Models in Gremlins which you feel are a bit lackluster

[Macumazahn]

1 hour ago, EpicWaffle said:

Havne't seen anyone talking about him, but there is almost no occasion where I would bring Mancha Roja with me. He has a lot of good stff, but he eats resorces like crazy and I never manage to do something ''important'' aside from punchng a couple of times something before having him dead, since it's impossible to hide him. Also, for 10ss we have way better choices.. 

I use Mancha Roja a lot with Mah Tucket and the Brewmaster; the extra layer of defense that "Challenge" brings to the table is great, especially for Brewie. Imagine the amount of Wp duels you force with some careful positioning, and you can make use of the "Pull their hair back" upgrade of the Brewmaster to one-shot some models.

[Math Mathonwy]

7 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

My preferred "fix" to Som'er is based on the fact I'm disappointed in the Lenny errata. I'd rather have Lenny remain able to hand to masters but switch Thinkin Luck to a or . Weirdly I think it'd be a slight power down to Som'er (who has to use Do It Like Dis for a much less desirable suit if he wants to get his own Thinkin Luck) and a slight power up to Ophelia (who can use cards of a less commonly desired suit to hit Thinkin Luck and save the rams for her friends).

That's very clever!

7 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

Well, I'd argue that if you're playing Zoraida you should probably be bringing a Nurse anyway so it's less 12 stones to facilitate a combo and more like 6 stones plus something you were going to bring anyway

Sorta kinda yeah, but when the Nurse is trying to keep up with the Shinobi (and keeping him in meds), I've had difficulty using her for the normal Zoraida stuff. Also the Nurse tends to die easier than normal when she's following the Shinobi. Might just be that I need to learn to position better, though!

[wizuriel]

1 hour ago, Dogmantra said:

My preferred "fix" to Som'er is based on the fact I'm disappointed in the Lenny errata. I'd rather have Lenny remain able to hand to masters but switch Thinkin Luck to a or . Weirdly I think it'd be a slight power down to Som'er (who has to use Do It Like Dis for a much less desirable suit if he wants to get his own Thinkin Luck) and a slight power up to Ophelia (who can use cards of a less commonly desired suit to hit Thinkin Luck and save the rams for her friends). Or perhaps make the kickback 1/2/3 based on the damage flip? IDK, but I think the current damage flips are cool and good.

Problem imo is even though that would be a bit less desirable for Somer, it doesn't really hurt him or his crew. Somer can still get an insane damage track, easy access to  flips if you bring Sammy and encourgement and with bigger hat than yours he can get those  and still cheat with bayou 2 card. He has way too much going on to support that kind of damage track (masters like Ophelia and Lady J that just bring damage have only a slightly better track).

Honestly I don't think there is anything Wyrd can do to make Ophelia viable (without her going blatant OP) while Somer is just a bit under her for doing damage (and with the support he can do I would argue he is more reliable at doing damage even when Lenny gave her ).

[codingCaptor]

43 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

Problem imo is even though that would be a bit less desirable for Somer, it doesn't really hurt him or his crew. Somer can still get an insane damage track, easy access to  flips if you bring Sammy and encourgement and with bigger hat than yours he can get those  and still cheat with bayou 2 card. He has way too much going on to support that kind of damage track (masters like Ophelia and Lady J that just bring damage have only a slightly better track).

Honestly I don't think there is anything Wyrd can do to make Ophelia viable (without her going blatant OP) while Somer is just a bit under her for doing damage (and with the support he can do I would argue he is more reliable at doing damage even when Lenny gave her ).

Ophelia has 2 problems.    One is that Somer deals as much damage as she does in most situations, and has better support options than her.    Toning down Somer (in any way)  Makes Ophelia a more compelling option.   She, like most of the problem children in Gremlins, isn't a BAD master, she's just overshadowed by our good masters.

The second problem is that all of Ophelia's cool tricks and support options require Kin, of which most are mediocre.   Raph/Rami/Pere all could use a little touch up defensively to allow them to see more play.

 

I like the idea of changing thinkin' luck to a different suit, but you have to remember that there's a gremlin sub-section for each suit.    Bayou's may hate Crows, but pigs LOVE them for healing flips, so changing it to crows would probably just shift Somer's power builds towards a pig heavy tankier list.   Similarly,  Tomes are common on the good triggers for most of our constructs and casters, which'll just make Lightning Bugs see more play with somer.     Not saying it's a bad change, I really like it, it's just... it more rearranges Somer's power as opposed to straight reducing it.

