Moments of Levity

[Freman]

Thinking about it, with the majority of Leveticus's themed crew having minimum damage 3 (Desolation, Ashes, and Alyce's gun), and the ability to turn a killed unit into an Abomination on a  trigger, the large number of rats that Hamelin runs with are a distinct disadvantage. Even Killjoy is less scary once he's been turned into an Abomination.

[keget]

1 hour ago, Freman said:

Thinking about it, with the majority of Leveticus's themed crew having minimum damage 3 (Desolation, Ashes, and Alyce's gun), and the ability to turn a killed unit into an Abomination on a  trigger, the large number of rats that Hamelin runs with are a distinct disadvantage. Even Killjoy is less scary once he's been turned into an Abomination.

Well then how did the ratman win 8-5?

[Freman]

We were playing Guard the Stash, with Mark for Death, Eliminate the Leadership, Claim Jump, Tail 'Em, Leave your Mark. 9/10//Doubles

I took Mark for Death and Claim Jump

He took Tail 'Em and Eliminate the Leadership

First turn, when he had activation advantage, he dumped Killjoy on Leveticus and "killed" him.

He got 3 from Guard the Stash, 3 from Tail 'Em, and 2 from Eliminate the Leadership.

I got 1 from Guard the Stash, 3 from Frame for Murder, and 1 from Claim Jump

I would have scored better on Guard the Stash if I'd remembered to engage enemies with Abominations while keeping them within two inches of the stashes, but my opponent did well at using Rat Kings to eat my scheme markers keeping me from scoring on Claim Jump. Desolation Engine ended up walking up to a Crooligan, marking it, then killing it with his melee expert, but that left him pretty much out of the rest of the game. He did drop markers and got the point from Claim Jump though. Ashes ended up tying up Hamelin and Baby Kade for three turns, so did a reasonable disruption job too.

I had four turns of reasonable hands, but turn five I ended up with 7 being my highest card and no stones left, I was lucky on a few flips, but didn't have anything to cheat with.

I think, if Eliminate the Leadership is in the pool, I'll take Survivalist on Leve. People seem to want to kill him for some reason and the extra AP required to bring him down might prove valuable over the course of a game.

[keget]

7 hours ago, Freman said:

We were playing Guard the Stash, with Mark for Death, Eliminate the Leadership, Claim Jump, Tail 'Em and one other that I forget. 9/10//Doubles

I took Mark for Death and Claim Jump

He took Tail 'Em and Eliminate the Leadership

First turn, when he had activation advantage, he dumped Killjoy on Leveticus and "killed" him.

He got 3 from Guard the Stash, 3 from Tail 'Em, and 2 from Eliminate the Leadership.

I got 1 from Guard the Stash, 3 from Frame for Murder, and 1 from Claim Jump

I would have scored better on Guard the Stash if I'd remembered to engage enemies with Abominations while keeping them within two inches of the stashes, but my opponent did well at using Rat Kings to eat my scheme markers keeping me from scoring on Claim Jump. Desolation Engine ended up walking up to a Crooligan, marking it, then killing it with his melee expert, but that left him pretty much out of the rest of the game. He did drop markers and got the point from Claim Jump though. Ashes ended up tying up Hamelin and Baby Kade for three turns, so did a reasonable disruption job too.

I had four turns of reasonable hands, but turn five I ended up with 7 being my highest card and no stones left, I was lucky on a few flips, but didn't have anything to cheat with.

I think, if Eliminate the Leadership is in the pool, I'll take Survivalist on Leve. People seem to want to kill him for some reason and the extra AP required to bring him down might prove valuable over the course of a game.

Thanks for the info.  I just don't get as many games in as I would like and thus must try and learn from others games.  The one game (of a massive 3) that had Eliminate the Leadership, it was taken.  But it was a Tara crew, that lost its Nothing Beast, before it could attack with it's fast.  I think I will follow your advice and drop Oathkeeper for Survivor if EL is in the pool.  Do you think Tail em would have been better?  I don't think of ratman as mobile, but we don't have a local player to know for sure.

Steven

[crimzzen]

So what models have you "stapled" to your Levi crew?  For me it's been ashes & dust and a necropunk.  A&D just facilitates so much trickery while remaining difficult to remove and doing great damage and the necropunk has meant that Claim Jump is always on the table for me.

