Sun Quiang

[Furycat]

This is reposted from my newly resurrected Blog, which you can find at https://furycat.wordpress.com/

So, 

I'm wanting to talk about one of the new Ten Thunders Enforcers, from the Ripples of Fate book; Sun Quiang. I've not seen a huge amount of discussion of him as yet, and he looks interesting to me. While models that do a lot of killing are entertaining, one of the things I enjoy most about Malifaux is all the non-killing aspects such as positioning, conditions and their interactions, and doing cool stuff with schemes. And Sun Quiang is definitely all about that. He's an 8ss support Enforcer, who if we're being honest is going to be in fairly direct competition with our amazing support Henchman, Sensei Yu for a spot in most crews.

So what does Sun Quiang bring to the table? Well, for a start he's got some pretty decent defensive stats, with Df7 and Wp6, though with only 7 wounds I wouldn't expect him to stand up to a determined attacker for too long. You will definitely want to position him well to keep him safe from harm. He has a ton of interesting abilities that I'll detail a bit more below;

Thirteen Measures: Forcing Wp duels on enemy models activating in aura 4 to avoid slow is pretty nice. Likely wont cause slow terribly often, but it will likely drain some cards from your opponents hand.

Don't Mind Me: What's not to like about this? He's a support/scheme Enforcer and this makes him very useful for a wide range of schemes.

Absolute Sincerity: Possibly a slightly double-edged sword if you aren't careful about your positioning and activation order, heals 1 wound on all models in (4) when activating. You will want to ensure you maximize your own models getting healed, while minimizing the opposing models getting healed.

King of Medicine: This I think might be one of his best abilities. For the cost of a discarded card, he can push up to his Wk towards any model in LoS that takes damage, and if he pushes at least 3", he can take a (1) interact action. Potentially a very good use for low cards to get good positioning, and putting down extra scheme markers contributes towards his general theme of being a scheme/support model.

Action wise, Sun has a single attack which is either Rg 6 or 1 melee. He's on a solid Ml7 with it which makes it likely to hit, and needs only a 6 to meet his target. Resist is Wp. The action MUST select a trigger, and has a ram built in to allow either 2 healing or 2 damage to the target so this adds some nice support to a crew, and also gives the option to administer finishing-off attacks to badly hurt models. I suspect the heal will be the more often used however. Other triggers allow discarding all scheme, scrap and corpse markers in (2) of the target, giving out Aversary, or placing a target engaging him in melee within 6". That's quite a toolbox.

His tactical actions are a (1) Ca action to gain a condition that makes all enemy models in aura 4 count as Peons, in addition to their normal station characteristic. This is potentially extremely disruptive to several schemes and strats, and also hilariously would make anything count for Headhunter. His only (0) action targets a scrap, corpse or scheme marker in 8", to place a friendly scheme marker in base contact with it then discard it. Further adding to his arsenal of scheme-related dickery, and giving him some added utility against crews that rely on scrap or corpse markers.

Overall he has quite a nice selection of tools to make him a very versatile support piece, though you will need to keep him safe from harm as it's highly likely your opponent will want him dead, and with no defensive tech beyond simply Df7 and Wp6, he'll go down pretty easily. The obvious question is, how does he compare to our OTHER really solid scheme/support piece, Sensei Yu? Well... they perform slightly different roles. Yu brings some excellent pushes, the ability to hand out fast or slow, the ability to copy your master's (0) actions, and of course the ability to toss markers around the board with Mighty Gust. (and lets face it, if he's not in a Shenlong crew, he's rocking Wandering River Style). Those are probably stronger abilities overall than what Sun Quiang is bringing, however there is the crucial matter of cost. With his upgrade, Yu is 11ss which is a serious investment in a support piece. Sun Quiang is a much cheaper 8ss as he doesn't really need any upgrades, though he does make an excellent carrier for The Peaceful Waters upgrade, if you are planning on taking any Monks of Low River. Indeed, Sun plus a Monk of Low River makes a nice solid support core for a crew, for a total of 12ss. 1ss more than Sensei Yu, but with greater total support for your crew. (Not to mention, an additional activation).

So is he worth taking? Well, depends on what you're trying to do and what master you are rocking. It seems unlikely he'll make it into many Shenlong lists for example, since you will generally want Sensei Yu with Shenlong for upgrade swapping shenanigans, and putting in a second relatively expensive support model is probably too much. He goes well with Yan Lo however, which probably isn't surprising given his Retainer characteristic (Which incidentally means Yan Lo can take him as a Resser). He brings some nice additional healing to the crew, particularly for Yan Lo himself if you're throwing him into the opposing crew, and plenty of scheme interactions. He also goes nicely with Toshiro since he can drop scheme markers from his push towards models getting hurt, which Toshiro can use to hand out his Focused + 1 pulse, and Sun can heal up freshly summoned Ashigaru and angry stone dogs.

