boost to compensate his charge and keep him on level with other models like francois. The main issue my playing group has with him, is that if well positioned it is so hard to kill him, but isolate him, and he's done (one solid hit and he can't use reckless).

for merris, spamming reckless is quite useless imo, I generally use it to rush the center, and from there I'm really conservative, cause she won't get her wound back, and her 0 does enough.

Also you keep citing rooster riders, but the main point of reckless wirh them was that it offered you a trigger to auto-kill the rider in case he dropped low, making it easy to play in any scenario, even against snipers (which now you can't do). Aside from it, it made scheming with a single rooster hella good, but on the attack side, they're as good as before (and don't get me wrong, I never like the models, and I'm really ok wth the cuddle since everyone was spamming 4x of them). The reason I don't bring roosters (and Alex explained it in his last video too) is that I don't wanna spend 6ss in a model that becomes uncontrollable with 1 hit (same reason I don't hire piglets).

 

I`m sorry but Wk5 and Cg7 aren`t really low stats for a 7SS enforcer with min 3 damage Thats the charge of a 11SS peacekeeper. I also totally don`t get the 3 ap in melee. He is 7SS with Ml6 and min damage 3 (and occasionally 4). In the games I play reckless is used mostly for attacking with min 3. 

For Merris, if she does it 2 times a game it means a lot of VP most of the time.

 

But you brought another exploit and idea - the exploit is killing your own models to not give points. The idea is what if you could only reckless if you`re above half Wds?

[Myyrä]

The way I see it, there's only 4 clearly too powerful models with Reckless.

The first one is lightning bugs. Even without Reckless they would be one of the best damage dealers at their ss cost. Add to that the fact that they have a heal and an extremely useful if somewhat unreliable (0) action and you have pretty ridiculous 5ss model. 

The second one is Francois. A 7ss model sports the highest damage output in the whole game. I think that's enough said about him. 

Third would be Burt. His durability, mobility and damage are also way above the norm for a 7ss model, and unlike Francois, he doesn't even damage himself when hitting others. He becomes especially ridiculous when you can boost him somehow, which makes him popular with Nellie and Wong for example. 

The fourth and maybe worst of all is Swine Cursed. How can anyone even consider 7ss model being potentially able to make 6 defense ignoring attacks with min damage 3 being even remotely fair? 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

I get what your saying so I will try to express my thoughts in a less compact way.

Thank you! A longer post is easier to engage with (also one of the main reasons why I dislike Facebook for conversations such as this).

1 hour ago, trikk said:

I think you cannot look at an ability without looking at the models who have it. Reckless was suppose to be mitigated by low Wounds so its not spammable. But Gremlins have a ton of healing and most of it is automatic (no flip required) or regen which makes Reckless unbalanced in Gremlins because it takes away a lot of the risk without changing the reward. A good example is Ooh Glowy Swinecursed that change reckless into swift and also have a (0) heal action.

Gremlins do have good healing. But said healing is often limited (Dirty Cheater), rare (Regeneration - only through Wong, right?), expensive (Fingers), weird (Lightning Bugs), or doesn't have to do with Reckless (various Pigs). That leaves mostly Slop Haulers as a general solution but they are slow when they wish to heal so it puts pressure on positioning and they are also pretty squishy. Furthermore, they lack chain activation so there's always a window of opportunity to take advantage of the wounded state. Finally, many of the Reckless models simply don't have all that many Wounds to begin with so even that one wound does hurt.

1 hour ago, trikk said:

I agree Gremlins were suppose to be balanced around low df, low wds and healing but the fact is they haven`t and thats why we see a super tough 7SS burt, so I think most Gremlin models shouldn`t have reckless or reckless should be changed to tone down those models.

"the fact is they haven`t" - that is not a fact. It's an opinion. And probably a minority opinion at that.