[Joel]

54 minutes ago, crimzzen said:

So what models have you "stapled" to your Levi crew?  For me it's been ashes & dust and a necropunk.  A&D just facilitates so much trickery while remaining difficult to remove and doing great damage and the necropunk has meant that Claim Jump is always on the table for me.

Nothing other than waifs - I'm keeping all my other options open

[daniello_s]

1 hour ago, crimzzen said:

So what models have you "stapled" to your Levi crew?  

Levi loves all of his options. There is no real staple model for him.

[Freman]

4 hours ago, keget said:

Thanks for the info.  I just don't get as many games in as I would like and thus must try and learn from others games.  The one game (of a massive 3) that had Eliminate the Leadership, it was taken.  But it was a Tara crew, that lost its Nothing Beast, before it could attack with it's fast.  I think I will follow your advice and drop Oathkeeper for Survivor if EL is in the pool.  Do you think Tail em would have been better?  I don't think of ratman as mobile, but we don't have a local player to know for sure.

Steven

Tail 'Em wouldn't have turned out well for me. Tail 'Em is a condition, which Hamelin (and Nix) can choose not to take, and he didn't have any Henchmen that I could have applied it to. I could probably have done Eliminate the Leadership myself, if I'd concentrated on killing Hamelin, but I didn't expect to end up with Ashes and Dust in base to base with Hamelin.

[keget]

29 minutes ago, Freman said:

Tail 'Em wouldn't have turned out well for me. Tail 'Em is a condition, which Hamelin (and Nix) can choose not to take, and he didn't have any Henchmen that I could have applied it to. I could probably have done Eliminate the Leadership myself, if I'd concentrated on killing Hamelin, but I didn't expect to end up with Ashes and Dust in base to base with Hamelin.

Great point.  I hope I won't make that mistake in the future.

[keget]

All,

I got a Levi game in, but swapped the necropunk for a belle.  I also swapped out oathkeeper for survivalist.  Here is my battle summary.  Std Deployment, Squatter rights, CJ, Eliminate the leadership, dig their graves, accusation, and hidden trap.

His army – Wong (some upgrades), McT, Fingers (stilts), 2XSwine curse, 2X lighting bug, old cranky.  I hate all these guys…Gremlins are strong and my opponent is the best we have playing.

Final score (6-8).  I got 1 pt SR, 3 for EtL, and 2 for Dig.  He got 3 for SQ, 3 for Dig, and 2 for accuse.

Big picture points:  I took out Necro for belle thinking that I could lure things into open for Levi, pull off Squats, and make dig easier.  While the belle did fine, I think I would have been better with necro and dropping dig, and taking CJ.  He did not have enough models to cover event the short centerline.  Other specific model comments below.

Levi – Turn 1, jumps to A&D to get some shots off at a lighting bug in hard cover.  Lucked out with 3 dam on first shot (even with neg flip) and 2 on second focus shot.  He was hurt 1 from reckless, so I got a abomb.  Turn 2, gets exploded on by Wong, and only stayed on board due to survivalist.  Can’t channel, and can’t target anything not in hard cover…so walks flips squat, misses a neg shot, and turns into waif.  Turn 3, puts a bunch of damage onto Fingers, and slow.  Turn 4, put tons of damage on McT.  Turn 5, flip Squat.

A&D – Turn 1, 2X walk, place scheme, broken up, and reforms.  Mistake here as I did not care about getting it in cover (McT ignores it).  This allowed Wong to go first and explode of of him, and break him apart.  McT, eats a scheme marker, pushes with trigger to get free…focus and shoots core.  As he is glowie he ignores armor, he ignores cover, so 7 damage (his 4^th cheated sever card that turn).  Dust keeps trying to help.  Puts finial hit on fingers, puts finial hit on McT.

Bete – Started out to help protect against McT.  Maybe should have had her down so she could have popped out when the first abomb did.  Turn 1, 2X walk.  Turn 2, got blown up by wong, buried, popped out when a abomb was killed, and paralyzed a swine cursed (could not reach old cranky, hate that guy).  Not sure exactly what she did on turn 3, but popped out of fingers on 3 and charged wong.  Paralyzed him and put some hurt on.  Turn 4 flurry on wong to hurt. Turn 5, flurry on swine cursed, killing him.

