Claim Jump

[Math Mathonwy]

What are your thoughts on the always available GG17 Scheme?

I'm thinking that it might be a bit too easy. If you outactivate your opponent, it's pretty easy points. Especially if the center line is diagonal - then you don't need outactivation all that much, either. Though somewhat intensive on the AP front, it's not too bad compared to the rest of the new Schemes.

I see my opponents taking it really, really often and have been taking it quite a bit myself as well lately.

What are your experiences?

[Bathysphere]

I've founds that it can be easy to block if the taker isn't careful. But other than that it's fairly easy to find models that can do it on their own, i.e. Necropunks, Hodgepodge Emissary, any showgirl with Colette, etc.

As a Hamelin player, my opponents rarely get to score it 

[Gnomezilla]

I don't think the new ease in dropping markers for no AP was fully known when the requirements were dropped from three markers to two. It's a great scheme but it shouldn't be always available. If it drops to a numbered scheme that will be fantastic. Maybe move the maligned Search the Ruins to 'always' to encourage more head-butting in the center?

[Dogmantra]

It's way too easy imo. Nearly every game I play at least one person takes it, and some factions (e.g. Gremlins) have an obscenely good time doing it thanks to out activation and the number of models who can interact, move, interact (Merris, The First Mate and Fingers tend to be my go tos but with a little healing, even a single Bayou Gremlin can manage it on its own)

[Bengt]

Malifaux Raptors doesn't care about out-activation!  As Claim Jump just says enemy model a Peon can block it, and with the 40 mm base it can be within 2" of two markers unless they are nearly 6" apart. And once you have enough markers to score it despite any Raptors they all go away when you do...

[Ludvig]

I've played way to little in gg17 but hasn't this bern a thing with all the always available schemes? Since it's always there it pays off to have a reliable dtrategy for it.

The problem is that if you make it require a buttload of markers there are some crews that will puke out markers and probably do it without breaking a sweat but a lot more crews that will not have the option to compete. 

Having something like dig their graves always available at least requires both marker-dropping and killing. Not sure that scheme is considered super hard either but it's a nice combination of requiring killing and marker-dropping so a modificarion to it might be nice. It would need wording like reduce to 0 wounds or something to not make wind gamin ruin it.

Take prisoner could be always available, I've never heard anyone say it was too easy so the fact that it is always there might make people find more reliable strategies for doing it.

The always scheme could be something like controlling two of three claim markers near the middle to force competition. You would always place them and both players could always flip them without having the scheme so you could fake it.

[Ryin]

For those that think it's terribly too easy, try playing it as Guild. It's not undoable, but I certainly wouldn't call it "easy" The only time I really outactivate anyone is with Nellie and usually only on the first turn and while her and her crew are certainly decent at it, I still wouldn't call it a cinch. She's much better at denying Claim Jump than scoring with it.

Or, maybe it's just me. I always find CJ to be more miss than hit whenever I try and take it unless I'm playing someone like Reva, but then, I have Necropunks and she's pretty well good with any scheme/strat. But I play Guild, Reva/(resser)Tara and Pandora more than anything else.

[Math Mathonwy]

11 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I've played way to little in gg17 but hasn't this bern a thing with all the always available schemes? Since it's always there it pays off to have a reliable dtrategy for it.

I haven't seen any of the previous always availables be quite this ubiqutous but I do agree that balancing the always available Scheme is difficult.

As for the suggestions on Raptors and how Guild have it rough - yeah, outactivation is needed for it to be easy and that is always a bit tricky for the Guild and yes, Raptors are indeed super annoying here also (it's amazing how many Schemes and Strats they counter). But that is a bit beside the point, I think.

[Ludvig]

A line in the sand isn't harder than this for most crews, very few ap to get it done compared to claim jump. It was harder for those who actually needed to interact but the right crew would probably always take alits over a lot of other schemes in gg-17 if it was still there. The difference was that some suited schemes were much too easy in the original book. I think the other schemes have gotten harder compared to the much too easy auto-takes in the original book, not that the always scheme has gotten easier.