1 hour ago, EpicWaffle said:

If you remove reckless from Burt, you can simply throw him in the trash. He has walk five and charge of 7, would you play him in those condition? Give him a decent charge stat and you can remove reckless form him, but I don't see how he's so broken. He's really, really good, but he's one of a kind, I don't believe you loose games exclusively because of Burt.

To be fair, even if he costed 1SS he would still be one of a kind and wouldn't make Trikk lose games exclusively because of him. So I'm not sure that that is a useful definition of something being broken or not.

Also, Cg stat of eight would certainly be very decent (right?) and I hardly think that would compensate for losing Reckless.

1 hour ago, trikk said:

But you brought another exploit and idea - the exploit is killing your own models to not give points. The idea is what if you could only reckless if you`re above half Wds?

Would make Raphael very, very sad.

But again, why are you suggesting changes to Reckless when you are actually are concerned about Burt and Merris? Why not simply say that Burt should cost 9SS and Merris should have Drunk and Reckless instead of Reckless? Or whatever you'd consider suitable n€rfs for them?

[trikk]

11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Gremlins do have good healing. But said healing is often limited (Dirty Cheater), rare (Regeneration - only through Wong, right?), expensive (Fingers), weird (Lightning Bugs), or doesn't have to do with Reckless (various Pigs). That leaves mostly Slop Haulers as a general solution but they are slow when they wish to heal so it puts pressure on positioning and they are also pretty squishy. Furthermore, they lack chain activation so there's always a window of opportunity to take advantage of the wounded state. Finally, many of the Reckless models simply don't have all that many Wounds to begin with so even that one wound does hurt.

The "weird" Lightning Bug  heal is healing 6 gremlins for 2 in a Somer list. Dirty Cheater isn`t that limited, it requires cards but its Rare 3(?). Slop haulers are probably the best healers in the game. I would also like to point out that most of those things aren`t healer-only. Fingers is pretty hard to play against, Lightning Bugs have an very good attack for 5SS.

11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

"the fact is they haven`t" - that is not a fact. It's an opinion. And probably a minority opinion at that.

We just had a discussion that the low Wound count isn`t really low on the top picked models and that Gremlins don`t have as little defensive tech as some people suggest, didn`t we?

 

11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

To be fair, even if he costed 1SS he would still be one of a kind and wouldn't make Trikk lose games exclusively because of him. So I'm not sure that that is a useful definition of something being broken or not.

This can be said about any model. But if you stack a lot of those undercosted models you`re suddenly 1-2 decent activations up to most other factions. The fact in a Hamelin list you don`t lose due to Ashes and Dust alone doesn`t mean Ashes and Dust shouldn`t be changed.

 

11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Also, Cg stat of eight would certainly be very decent (right?) and I hardly think that would compensate for losing Reckless.

I don`t think he needs it but certainly I`m not opposed to doing more than just removing reckless. I think he wouldn`t be running around everywhere with it.

 

11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Would make Raphael very, very sad.

Not seeing play (or very very rarely seeing play) and getting outshined by Francois and Burt makes Raphael very, very sad. Like the point above, if reckless was changed I wouldn`t mind if Raphael got something else instead.

 

11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

But again, why are you suggesting changes to Reckless when you are actually are concerned about Burt and Merris? Why not simply say that Burt should cost 9SS and Merris should have Drunk and Reckless instead of Reckless? Or whatever you'd consider suitable n€rfs for them?

Because Swinecursed, Francois, Lightning Bugs and probably Taxidermist.

 

P.S. I do realize that there are Gremlin models with Reckless that are probably ok. But unfortunately those are not the ones I see on the table

[Math Mathonwy]

1 minute ago, trikk said:

The "weird" Lightning Bug  heal is healing 6 gremlins for 2 in a Somer list.

Yeah, but that's where he shines. Otherwise using him as a healer is weird and difficult. So like I said, "weird".

1 minute ago, trikk said:

Dirty Cheater isn`t that limited?