[Macumazahn]

1 hour ago, wizuriel said:

Honestly I don't think there is anything Wyrd can do to make Ophelia viable (without her going blatant OP)

I, however, thing Ophelia is the easiest master to make viable, simply because her main shctick is not really insane damage, but the ability to get upgrades on the fly.

Change her upgrades to ANYTHING aside from dealing damage in slightly diffrent ways, and allow her to cicle trough upgrades, without needing to use them and that's it.

I don't know, she could have guns that strip cover, or somethign like the net gun of McCabe so she can paralize, or something that messes with the DF, or armor, of the enemy models... anything but raw damage, and suddenly she brings things to the table that no other gremlin master has.

[EpicWaffle]

Yeah, Ophelia has the problem of being a one dimensional master, where masters like Somer and Wong can do both damages and something else really well. I really can't understand why you see tuning down Somer as a way of buffing Ophelia, neither I see the problem with her. She's not unplayable, and if you want to play her, you can win too (just did so a couple of tournaments ago) , with a good crew and some tactic. But for the most part, she's a no-brain master, with a couple of easy trick to rely on but with the focus on dealing damages in any way possible. Now, is she competitive? I don't think so, but is it necessary for all masters to be competitive? I think that not only it isn't, but that would be also really hard to achieve! Can't imagine how hard (if not impossible) would be to make every master ina a faction well balanced and with an equal amount of power under the belt. 

I for instance would love to see a buff to Brewie in any way, not much to make him competitive or so, but to make him playable without giving for granted that you're gonna loose, unless you're against a new player. Something to make him be "viable" and that actually would work properly for him. Mah is on the same place, where her kit is a mess, and she has no "theme" to the crew aside "bring some people that has a good Ml". 

I think that Ophelia isn't strong as the big 3 (Wong, Somer Zipp), but isn't bad at all! It comes down to

why would you play Ophelia? Because I want to  

 

[Macumazahn]

34 minutes ago, EpicWaffle said:

I think that Ophelia isn't strong as the big 3 (Wong, Somer Zipp), but isn't bad at all! It comes down to

why would you play Ophelia? Because I want to  

 

That's nice and all, but why would you want to play her, if she's nothing but a boring version of those three?

Some upgrades to give her some spice wouldn't go amiss at all.

[Dogmantra]

2 hours ago, codingCaptor said:

 Similarly,  Tomes are common on the good triggers for most of our constructs and casters, which'll just make Lightning Bugs see more play with somer.     Not saying it's a bad change, I really like it, it's just... it more rearranges Somer's power as opposed to straight reducing it.

Bugs don't have a tome trigger

That's kinda why I thought tomes in the end.

[EpicWaffle]

19 minutes ago, Macumazahn said:

That's nice and all, but why would you want to play her, if she's nothing but a boring version of those three?

Some upgrades to give her some spice wouldn't go amiss at all.

Oh yeah your idea was fine and quite interesting, I thought I addressed it! What I was focusing on was the argument about toning down Somer to make Ophelia shine. You don't ruin a draw to make the one someone else made looks prettier  

[spooky_squirrel]

On 4/5/2017 at 0:39 AM, Dogmantra said:

In support of b], Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu is an incredibly disruptive ability. Its main power isn't in making you deal lots of damage, it's in draining cards from your opponent. When your damage flip is on a single , you have a ~60% chance of getting weak, and I definitely play around the assumption that a damage flip on negatives will probably be weak. You can't make that assumption for Moon Shinobis, and you have to trust chance to get you a low flip. Cheating to put people on a damage is a core part of the game, but Shinobis ignore that and instead force your opponent to cheat to beat if they want to avoid taking a lot of damage. It also turns defensive abilities into a liability (Yin, Jack Daw and Zoraida are good examples, all of which give out an inherent to hit them for Shinobis) and imo together those are disruptive enough to make for a true "negative play experience" where the rules are a kind of bait and switch, teaching people the mechanics one way then pulling the rug out and making them work a different way. I know when I play Moon Shinobis with new players they often find them really hard to get their head around and I think even for a seasoned player they do fundamentally change the way you approach a core mechanic. It's also why I think they have to have fairly low Ml to stop them being an unstoppable powerhouse of double positive damage flips.

anyway I flippin love em

 

The Moon Shinobi's passive ability is so disruptive that I don't play them against newer players--it muddies the waters and hurts everything that they would do against (nearly) the rest of the Malifaux model line defensively. This makes them frustrating even for non-new players. There's also the whole "killing a full health Teddy in a single activation" thing that can happen, especially if you're using Brewmaster's Swill on the Moon Shinobi before sending them in and you know where the Black Joker is at (in hand or discard). Add in their ability to pick Df or Wp to bypass triggers or affect margin of success, and it's a nasty package for its cost.