 

[Dogmantra]

14 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I've played way to little in gg17 but hasn't this bern a thing with all the always available schemes? Since it's always there it pays off to have a reliable dtrategy for it.

The problem is that if you make it require a buttload of markers there are some crews that will puke out markers and probably do it without breaking a sweat but a lot more crews that will not have the option to compete. 

Having something like dig their graves always available at least requires both marker-dropping and killing. Not sure that scheme is considered super hard either but it's a nice combination of requiring killing and marker-dropping so a modificarion to it might be nice. It would need wording like reduce to 0 wounds or something to not make wind gamin ruin it.

Take prisoner could be always available, I've never heard anyone say it was too easy so the fact that it is always there might make people find more reliable strategies for doing it.

The always scheme could be something like controlling two of three claim markers near the middle to force competition. You would always place them and both players could always flip them without having the scheme so you could fake it.

I like this post, and I think Dig Their Graves could make a pretty interesting Always Available in 2018. For Take Prisoner or your original scheme, I think the issue is that the Always scheme seems to always be a marker scheme in order to always allow for bluffing if something like Plant Explosives or its gaining grounds siblings show up. ALitS is probably not the best for that one given how the markers need to be exactly on the centreline but I figured it was by design.

Your first sentence is totally the issue imo. I think Claim Jump is easy enough for certain factions that it kind of undermines the idea of a changeable pool of schemes in the same way that ALitS did for Colette, there is often very little reason to not just bring Merris or whoever is best in your faction to do it on their own and just pick the easiest of the other four schemes and by extension encouraging fixed lists based on getting the Always Scheme 100% of the time, which I think is not really something Malifaux is designed to handle. I wonder if this is even avoidable with any Always scheme, if there will always be a crew or model that can just do it super easily. So I'm a proponent of adding one more layer of variance in the Always scheme, having maybe three schemes it could be, with each one specifically being more difficult for the models that are good at the others. I figure you could use the total of the flipped scheme cards to work it out which I guess isn't perfect - it ties it to the number schemes so the Low scheme will always be there if you flip a pair of aces sadly but it doesn't add any more steps to determining the schemes.

[Bengt]

2 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

I figure you could use the total of the flipped scheme cards to work it out which I guess isn't perfect - it ties it to the number schemes so the Low scheme will always be there if you flip a pair of aces sadly but it doesn't add any more steps to determining the schemes.

Using the difference instead of the sum will make it a bit less predictable. Or you could just have a table with brackets and keep flipping until you get five unique schemes, the whole getting the schemes from the flip of only two cards may be a darling that need to be killed. You could of course also flip straight from your scheme deck, but having a table will still let you make some schemes more common than others. In any case I think the most important part is getting rid of the always scheme.

[wizuriel]

replace the always scheme with 3 new schemes based on the color of the cards and call it the common schemes

double black

double red

mix

 

slightly off topic, but if GG18 is open to changing stuff like the always scheme, something else that could be fun is for the initialization have players flip to see who is attacker and defender and have some schemes/strats reflect that. Example take prisoner could be an attacker only scheme and body guard a defender scheme. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Or just get rid of suited and always available schemes and flip 5 fully random schemes each game.

[Dogmantra]

12 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

slightly off topic, but if GG18 is open to changing stuff like the always scheme, something else that could be fun is for the initialization have players flip to see who is attacker and defender and have some schemes/strats reflect that. Example take prisoner could be an attacker only scheme and body guard a defender scheme. 

I would very strongly be against that. I don't want to luck into getting a worse scheme pool than my opponent because of a single card flip. Asymmetrical schemes should stick to story encounters imo, or have some way of influencing them beyond random chance.

2 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Or just get rid of suited and always available schemes and flip 5 fully random schemes each game.

It's just so neat and cute and I love it though

[Ludvig]

Not fond of assymetrical pools either. A bad pool is fun because both players have the same crap to work with.

Gg is made to play the game in a comptetition setting so assymetry isn't desireable. Story encounters are fun if you like that but gg should stay away from it I think.