It takes an Upgrade slot, it's limited in number and it requires cheating. That's quite a few limitations, IMO.

1 minute ago, trikk said:

Slop haulers are probably the best healers in the game.

Yup.

1 minute ago, trikk said:

I would also like to point out that most of those things aren`t healer-only. Fingers is pretty hard to play against, Lightning Bugs have an very good attack for 5SS.

Sure.

It seems that you aren't really disagreeing with anything I said, though.

1 minute ago, trikk said:

We just had a discussion that the low Wound count isn`t really low on the top picked models and that Gremlins don`t have as little defensive tech as some people suggest, didn`t we?

You keep suggesting across the board changes to Reckless as opposed to changes to the top picks. Therefore I engage with you on that level.

And really, Gremlins are squishy. They do lose the attrition game. All that little damage does add up.

1 minute ago, trikk said:

This can be said about any model. But if you stack a lot of those undercosted models you`re suddenly 1-2 decent activations up to most other factions.

Dude, I was agreeing with you!

1 minute ago, trikk said:

I don`t think he needs it but certainly I`m not opposed to doing more than just removing reckless. I think he wouldn`t be running around everywhere with it.

You would use him if he was just like he is now but without Reckless??

OK, I really, really suggest that you play Gremlins for a bit as you obviously don't and therefore seem to entertain some really weird views.

1 minute ago, trikk said:

Not seeing play (or very very rarely seeing play) and getting outshined by Francois and Burt makes Raphael very, very sad. Like the point above, if reckless was changed I wouldn`t mind if Raphael got something else instead.

Raphael was used by the Adepticon winner unless I missed something. He is very underrated. I like him a lot.

1 minute ago, trikk said:

Because Swinecursed, Francois, Lightning Bugs and probably Taxidermist.

Let's talk Taxidermists, then. 6 Wd, 4 Wp, 5 Df (and Armor +1). Does this tick the marks for low survivability for you? Where that Reckless damage makes an impact? How bad should they be to be bad enough for you? Wp and Df 3?

[Bazlord_Prime]

The more of the responses that i read, the more i think this is just going to be "one of those things" that won't be successfully reasoned to a conclusion.

If you haven't played with Gremlins, you're unlikely to feel the compromises that Reckless places on you.

If you don't think 4-dimensionally, you'll talk about all the healing that Gremlins have as if it's available to every model, all the time - without realising that means they'll all have to be crazy bunched up in the backfield, and looking to get blasted.

And if you're a dedicated Gremlin - like me - you probably underestimate how naff it can look to an opponent when you declare 2-3 times a turn that you're just going to put Fast on the model, and go do some legit Stuff.

But I reckon that the bottom line is this: if Reckless was a major issue, Wyrd would've done something about it by now. The Rooster Rider cuddle supports that idea. Sure, it might all get changed in M3e, but up till now Wyrd have had ample opportunity to roll it back through successive Errata, and yet it hasn't been. 

Reckless fits the nature of Gremlins, and i suspect that nature gets up the noses of some of the more "serious" players. I saw it a bit with the related Goblin armies in WHFB - the rolling of eyes when a Ball & Chain Fanatic came flying out of an otherwise useless unit - but that's what the factions are meant to be: volatile, high-risk high-reward fun.

If Wyrd finds a way to keep that central to the faction while ditching Reckless and replacing it with something else, then i don't mind. But it should still be something risky with the potential for great rewards. And it should be something silly - something the serious players won't approve of 

[trikk]

40 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

You would use him if he was just like he is now but without Reckless??

OK, I really, really suggest that you play Gremlins for a bit as you obviously don't and therefore seem to entertain some really weird views.

Raphael was used by the Adepticon winner unless I missed something. He is very underrated. I like him a lot.

Let's talk Taxidermists, then. 6 Wd, 4 Wp, 5 Df (and Armor +1). Does this tick the marks for low survivability for you? Where that Reckless damage makes an impact? How bad should they be to be bad enough for you? Wp and Df 3?

