End of year thoughts for the Guild

[Tris]

Yeah, Wardens and Mounted Guards seem to maybe be good 'purchase one' choices, also, what about a Guardian?

But you probably want to have more than one guardsman with Allison, so maybe I'll try to hire both and see where it goes...

Plus, don't forget her with McCabe and his entourage of Guild Hounds

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Tris said:

Yeah, Wardens and Mounted Guards seem to maybe be good 'purchase one' choices, also, what about a Guardian?

But you probably want to have more than one guardsman with Allison, so maybe I'll try to hire both and see where it goes...

Plus, don't forget her with McCabe and his entourage of Guild Hounds

Guardians aren't guardsmen.

I haven't used them that much myself, their abilities are meh for such an expensive model. They have very low damage output, a mediocre buffing ability and not much else going for them.

[Gnomezilla]

13 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Guardians aren't guardsmen.

I haven't used them that much myself, their abilities are meh for such an expensive model. They have very low damage output, a mediocre buffing ability and not much else going for them.

The only time I could justify a guardian would be in a gimmick elite vs. elite list also involving as many steam arachnid swarms as I could get my hands on. I'd be trying to dissipate the buffer model tax among multiple models, same as witchling handler and stalkers. Even then, there's better options, like activation control--or bringing said handler (and her far superior sword) to light up all those chained attacks with burning. 

Not much happened in the construct department this year other than the release of the Brutal Emissary model. I have heard isolated reports of people defying the rare limit on attacks per turn with box/machine puppet on rare-limited model of choice, but Hoffman players have generally behaved themselves in public.

The often useful sanctioned spellcasters and the protection Singularity affords (very nice, but very short range, and the increasingly popular place effects still punch through it) have not helped as much as I'd thought with positioning. They want to attack out on the flanks but I want them close for the anti-move bubble.

[Tris]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Guardians aren't guardsmen.

Uh, bad mistake on my side, I should keep old habits up and double check before posting, thank you for the clarification

[JDAntoine]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I feel wardens are ok as single hires. They're not the most powerful 6 ss choice in the game but I feel they're in a decent place without support.

I agree, for certain set ups, often Hoffman as Master. Likewise Guild Hounds gave a function McCabe but overall I think the choices are rather niche so far and I hope that might change in the future. 

[trikk]

Wardens are also quite good with McCabe.

[4thstringer]

3 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

 

The often useful sanctioned spellcasters and the protection Singularity affords (very nice, but very short range, and the increasingly popular place effects still punch through it) have not helped as much as I'd thought with positioning. They want to attack out on the flanks but I want them close for the anti-move bubble.

Its funny, and maybe it's because I don't face much ressers or nb, but I rarely use the ss except in custom built lists trying to pump as many attacks through them as possible.

[Surrealistik]

On 2016-12-09 at 2:57 PM, LunarSol said:

Of the latest batch of releases (since Wave 3/4 basically both arrived this year) the only one I consider competitively vital is Nellie's box.  She's unique in the faction and very strong; her totem's good; Phiona is probably the next best henchman after Frank; and the Field Reporters are the cheap filler minion we've desperately lacked forever.

Next up, I rate the Emissary and Thrall as things that aren't strictly necessary, but are considerable boons to your bag.  The Thrall fills a niche as a strong, durable, high cost Minion with a lot of nice unique synergies with different masters.  The Emissary is a solid piece that's aggressively priced and provides some unique options with practice.  I wish some of the Conflux upgrades were more appealing, but its worth noting that the Brutal Conflux alone provides a solid option for him.

Everything else (DMR/Allison/Greed/Sanctioned/Queeg/Mounted) sits in a pretty good place.  None of them really feel like they're aggressively fighting for a spot, but all of them are quite playable and worth experimenting with.  Solid if a little uninspiring; a lot of them have neat situationally useful tools, and none of them are as bad as things like GG or Wastrels.

Also, two thumbs up for finally having competitive upgrades.  That is probably a larger change than anything this side of Nellie.

Queeg is great for cost effective Promises; definite powerhouse model.

[LunarSol]

Honestly, "cost effective" is probably a good way to describe all of those models at the bottom of my list.  The real problem most of them have is that they're primarily buffing models that aren't doing quite enough to make up for their below par targets or simply don't add up when the whole package is considered.  They're largely comparable to the Witchling Handler, who does some cool things, but ultimately is trying to make Stalkers into effective scheme runners by making them 7-8 stones.  NONE of these models are that far off, but its really hard to make expensive packages work in an alternating activation game that makes it really hard for 7+ stone buffers to be worth it overall.  They're all good, just not super aggressively costed.