He will likely compliment well any models that are naturally somewhat tanky, such as those with armour (Izamu, Samurai), or Hard to Wound, keeping them in the fight longer while moving around putting down scheme markers and disrupting the enemy's schemes. Do remember to put down corpse and scrap markers while using Sun Quiang, as he can target them with his (0) to make them into scheme markers!

I've run him out once so far with Yan Lo which worked well, though I need more experimental data to be sure. I tried him in combination with a Goryo, and Toshiro. Turn 1 the Goryo walks, and summons a Seishin, taking 2 damage. Sun Quiang discards a card to push up and lay a scheme marker. He then heals the Goryo in his activation and moves forward. Toshiro and his cloud of minions advance, and he makes the Goryo fast, and pushes it forward 4". Yan Lo spirit barrages the summoned Seishin to gain a Chi from killing it. Second turn, Toshiro activates early and uses the scheme marker to pulse Focused +1 to all minions, before they all rush off to do Things(tm). All in all, worked nicely. I'll likely add more info here as I try him out in more crews.

 

[clockworkspide]

Hire Sue.  Have Sun Quiang pop his Peon aura.  If you have enough tomes, you can charge Sue in and start handing out instakills with his "The Man Comes Around" trigger (instant death to Peons and Totems unless they discard two Soulstones).

[Eclipse]

I expect that Sun Quiang will be more popular for Rezzer Yan Lo then in Thunders. He requires a lot of thinking to get the most out of his toolbox and we already have a number of healing (the most obvious ability) models available to everyone that people are familiar with. I hope I turn out to be wrong, though: He has a lot of potential, but also would need a lot of practice to get the most of.

[santaclaws01]

5 hours ago, Eclipse said:

I expect that Sun Quiang will be more popular for Rezzer Yan Lo then in Thunders. He requires a lot of thinking to get the most out of his toolbox and we already have a number of healing (the most obvious ability) models available to everyone that people are familiar with. I hope I turn out to be wrong, though: He has a lot of potential, but also would need a lot of practice to get the most of.

A thing to note about rezzer sun quiang, his main attack is Ml 7 with a range of 6 and built in trigger to do 2 damage, so a Nurse can give him that +2 damage to Ml and you have a 6" bubble of 4 reliable damage, and the fact that he can push means he won't be stuck where he is.

[Furycat]

I agree, I think he will need a lot of practice to get the most out of him, and likely some quite careful positional play. I think he has a lot of potential as a scheme ... Runner seems the wrong word. Controller, maybe? He can contribute significantly to completing your schemes, and at the same time disrupt the enemys schemes.

He does work nicely with spirits, since he can give out adversary, the two real options for Thunders being Goryo, with Yan Lo ( and they do seem good), and of course Izamu. He would compliant Izamu well in any crew, since he can give out adversary to give the big guy + flips to hit, and he innately has + flips to damage, so that's going to hurt. Plus with his armour, Izamu is hard to put down, and Sun Quiang's healing will go a long way, and finally Izamu being huge and having a 3" melee means he can protect Sun pretty well while he does scheme things.

I do like the idea with Sue. Might need to try that for laughs :-)

I'll likely play him a bunch more and see how well he works out in practice, and report back.

[BigHammer]

His peon aura is probably his key selling point for me; he changes schemes in ways that few other models do. Scoring Hunting Party by killing their master is always a classic, for example.

As for his AP, I tend to use it moving and interacting; I rarely use his attack action and when I do I have yet to use his other triggers. He's not reliable as a source of Adversary, sadly, except in that if you have the high suit card you need he has a higher base stat than, eg, Kirai or Datsue Ba (both of whom don't need the suit). Don't Mind Me in Thunders is a massive selling point, though, as, aside from hiring Performers, we don't really have access to it otherwise.

He's a specialist who suits certain scheme/strategy choices IMO, so at the moment I'm waiting to see how he fits in with GG 2017 when it hits.

[Furycat]

Agreed, don't mind me in Thunders is a big selling point, and it comes in a package with a huge amount of utility. I think his (0) is potentially very strong too, not just for replacing enemy scheme markers with your own, but also for denying corpse and scrap markers to crews that rely on them. An AoE heal on activation is a nice bonus as well, I suspect he'll be good with crews that like to bunch up for various buffs, e.g Toshiro, Kang, and to some extent Mei Feng when she's making use of vent steam.

Assuming you aren't using the 0ss low river monk upgrade on him, something defensive like smoke grenades could be useful to make him more resistant. Or vs Wp attack heavy crews, a Servant of 5 Dragons.

[Dogmantra]

I love that trick with Sue, although it does seem kinda niche.