I think he would be pretty decent without reckless. Especially in a faction where you have a lot of cheap models to use for slippery. Like I said, I`m not opposed to more changes to Burt but I think the current iteration with reckless is problematic.

 

6 Wd with Df5 and Armor for 7S aren`t low survivability. I`d say they are average. Thats 3 min damage 3 hits or 6 min damage 2 hits. Thats 9/12 damage on average respectively. Same amount kills a Punk Zombie. Yes, Wp4 is a bad stat and he definitely lacks in this department but you are IMHO undervalueing armor. I`m not saying they are T3 Mech Riders but they are surivable average 7SS IMHO.

Hunters who I think are considered survivable have 1 Wd and 1 Wp more and have access to a lot less healing.

[trikk]

3 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

But I reckon that the bottom line is this: if Reckless was a major issue, Wyrd would've done something about it by now. The Rooster Rider cuddle supports that idea. Sure, it might all get changed in M3e, but up till now Wyrd have had ample opportunity to roll it back through successive Errata, and yet it hasn't been. 

Hamelin is an issue since Crossroads so you might be or might not be right about this.

I do agree it might be a "Gremlin point of view" vs "Not-Gremlin point of view" thing but like I said, Gremlins have the highest Tournament point average in 3 different rankings. I don`t think its "Dumb Luck"

[Math Mathonwy]

4 minutes ago, trikk said:

I think he would be pretty decent without reckless. Especially in a faction where you have a lot of cheap models to use for slippery. Like I said, I`m not opposed to more changes to Burt but I think the current iteration with reckless is problematic.

I still suggest you try playing a few games with Gremlins.

4 minutes ago, trikk said:

6 Wd with Df5 and Armor for 7S aren`t low survivability. I`d say they are average. Thats 3 min damage 3 hits or 6 min damage 2 hits. Thats 9/12 damage on average respectively. Same amount kills a Punk Zombie. Yes, Wp4 is a bad stat and he definitely lacks in this department but you are IMHO undervalueing armor. I`m not saying they are T3 Mech Riders but they are surivable average 7SS IMHO.

"6 min damage 2 hits" - are you even serious here? What's the relevance of that? A Peacekeeper takes 11 min damage 3 hits but no one is ever going to do that ever.

Also, they have 6Wd if they don't use Reckless. Which is the main thing we're discussing here.

4 minutes ago, trikk said:

Hunters who I think are considered survivable have 1 Wd and 1 Wp more and have access to a lot less healing.

But they don't damage themselves! This is really the big deal about Reckless.

4 minutes ago, trikk said:

Gremlins have the highest Tournament point average in 3 different rankings. I don`t think its "Dumb Luck"

So if a Faction has the highest Tournament point average, then they need to be n€rfed?

...that might not be a good idea in the long run  

[trikk]

12 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

"6 min damage 2 hits" - are you even serious here? What's the relevance of that? A Peacekeeper takes 11 min damage 3 hits but no one is ever going to do that ever.

I added it for reference but you chose to ignore the 3 min 3 hits.

12 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Also, they have 6Wd if they don't use Reckless. Which is the main thing we're discussing here.

But they don't damage themselves! This is really the big deal about Reckless.

Yes, but you are not forced to use reckless, are you? This means you use it when it can score you points or you can heal the damage done. But this sounds like "I`m more or less survivable like other 7SS models but I have wounds from reckless" but what it means usually if you let 1 reckless model unoposed the Gremlin player pretty easily can score a lot of VP with just 1 model with no cards required.

 

12 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

So if a Faction has the highest Tournament point average, then they need to be n€rfed?

...that might not be a good idea in the long run  

I`m not saying thats the reason. But there was an argument that "Gremlins are not broken because they didn`t win any big tournaments" to which I replied that they have the highest tournament avg. I`m not saying this is a reason to cuddle something but its an argument against "Gremlins are totally balanced".