I don't think reckless would be the right direction to go with them because of the way their damage works, though Sway or From the Shadows would fit their fluff quite well. However, it would mitigate their main weakness (shooting/being dealt with at range) in a significant way; so any change would need to be carefully considered. Especially considering their TT connection through Brewmaster and the force multiplicative way that TT can work.

[Omenbringer]

10 hours ago, Ludvig said:

If you don't like Shinobi you haven't tried them together with nurses. Positives to everything and armour +2, yes please! I think a lot of the "bad" models in gremlins are underused because some models are just too good for their low stone cost. Burt Jebsen springs to mind. 

I think a lot of our bad models are examples of your Nurse-Shinobi combo. Making them work requires either expensive combos which pigeon hole you or require out of faction models to pull off (and not all Masters can hire the required models). It is also unfortunate that a lot of our recent offerings seem better out of faction than in.

The low cost thing is a common argument however very few models inflict anywhere near the amount of damage on their own models that gremlins do in order to function at peak performance. As a faction Gremlins are not that durable...even the Pigapult with its high Armor tends to crumple easily.

When you build your faction identity upon synergy and self-inflicted damage to increase performance, those models which do the former best and the latter least are always going to be the best choice.

[Ludvig]

I agree that wave 3 seemed more for the benefit of Mei Feng than gremlins which seems really off to me to but the recent stuff as in wave 4 seems to be very gremlin-focused?

The thing is that not every model will be good with every master, some models are more or less master exclusive. If a strong combo exists then the model needs o be considered with access to that combo for balancing reasons. 

As for damaging yourself: Burt Jebsen doesn't harm himself at all when he gets 4 to 5 crits and if you don't like that he takes a point of damage from reckless you can take dirty cheater to counteract it. The pigapult is squishy if the opponent can get a model to it and that model ignores armor but that's a significant feat if you placed it carefully. In points it is comparable to Hans who has 5 wounds and no armor + needs LoS so can't be deployed in the same defensive manner. They both have a combined wp/df of 11. The main difference is that Hans can't fling his buddies across the entire table to easily score some schemes that other factions consider extremely difficult. 

Visavi models only working in some combos that is quite common. How often do you see guild riflemen or Dashel without other guardsmen? In arcanists there are a lot of frozen heart models and beasts that only ever see play with their combo-master. Too me thatisn't poor deaign but good design, if some models are appropriately powered with the right combo but outshone by others in other crews I think they are in a good spot. Eachfaction has too many models for each one of them to have a perfect niche. Now if a generally good option is still better than the thematic option in the specificcrew then there is a problem. I'm not sure how viable moon shinobi are even too Brewmaster or Zoraida, maybe they are still lackluster there?

[Omenbringer]

As you point out our problem is that the so called "models designed for a specific master" are often still lackluster in comparison to others not necessarily designed for those Masters (Moon Shinobi vs Fermented River Monks are a good example of this). That is poor design.  I would like to see the next edition really focus back on the thematics of the game and tie benefits to keywords in a much more significant way than they currently do (i.e. Model A provides a beneficial suit to model B when also in the crew). As is, often times the Characteristics of a model don't really matter within the context of the game (you would see Rotten belles a lot less in Resser crews and Seamus a lot more if that exceptional Lure Action they have, with its two required suits was tied to him providing one of them as a passive ability).

The Pigapult flinging models around the table is not what it was really designed to do, it is more of a thing players have found to be useful over the substantial negatives of trying to attack with it every turn. Hiring it to increase your models mobility can be worthwhile (I would still argue that as a faction mobility is not really something we struggle with so hiring it is often inefficient to other options), while trying to get it to function as an artillery battery consistently is not (it requires significant inputs and additional hires to pull off, aside from limiting how your crew deploys and moves about). As for getting at it, none of my players have seemed to have an issue doing that consistently or before it can cause significant issues for them, nor getting around that high Armor value (only really significant if it hasn't damaged itself trying to fire each turn).

The goal should be to have things be consistently viable options, particularly within their own thematic crew. As is this is often not the case. That is not good for a business that makes most of its money from selling miniatures (wonder if Privateer Press has made the money back on all those Deliverers that get overlooked in favor of better options?).

[Math Mathonwy]

On 4/14/2017 at 9:53 PM, Omenbringer said:

As you point out our problem is that the so called "models designed for a specific master" are often still lackluster in comparison to others not necessarily designed for those Masters (Moon Shinobi vs Fermented River Monks are a good example of this). That is poor design.  I would like to see the next edition really focus back on the thematics of the game and tie benefits to keywords in a much more significant way than they currently do (i.e. Model A provides a beneficial suit to model B when also in the crew). As is, often times the Characteristics of a model don't really matter within the context of the game (you would see Rotten belles a lot less in Resser crews and Seamus a lot more if that exceptional Lure Action they have, with its two required suits was tied to him providing one of them as a passive ability).