[JDAntoine]

For the Guardsman I feel the fix could be around the corner with a Guardsman summoner (Marlow) for others I think free Upgrade designs can put them right on track.

Back to this year though, love the game, still a huge fan of the DMR and WT as I expect them to be huge improvements next to Field Reporters.

Lastly I am getting hyped by the Other Side and am 100% certain Ill pick that up aswell. 2017 is going to be awesome.

[LunarSol]

I do like the DMR, though I wish his recruitment was once per game/end of game similar to Abuela.  What I think he and Lady J really need though is a cheaper, melee focused minion.  I'd actually be up for redesigning the Exorcist in that light, but he's probably close enough to good as is.

[trikk]

Well, that would be great but imagine Justice, Queeg, Frank, 2x Recruiters and Frank and Queeg getting GM for the whole game. Talking about NPE

[LunarSol]

10 minutes ago, trikk said:

Well, that would be great but imagine Justice, Queeg, Frank, 2x Recruiters and Frank and Queeg getting GM for the whole game. Talking about NPE

Meh?  It's a Master and 30+ stones worth of models.  There are plenty of things harder to deal with just on the strength of their Df triggers without spending nearly that many stones on support.

[trikk]

Don`t look at it as support.

You have Frank with min damage 3

Recruiters with Debt have min damage 3/4

Justice has min damage 4.

All this on  to melee and possibly more attacks from Into the Fray and you can`t really kill Frank or Queeg while I have cards.

 

Also, I`m not saying this would be the greatest combo of all time but I think it had a lot of NPE potential, especially with Scales getting those extra 2 cards.

[JDAntoine]

1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

I do like the DMR, though I wish his recruitment was once per game/end of game similar to Abuela.  What I think he and Lady J really need though is a cheaper, melee focused minion.  I'd actually be up for redesigning the Exorcist in that light, but he's probably close enough to good as is.

Hes more than close enough for me :P.

The plan is rather simple and rather focused aswell. Lady J, Judge, GMR and Frank who is a GM at key turns.

It would be neat if you'd be a GM troughout the game but functionality you don't completely need it. 

I think the set up offers the competative push which we want for her. Field Reporters will fill up the rest.

[LunarSol]

27 minutes ago, trikk said:

Don`t look at it as support.

You have Frank with min damage 3

Recruiters with Debt have min damage 3/4

Justice has min damage 4.

All this on  to melee and possibly more attacks from Into the Fray and you can`t really kill Frank or Queeg while I have cards.

 

Also, I`m not saying this would be the greatest combo of all time but I think it had a lot of NPE potential, especially with Scales getting those extra 2 cards.

If min damage 4 was what the game was all about, then Justice wouldn't be as thoroughly mediocre as she is.  Treating models as if Debt was free and part of the standard damage they do is an awful way to get Guild in a position where they are always argued out of competitive options.  Realistically its a potential 2 damage over the course of the game.  It's good, but is min damage 3 actually something that should surprise you from a cost 7/8 model?  

I get what you're saying, but this is the argument that makes the models a dud in a competitive field.  It sounds good on paper, but it doesn't account for the total cost, the inflexibility of melee models needing to maintain a fairly close cohesion, or simple counter play like the ability to scalpel out the DMRs or use Pushes to move models out of formation.  If the opponent is spending AP trying to kill those models directly without having more attacks than your hand or isn't taking advantage of the ability to take advantage of your crippled hand, then... sure, that's kind of a NPE.  I'd just argue that if someone needs the opposing models to be that easy to kill... well, I'd hate to see them take on some of the models with tricks that negate attacks entirely.

[trikk]

To me the idea of NPE is usually something connected with casual/new players.

Skilled and competetive players usually try to figure out how to be a certain list instead of getting frustrated.

 

I do agree that a good player will get how this crew works and know how to take it apart (the same as the infamous Sonnia list) but its whenever you play better with your combo or he plays better against it. So this involves skill. And thats fine, right?

Remember that making someone Guild Marshal also works on Last Stand, which wasn`t pretty often used as most Guild Marshals weren`t real CC experts but with the DMR and the (0) action it might change a bit.