 

P.S. I`d like to point out that even if we don`t agree about certain things, I have full respect for your opinion and I try to think about everything that you say

[EpicWaffle]

12 minutes ago, trikk said:

I think he would be pretty decent without reckless. Especially in a faction where you have a lot of cheap models to use for slippery. Like I said, I`m not opposed to more changes to Burt but I think the current iteration with reckless is problematic.

 

6 Wd with Df5 and Armor for 7S aren`t low survivability. I`d say they are average. Thats 3 min damage 3 hits or 6 min damage 2 hits. Thats 9/12 damage on average respectively. Same amount kills a Punk Zombie. Yes, Wp4 is a bad stat and he definitely lacks in this department but you are IMHO undervalueing armor. I`m not saying they are T3 Mech Riders but they are surivable average 7SS IMHO.

Hunters who I think are considered survivable have 1 Wd and 1 Wp more and have access to a lot less healing.

As the other said, you should play a couple of games as gremlins. 

The healing is there if a) you bunch up (not a good idea) b) you have dirty cheater

thr lighting bug works just for Somer, that's it. Otherwise is the most occasion healing you can find, and trying to bring it forward for more turns is really clunky.

i never had a game where my healing was so astonishing that it prevented my entire army to stay alive. It makes it harder, not impossible

I don't remember where I heard this, I think it was from an Alex schmid video, but he sudjested the following change to reckless IF we do need one:

rekless is treated as a condition, where the more you use it, the more damages you get from it; if you skip a turn, the damage decrease by one.

that would mean that if I use reckless one turn, I would get one damage,2 times for 2 damages etc.

Imo, that's a good idea, it would distinct people that use it properly, and people that abuse it

But removing the mechanic? No, I'm not on board with it. Or at least, if you wanna tone down an entire faction, well I have my fair share of shenanigans for all the others 

 

[Bazlord_Prime]

16 minutes ago, trikk said:

Hamelin is an issue since Crossroads so you might be or might not be right about this.

I do agree it might be a "Gremlin point of view" vs "Not-Gremlin point of view" thing but like I said, Gremlins have the highest Tournament point average in 3 different rankings. I don`t think its "Dumb Luck"

Well, no - I am right, because all I was saying was there've been many errata since M2e, and Reckless hasn't been changed on any more than one model. Which is true.

Wyrd have obviously looked in that direction, and decided to do nothing much about it. Whatever's happened to Hamelin is a separate issue. If he was boosted in Crossroads, then perhaps it went too far. But Reckless itself hasn't been touched.

The tournament point average anecdote is nice, but it's a far leap of logic to correlate that directly to Reckless. How many different rankings are there, btw? I'm just looking at the LogFaux results - Gremlins are top there, by 0.31%, over a combined total of 6700 games. What's interesting is that Zipp is the "most winning" Master in Gremlins. And the second most played.

I hear a lot of good things about Zipp, but i don't play him. Might that not also be a reason for the unbreakable Gremlin dominance seen in your tournaments? Really good players, knowing how to use the new-shiny Master?

[EpicWaffle]

and to be fair, @trikk I respect your point of view, and your ability as a player. I from time to time read your blog and you use some clever lists, so you know what you're talking about, but I think that you have too much expirience as an opponent of gremlins, rather than using them. I bounced around a lot of factions, keeping the green guys as my mains, to see how other faction felt like cause I had sthe same issue you had, and that really helped me grow as a player.  

And another thing, I had the same problem you have with Burt with a&d: it's an absurdly strong model, and every time I went bananas after finding myself smashed by that thing, without me being able to do anything about it. So I went knee deep into finding a solution to deal with him and from there on, it didn't scared me anymore, not so much at least. Now, while being still a huge threat I play accordingly and try to keep up (feeding it smaller models, using indirect damages or keeping him stuck, with beaters etc.). I'm sure you can do the same with Burt (for example, isolate him and than take him down, which is not so hard to do, or keepi him busy while you rush something else).

another example would be Reva, or Hamlin, or Vicks, this game is full of strong stuff that seems unfair, but none of this is unbeatable if you play better than your opponent.