I can sorta see both sides of the coin here. While I do agree that having thematic models as valid chocies for their own crews is important (and anti-synergy like Bushwhackers with Mah is entirely inexcusable), but too much and it will result in very cookie-cutter list builds (given a specific Master) pretty easily.

If Rotten Belles' Lure was like that, I doubt that we would see them with anyone except Seamus and he would load up on them probably even more than now since they would be less often taken into account when the opponent is building their force. I definitely don't want a situation where a Strat dictates a Master and the choice of Master dictates the list but that would be a real possibility if the thematic synergy were taken too far.

If all Brewmaster forces start with Wesley, Fingers, Whiskey Golem, two Moons Shinobis, and an Akaname, that will get stale quite fast.

[Omenbringer]

On 4/15/2017 at 4:04 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

I can sorta see both sides of the coin here. While I do agree that having thematic models as valid chocies for their own crews is important (and anti-synergy like Bushwhackers with Mah is entirely inexcusable), but too much and it will result in very cookie-cutter list builds (given a specific Master) pretty easily.

If all Brewmaster forces start with Wesley, Fingers, Whiskey Golem, two Moons Shinobis, and an Akaname, that will get stale quite fast.

Not arguing that it needs to be taken to the extreme, but as is most characteristics are nothing more than "flavor text." If the Characteristic doesn't really add anything then why even bother putting it on there?

As for the Brewmaster, well I would prefer to see a list like that over a list of random top-tier crap that makes him competitive but has very little reason to work with him. To each his own.

[codingCaptor]

What it seems you're both looking for is a variety of competitive builds.  

One way to accomplish that is by focusing heavily on Master synergy, such that every master has their own pool of models that they pull from and there's often no real good reason to branch out into another masters pool.   This means that instead of one gremlin build to rule them all, there's 8 gremlins builds, one per master.    This isn't necessarily a BAD design philosophy, but it does have flaws depending on how heavily its applied across a faction.

What Wyrd seems to have decided to use instead of that is Strategy/Scheme synergy, wherein certain models inside a faction (including certain master abilities) are better suited for accomplishing certain goals over another master/model.   A Whole slew of bayou gremlins is good in interference, but probably not a great choice in something like Collect the Bounty.   What's more, they've tied it very loosely into a synergistic system in order to allow players to accomplish these goals in a variety of ways depending on their own playstyle.   Of course, this also has its downsides.   The easy one to point out is that now versatility is valued more over most stats, and models like Burt Jebsen can just take over every list in every masters crew because they're just that good/versatile that you want them in every list as opposed to tailoring a crew for a specific scenario.

For example, Frame for Murder is very often in scheme pools now, and gremlins have a hard time not giving their opponent 2 points because our faction only really has access to one CC, and that's "Death."    This is great for models like Bayou Gators, that are essentially 5 point paralysis dispensers (I mean, they could use a buff to become GOOD at it, but shhhh not the point.)   as that gives us the ability to lock down potential frame targets and deny the opponent points while not having our faces punched in.    Good for every game?  Hell no, gators are a huge investment compared to just murdering a thing.   But situationally useful models (Where those situations are known during the hiring phase)  is a good way of accomplishing the variety that y'all are looking for.

 

I'm sure there are other tools in Wyrd's belt for ensuring competitive variety.   Synergy among keywords isn't the end all answer, although I suspect it WILL play an integral part in that solution.

[Math Mathonwy]

On ‎17‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 3:24 AM, Omenbringer said:

Not arguing that it needs to be taken to the extreme, but as is most characteristics are nothing more than "flavor text." If the Characteristic doesn't really add anything then why even bother putting it on there?

Well, almost all of them do something at least - can't think of any that don't do anything off the top of my head, though some are indeed really minimal like "Rooster" (only for Saddle or is it somewhere else as well?) though I may be overlooking something.

On ‎17‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 3:24 AM, Omenbringer said:

As for the Brewmaster, well I would prefer to see a list like that over a list of random top-tier crap that makes him competitive but has very little reason to work with him. To each his own.

Oh, I'm not defending status quo - just noting that it is a difficult balance to strike.

[Omenbringer]

I would say the gremlin faction uses the Characteristics better than most...at least the Pig and Gremlin ones anyway. Most factions feature a lot of virtually useless characteristics.