Johan – Turn 1 and 2, walked and placed one scheme.  Turn 3 put some hurt on fingers (he takes so much to kill). Turn 4 walks to trap wong so he can’t squell, and hurts him. Turn 5 flips squat.

Flesh Construct – Turn 1, 2X walk, and takes a bunch of damage from McT.  Turn 2, is fast from core, and walks, then charge old cranky, killing him.  Gets a reactivate and finished off first swine.  Then dies.

Belle – Turn 1, walk and failed lure on L-bug.  Turn 2 lures fingers, who gets 1 push away after pull, and removes his last card in had to get the flesh reactivate.  Turn 3, slowed and accused by L-bug.  She hit back, and put him on one wound (thought I would get a dig point on turn 4, but McT killed him first, again great player).  She does not do anything to help the rest of the game.

Abomb – Only got 1 summoned this game.  The first one got me a card, and on turn 3 tied up wong.  Good 4 points.  Summoned one did one walk and was killed before he activated.

Waifs – Did their jobs, used one to make life harder for McT to shoot, but he was able to work around the issue I tried to cause.  One did hit a L-bug to do 1 damage.

Even though I killed all his guys, could not do it fast enough (great thing about Malifaux, is you can lose all your guys and still win).  I think the necropunk, could have gotten me full CJ instead of the 2 I got on dig, and have saved me activations.  While he did not take EtL, the survivalist payed off, and let Levi get an activation on turn 2 (but is a nothing activation).  Needed to have reformed A&D in a safer place, too many things could blow through armor in this crew.  Funny event of game.  I had 3 on init, and he flipped 2.  So he stoned, and so do I.  He flips a 2 so I would have won, but I spend that stone to turn my 3 into a 1.  Wow that stunk.  As always, your comments appreciated, advice in losses would be great.

Thanks,

Steven

[Joel]

You don't have to stone initiative until you see his result after stoning.

[keget]

5 hours ago, Joel said:

You don't have to stone initiative until you see his result after stoning.

Joel,

I agree from what I read in the book, but they way t says it I can see how one can say it just says the losing player has to elect to use a SS, but does not say he flips.  Can you point me to something more solid?  I could not find something rock solid.

Thanks, 

Steven

[Joel]

The rulebook is the correct source.  I do not have it with me at the moment however, but I will check it this evening for you.

[Nikodemus]

Small rulebook page 31: 

"Beginning with the player who has the lowest value card each player may elect to reflip her card (or cards) by spending a Soulstone from her Soulstone Pool"

Sounds to me like it's done one at a time starting with the initial loser.

[Adran]

2. Use Soulstones
Beginning with the player who has the lowest value card each player may elect to
reflip her card (or cards) by spending a Soulstone from her Soulstone Pool, even if
one or more players flipped a Joker. Each player may only reflip using a Soulstone
once per Initiative Phase. If the players are tied after choosing whether or not to use
a Soulstone, both players must reflip.

 

I always read that as lowest value elects to flip, and then flips before the second player has to elect to flip

[Joel]

thanks for the quotes guys - you are right, just like a duel, the current loser makes the decisions first.

[Goopy]

I think this debate should be done in the rules discussion forum rather than five pages into a master's thread. 

I am fine with either interpretation, but I don't see conclusive evidence either way, and therefore can not go to my meta and make a case for one or the other. 

I would probably do it your guys way, but the counter argument is 

            1. It's not a normal duel, you can stone to reflip on jokers. 

            2. The rules say 'elect' to reflip which could be interpreted as the loser 'elects' first to stone then the winner then then both flip.

            3. In other duels, one player elects to use a stone (to add a positive flip or suit or whatever), then the opponent elects to use a stone before they flip. Why should it be different just because it is initiative? 

I think these are pretty powerful arguments that someone could make and I am uneasy to just make a decision based on what I think 'should' happen. 

Here is a link to another discussion. The most popular 'answer' may be different, but that doesn't mean a whole lot until Wyrd makes an official ruling. Please take a look for different perspectives. There may be some other arguments that I did not cover. 

 

 

[Adran]

14 hours ago, Goopy said:

I think this debate should be done in the rules discussion forum rather than five pages into a master's thread. 

I am fine with either interpretation, but I don't see conclusive evidence either way, and therefore can not go to my meta and make a case for one or the other. 