I love love love Sun Quiang, and I was really disappointed when he wasn't available for Black Friday. Not really even for any specific use, I just like his mechanics a lot. I had initially misread him to be a Henchman though and I was disappointed when I realised he wasn't, being able to stone for attack suits seems useful. But yeah, he's basically all the scheme models you need in one.

[Eclipse]

7 hours ago, Furycat said:

He does work nicely with spirits, since he can give out adversary, the two real options for Thunders being Goryo, with Yan Lo ( and they do seem good), and of course Izamu.

These would not be relevant as often, but the Komainu and Hungering Darkness are Spirits as well  

[Furycat]

1 minute ago, Eclipse said:

These would not be relevant as often, but the Komainu and Hungering Darkness are Spirits as well  

Hmmmmm! Huggy with + flips! I like that idea. Also, I forgot about Komainu, and that would make Sun Quiang an even better combo with Toshiro. I will very likely play him with Toshiro a few more times, I quite like the combination. Maybe some Illuminated and perhaps a Jorogumo with Toshiro, his summoning upgrade, and Sun Quiang. Maybe a couple of Rail Workers to give the ability to drop scrap and corpse markers, to fuel Toshiro's summoning, and Sun Quiang's marker shenanigans.

Hopefully I'll get a game on Sunday, very likely against Collodi since Paul seems to be on a bit of a kick with him.

[Eclipse]

I went back and checked and it seems I missed that the Tengu are Spirits as well, but you seriously would not want to try hitting stuff with them unless you are desperate  I like the lineup you mentioned, this might cause me to go back to Toshiro with a proxy Sun Quiang. If you get the game, we'll be glad to hear your experience

[OneLittleThunder]

Nice writeup! One correction though:

On 12/7/2016 at 9:27 PM, Furycat said:

His tactical actions are a (1) Ca action to gain a condition that makes all enemy models in aura 4 count as Peons, in addition to their normal station characteristic. This is potentially extremely disruptive to several schemes and strats, and also hilariously would make anything count for Headhunter.

Actually, it makes NOTHING count for Headhunter; Peons don't drop heads. It does, however, make everything count for Hunting Party, which I think is what you meant.  It's great for Collect the Bounty, too, since enemy peons can't score points, but they also count as whatever else they are for purposes of scoring your points. Also provides a nice bubble of protection against Exhaust, Catch and Release, and Mark for Death.

Don't make the mistake I did, and assume it will help with Turf War/Extraction/Guard the Stash, since his aura goes away before points are scored. Nope, I was right the first time - his aura lasts until the start of the NEXT turn, presumably for just this reason.

Edited December 9, 2016 by OneLittleThunder
Correction

[Furycat]

Yes, you are quite right, I did indeed mean hunting party! Apologies for the error. :-)

[Inquisitor Wall]

I have thought about using him with brewmaster for his wp based attacks and the ability to interact while engaged. My only issue they would be the competition between him, yin and tannen all at that 8 point enforcer level. 

[Furycat]

Got my game played with Paul this evening, so thought I'd do a quick after-action report. This is cross posted from my blog, and can be read as such here https://furycat.wordpress.com/2016/12/11/after-action-report-sun-quiang/.

So, as hoped I got another chance to put Sun Quiang on the table this evening in a further effort to see just what he can do. The game was against my arch-nemesis and long time gaming friend, Paul, who’s blog you can find here.

I was of course playing Ten Thunders, and Paul was continuing his run of playing Neverborn. Specifically, Collodi. This is not really a full battle report per-se, just an after-action summary of what happened and my thoughts on Sun Quiang’s performance.

Ten Thunders
Mei Feng, Seismic Claws, Recalled Training
Emberling
Toshiro the Daimyo, Command the Graves
Sun Quiang, The Peaceful Waters
Jorogumo
Illuminated
Rail Worker
Monk of Low River

Neverborn (Roughly)
Collodi, some upgrades
Barbaros
2 x Terror Tot
Arcane Effigy
Brutal Effigy
Beckoner
2 x Illuminated

We were doing Extraction, with a very odd scheme pool containing Convict Labour, Exhaust their Forces, Neutralise the Leader, Catch and Release, and Take Prisoner. Looking at it, I decided to try Take Prisoner on Barbaros, figuring I could throw Ashigaru and angry stone dogs at him from Toshiro’s summoning, and Convict Labour since Sun Quiang would be able to turn corpses and scrap markers into scheme markers for me if needed, as well as potentially doing it to Paul’s ones if he opted for Convict Labour.