[EpicWaffle]

10 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

 

I hear a lot of good things about Zipp, but i don't play him. Might that not also be a reason for the unbreakable Gremlin dominance seen in your tournaments? Really good players, knowing how to use the new-shiny Master?

Good take on the question! Although I find Somer way stronger, it's true that a lot of gremlins popped up out of nowhere since Zipp got released.

[trikk]

23 minutes ago, EpicWaffle said:

As the other said, you should play a couple of games as gremlins. 

The healing is there if a) you bunch up (not a good idea) you have dirty cheater

thr lighting bug works just for Somer, that's it. Otherwise is the most occasion healing you can find, and trying to bring it forward for more turns is really clunky.

i never had a game where my healing was so astonishing that it prevented my entire army to stay alive. It makes it harder, not impossible

I don't remember where I heard this, I think it was from an Alex schmid video, but he sudjested the following change to reckless IF we do need one:

rekless is treated as a condition, where the more you use it, the more damages you get from it; if you skip a turn, the damage decrease by one.

that would mean that if I use reckless one turn, I would get one damage,2 times for 2 damages etc.

Imo, that's a good idea, it would distinct people that use it properly, and people that abuse it

But removing the mechanic? No, I'm not on board with it. Or at least, if you wanna tone down an entire faction, well I have my fair share of shenanigans for all the others 

I`m not saying you`re healing to full with everything. But it mitigates a lot of the early reckless damage with basically no cards required.

I like the idea and a lot of other ideas about it but like I said, some of the current models with reckless are way too good. It might be that its reckless, it might be something else but overall what you get for the SS is way too much. I don`t know if it would work, but I like the idea of "distincting people who use it and properly and people who abuse it"

6 minutes ago, EpicWaffle said:

and to be fair, @trikk I respect your point of view, and your ability as a player. I from time to time read your blog and you use some clever lists, so you know what you're talking about, but I think that you have too much expirience as an opponent of gremlins, rather than using them. I bounced around a lot of factions, keeping the green guys as my mains, to see how other faction felt like cause I had sthe same issue you had, and that really helped me grow as a player.  

And another thing, I had the same problem you have with Burt with a&d: it's an absurdly strong model, and every time I went bananas after finding myself smashed by that thing, without me being able to do anything about it. So I went knee deep into finding a solution to deal with him and from there on, it didn't scared me anymore, not so much at least. Now, while being still a huge threat I play accordingly and try to keep up (feeding it smaller models, using indirect damages or keeping him stuck, with beaters etc.). I'm sure you can do the same with Burt (for example, isolate him and than take him down, which is not so hard to do, or keepi him busy while you rush something else).

another example would be Reva, or Hamlin, or Vicks, this game is full of strong stuff that seems unfair, but none of this is unbeatable if you play better than your opponent.

I never lost to Reva. I won with Hamelin.  I won with the Viks. I`m countlessly saying I don`t think Gremlins are unbeatable but that doesn`t mean everything is ok. 

 

17 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

The tournament point average anecdote is nice, but it's a far leap of logic to correlate that directly to Reckless. How many different rankings are there, btw? I'm just looking at the LogFaux results - Gremlins are top there, by 0.31%, over a combined total of 6700 games. What's interesting is that Zipp is the "most winning" Master in Gremlins. And the second most played.

I hear a lot of good things about Zipp, but i don't play him. Might that not also be a reason for the unbreakable Gremlin dominance seen in your tournaments? Really good players, knowing how to use the new-shiny Master?

pol.malifaux-rankings.com

usa.malifaux-rankings.com

malifaux-rankings.com (UK)

I have a more or less 50/50 W/L against Zipp. I find him very annoying but I think he loses to Somer/Wong. But I don`t play Neverborn and I think thats when he shines with the Ht attack. I do find him the second coolest Gremlin master (after Ophelia).