I would probably do it your guys way, but the counter argument is 

            1. It's not a normal duel, you can stone to reflip on jokers. 

            2. The rules say 'elect' to reflip which could be interpreted as the loser 'elects' first to stone then the winner then then both flip.

            3. In other duels, one player elects to use a stone (to add a positive flip or suit or whatever), then the opponent elects to use a stone before they flip. Why should it be different just because it is initiative? 

I think these are pretty powerful arguments that someone could make and I am uneasy to just make a decision based on what I think 'should' happen. 

Here is a link to another discussion. The most popular 'answer' may be different, but that doesn't mean a whole lot until Wyrd makes an official ruling. Please take a look for different perspectives. There may be some other arguments that I did not cover. 

 

 

As you've linked, its been done in the rules forum, multiple times and I think he consensus in all cases is that the flip is resolved before player 2 decided if they are spending a stone. 

Its not a duel at all, which is why it doesn't follow duel rules. Stones spent on duels are spent to modify your flip in some way. Jokers on Initiative still stop cheating, its just that there are very few cards that can cheat initative anyway. 

Cheating fate in an opposed duel uses similar language

"Each model now has the option to Cheat Fate (see pg. 19).
The model with the lower duel total must choose whether or not to Cheat Fate first. If the models’ duel totals are tied then the Defender must choose whether or not
to Cheat Fate first."

I've never known anyone to red that as the model with the higher duel total has to decide to cheat before they know what the other model cheated in. (and infact there are rules that only really work if you resolve one cheat before the next player decides to cheat or not).

 

Its not 100% conclusive, but it is strongly suggestive and consistent with with rest of the rules for player 1 to flip the card before player 2 has to elect to do so. 

[Skillmatic]

It seems like Every pool I would LOVE to use Levi, is a pool where Abombs will give up points! 

That's just a quick comment!

[Joel]

23 hours ago, Skillmatic said:

It seems like Every pool I would LOVE to use Levi, is a pool where Abombs will give up points! 

That's just a quick comment!

As long as you score more points than they do, it doesn't matter

[SurreyLee]

On 5/6/2017 at 4:04 PM, Joel said:

As long as you score more points than they do, it doesn't matter

Tell that to a certain UK Nationals winner who lost two tourneys on VP Diff @M_Ruckuss....sorry, had to throw that in there.

[Joel]

10 minutes ago, SurreyLee said:

Tell that to a certain UK Nationals winner who lost two tourneys on VP Diff @M_Ruckuss....sorry, had to throw that in there.

lol, winning games and winning events aren't always the same thing - he didn't lose those events though, just didn't come first.  

personally, I just go for winning games and let podiums sort themselves out.

[SurreyLee]

2 hours ago, Joel said:

lol, winning games and winning events aren't always the same thing - he didn't lose those events though, just didn't come first.  

personally, I just go for winning games and let podiums sort themselves out.

Ah, the luxury.....8)

I usually let the podium sort itself out and just go along.....

[Joel]

lol, I meant I just play each game individually - I don't think about anything more really.

[Joel]

I got another game in last night:

squatters rights, standard vs ressers.

 claim jump, leave mark, dig graves, tail em, set up.

i opted for a hard hitting list:

levi (iron, oath) 4ss

2 waifs

ashes and dust

2 teddies (both oath)

2 aboms

 

my opponent went for the following:

seamus (sinister Rep - others but can't remember)

yin

sybelle (banged up, bleeder lash)

datsu ba

copycat killer

belle

Doxey

 

i opted for claim jump and leave mark.  My opponent took claim jump and tail em - I'd advised him against tail em as soon as we flipped the pool, but oh well!!

long story short - he killed a teddy turn 1 - finish the job starting me off on claim jump and dropping a scrap marker in just the right place to set up ashes for turn 2.  Levi killed yin - channeling around her neg flips - then changed flanks to help with claim jump and kill Datsu too.

ashes/teddy flipped early squat markers, then proceeded to kill doxey, belle and copycat - ashes giving me two aboms from that - who sat near seamus and prevented him shooting or using zeros.

teddy then bashed sybelle to bits and he and ashes got a couple of leave your mark points turns 4 and 5.

he had only seamus left, game finished 9-0 to me