The initial rush forward went about as you might expect, the Emberling coughed up a scrap marker turn 1 for Toshiro to make into an angry stone dog, and was duly healed by Sun Quiang. Everyone advanced and Mei Feng vented steam to make things harder for Collodi. The Jorogumo ended up at the front and taking a lot of fire, though between Sun Quiang and the Low River monk I was able to keep him up for quite a while before he finally succumbed. Everything bogged down around the centre as is to be expected, and Paul was able to deny me Convict Labour initially by moving models up. Turn 4 I was able to flip a corpse marker in a good spot and score though. Mei Feng ended up charging into the middle of his crew and largely tied things up until she succumbed rather surprisingly to the Beckoner following a series of very poor flips, giving up 2 points on Neutralise the Leader in the process. Paul meanwhile was able to score Exhaust their Forces on my angry stone dogs, who were sadly too far out of the action for me to protect them by having Sun Quiang turn everyone into minions. Thanks to my weight of numbers though, while we were both scoring the strategy I was able to keep moving it back away from him, and both Collodi and the Beckoner ended up quite some distance from it, as they were busy fleeing from/killing Mei Feng.

Barbaros helpfully moved himself deep into the middle of my crew on the final turn, along with Paul’s final Illuminated, and was inside 2″ of a pair of my scheme markers poised to prevent me scoring on Convict Labour. Sun Quiang however was able to hit him, and successfully cheat the red joker to ensure the ‘Hole in the World’ trigger, placing Barbaros on the far side of Toshiro. This cleared my scheme markers, and moved him away from the Illuminated to ensure I would score full points for Take Prisoner. He finally used his Recitation of the Essential Formulae to make both Barbaros and the Illuminated into peons, preventing them from scoring Paul his final point on the strategy. This resulted in a narrow 9 – 8 win to me, with Sun Quiang ensuring me a whopping 5 VP scored on the final turn of the game, as well as denying 1 VP to Paul.

So overall thoughts? His healing is nice, both from the attack action when needed, but also from his 4″ pulse on activation. I had him nicely in the middle of my crew, and actually ended up doing far more healing with that, than with his attack. Obviously, the Hole in the World trigger on his attack also secured my victory, and given how powerful positioning is in Malifaux, being able to move an enemy so substantially has the potential to be extremely strong. Being a place rather than a push is also very handy. His (0) action also got good use, being able to transform a scrap, corpse, or scheme marker into a friendly scheme marker (And in a slightly different location, since it’s placed in base contact with the marker being removed), helped me get points from Convict Labour. The aura of forcing Wp duels to avoid slow also came up several times, costing cards and in one instance actually making a model slow. Finally, I felt he was a great carrier for the healing upgrade for the Low River monk, who did a good bit of healing work for me before Collodi murdered the poor chap.

On the whole, it does definitely seem as if Sun Quiang has the potential to be a very powerful support piece indeed. Strong with the summoning Toshiro, mostly for the heals in this particular instance, but more particularly for his ability to control placement, provide a good bit of healing, and to heavily influence the schemes and strats. I think he’ll be seeing a lot more use from me!

[Somnicide]

Very nice! I also enjoyed your analysis on Malifaux game theory! Subscribed and looking forward to more!

[Furycat]

4 hours ago, Somnicide said:

Very nice! I also enjoyed your analysis on Malifaux game theory! Subscribed and looking forward to more!

Glad you are enjoying it! I've got a fair bit I want to talk about on the theory side, so hopefully there should be fairly regular posts!

[Skitt_Happens]

I've taken Sun on a few occasions now, always in extraction with the intention of auto winning the strat: hasn't worked out that way! The mistake I've been making is taking him with Asami - a somewhat card hungry master!

My idea was to activate Sun late in the turn, activate the 5600 aura and walk into the middle of the crew. The issue is, if I have any cards in my hand at this point they are not good ones, and seeing as I seem unable to top deck a 6, I'm not sure why I thought I could top deck an 8!

Because of my mismanagement, Sun has every time turned put to be a massively overpriced healer (except the first time I took him: in that game he was a massively overpriced corpse marker). Taking him with a master with better hand control/retention seems like he may be far more effective... Huggy a spirit? Now there is an idea that appeals!

[Tokapondora]

I feel like he doesn't have enough direction to really justify his cost. His design just feels too unfocused. He's an Enforcer so what triggers you get is all down to luck, his Formulae is nice but only works on a few schemes and when they're in the pool he gets focused down hard and instantly, and his Study is just so expensive. The only thing he can do with some consistency is heal, and I'm not paying 8 SS for 2 healing. Not sure how I'd really fix him, either. Make him a Henchman? Set Duality to 3? Maybe make Duality ignore HtW/HtK/Inco/Armor (since it's magicchistuff, after all). It might make him a bit strong, but as it is now I really see no point in taking him. You can take a Yin, you can take some beaters, you can take two LRMs...

Edit; Also, on his general design - if you want to use him as anything more than a twice as expensive LRM he's going to have to find himself near or in the thick of it. And if your opponent knows what he does (since you will only take him when it plays into the schemes), he will be dead in two activations tops. Because Df 7 is nice but not something that will hold up against any degree of attention.