[LunarSol]

6 minutes ago, trikk said:

Remember that making someone Guild Marshal also works on Last Stand, which wasn`t pretty often used as most Guild Marshals weren`t real CC experts but with the DMR and the (0) action it might change a bit.

Sure, but With Me! is the kind of thing a Master should be doing, period.  It's really absurdly limited in its current applications (not as bad as the Flames of the Pit mind you...) and while the DMR helps a little, its points to try and make it work combined with extra telegraphing of what you're trying to do.

My entire argument here is basically "the DMR himself is fine, but needed more if he wanted to be a fix for models that are a bit below the curve".  Extra synergies with Last Stand is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.

[trikk]

What models that are below the curve are you talking about?

 

Basically I agree he` s cool adjustment but nothing meta-shaking

[Surrealistik]

3 hours ago, LunarSol said:

Honestly, "cost effective" is probably a good way to describe all of those models at the bottom of my list.  The real problem most of them have is that they're primarily buffing models that aren't doing quite enough to make up for their below par targets or simply don't add up when the whole package is considered.  They're largely comparable to the Witchling Handler, who does some cool things, but ultimately is trying to make Stalkers into effective scheme runners by making them 7-8 stones.  NONE of these models are that far off, but its really hard to make expensive packages work in an alternating activation game that makes it really hard for 7+ stone buffers to be worth it overall.  They're all good, just not super aggressively costed.

Here's the thing; Promises on legs for 8 SS I'd consider to be super aggressively costed in several crews given what Promises does.

[LunarSol]

7 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

Here's the thing; Promises on legs for 8 SS I'd consider to be super aggressively costed in several crews given what Promises does.

It's really good in a vacuum but 8 stones is a lot, particularly when it really only benefits mid to high cost models.  That's a really hefty tax, particularly in a faction that's not really loaded up on upgrade packing melee beaters.  It's hard to take a lot of models that benefit from it without falling way behind on model count (though debt helps.... a lot....).

Don't get me wrong, I think he's good, my original statement was that all of those models are good and worth playing.  I just think they're held back by some of the targets for the impressive effects they provide.

1 hour ago, trikk said:

What models that are below the curve are you talking about?

Mostly the Guild Marshals that the DMR supports naturally.  Lady J mostly lacks options compared to most masters in the game.  Judge is really good, but bland without his upgrade which makes him really expensive.  Exorcist is a little too specialized and the Lone Marshal has his moments but generally doesn't synergize with any of them (fittingly, I suppose).  DMs are easily the best of the bunch, but they're not cheap enough to spam so they're not QUITE enough to build an efficient Marshal package around.  It leaves the DMR a bit too dependent on granting the title to be really worth it and in that case, granting the title is a little too limited.  It just doesn't feel like he's exceptional without dramatically revamping the crew around him and at that point you're surrounding him with dirt to make him shine.  I actually like him as is just fine, but for me the main draw is stabbing birds out of the air.  I'm disappointed that he doesn't do enough to make me rethink the models he seems designed to support.

[trikk]

Well, he also stabs dreaming boys and undead bloothirsy neverborn 
 

Overall I agree with you, but his Into the Fray works not only with Guild Marshals so that Executionier/Justice/Frank/Phiona can get an extra swing a turn.

[Surrealistik]

10 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

It's really good in a vacuum but 8 stones is a lot, particularly when it really only benefits mid to high cost models.  That's a really hefty tax, particularly in a faction that's not really loaded up on upgrade packing melee beaters.  It's hard to take a lot of models that benefit from it without falling way behind on model count (though debt helps.... a lot....).

Don't get me wrong, I think he's good, my original statement was that all of those models are good and worth playing.  I just think they're held back by some of the targets for the impressive effects they provide.

Definitely worth it with Nellie, Lady J, and McMourning; I don't think it's ambiguous in their cases given they run melee murder balls when they're looking to kill, and they still have a decent # of activations.

[JDAntoine]

All I can say is that keeping Lady J alive does more as it seems to on paper. Badge + DMR alone let her tank well, even without SS or Brutal Effigy. 

Because of that both Judge and Frank can hunt other targets. 

How good that is depends on several factors but a Hard to Kill Master with 14 Wd is something else.

[LunarSol]

On 12/12/2016 at 3:31 PM, trikk said:

Well, he also stabs dreaming boys and undead bloothirsy neverborn 

It gets slightly card intensive to kill anything durable though.  Not that its bad, just less strenuous to use on things you can one shot.