[lame0]

Honestly now that I've seen complaints about basically every model used in a Somer crew and reckless I just feel like this whole thread is a slippery slope. I think at this point if you give anything you lose it all. If we cuddle Burt and take something away then Trixie & Francois will be complained about after a few months and then "evidence" that reckless is too strong will be out there. I think changing reckless would piss off the whole gremlin player base and imo ruin the credibility of wyrd. One thing is tweaking a single model or two....tweaking basically 25% of a faction that's nuts and most actual player of the faction would find it unfair unless basically every other faction got their top 50% of models tuned down. Honestly a world where 1) reckless in crapped on (once per game, fast this turn slow next, etc.) Or 2) all our cool models lose it would suck and I it would just make us bad. I feel like a ton of commentors saying the negatives don't really care what happens to Gremlins playability afterwards because they can go back to whatever they play and be happy that one faction they face will be so much easier. I only play gremlin (gf plays guild) and I would hate to see a faction I really love go down in flames. I hope wyrd sees past these complaints and scrolls through the forms back to early 2017 when some guy was complaining he couldn't win a game.

I think wyrd should just work on gg18 to make ap/model count a little less powerful a resource and then after that we can see. Right now gg17 doesn't have sufficient schemes that balance out for elite crews so obviously Gremlins/Tara's crew/ summoners will run rampant and do well. Are Gremlins best equipped at this gg17? Maybe? Is that reason to cuddle them to the ground...no

Also on a side note It makes me feel good to an extent people are complaining about lighting bug efficiency healing somers new buddies. I brought that strategy to light ohh so long ago on my old account  

 

[trikk]

6 minutes ago, lame0 said:

Honestly now that I've seen complaints about basically every model used in a Somer crew and reckless I just feel like this whole thread is a slippery slope. I think at this point if you give anything you lose it all. If we cuddle Burt and take something away then Trixie & Francois will be complained about after a few months and then "evidence" that reckless is too strong will be out there. I think changing reckless would piss off the whole gremlin player base and imo ruin the credibility of wyrd. One thing is tweaking a single model or two....tweaking basically 25% of a faction that's nuts and most actual player of the faction would find it unfair unless basically every other faction got their top 50% of models tuned down. Honestly a world where 1) reckless in crapped on (once per game, fast this turn slow next, etc.) Or 2) all our cool models lose it would suck and I it would just make us bad. I feel like a ton of commentors saying the negatives don't really care what happens to Gremlins playability afterwards because they can go back to whatever they play and be happy that one faction they face will be so much easier. I only play gremlin (gf plays guild) and I would hate to see a faction I really love go down in flames. I hope wyrd sees past these complaints and scrolls through the forms back to early 2017 when some guy was complaining he couldn't win a game.

I think wyrd should just work on gg18 to make ap/model count a little less powerful a resource and then after that we can see. Right now gg17 doesn't have sufficient schemes that balance out for elite crews so obviously Gremlins/Tara's crew/ summoners will run rampant and do well. Are Gremlins best equipped at this gg17? Maybe? Is that reason to cuddle them to the ground...no

If the Gremlin flavor is based around the 3 or 4 undercosted models then I don`t really mind. I play Arcanists too and if they change wind gamin, Practiced Production/Raptor thing and Sandeep I really wouldn`t consider the flavor "lost". I also play Guild and I`m advocating changing of Nellie too (even though she`s the best Guild master out there).
 

Like I said, you don`t have to remove reckless from the game. You just have to take it off 2-4 models or Adjust their cost.

[Dogmantra]

Hot take: Burt isn't as big a problem for faction balance because as a mercenary, anyone can take him.