What to pick versus Neverborn in general?

[Zombie]

G'day fellow resurrectionists, I've stumbled upon little problem - those pesky neverborn! I've grown quite fearful of pandora with either the "thousand cuts" build or the paralyzing. I'm also already quite scared of my usual opponent when he picks up caster Lilith with Nekima, Graves etc. I would be asking what should I pick against neverborn in general, I do not like building my lists against specific champion unless I know that my opponent has tendency to play it a lot or some other viable explanation. I've been playing mostly with McMourning and very little Seamus, would proper summoner be just stronger against them? I usually tend to ignore Pandora bit as she just would run away from the melee range with pushing. 

Thank you fellow students of necromancy in advance!

[Kadeton]

Generally speaking, the Neverborn have a higher proportion of Wp-based attacks and defenses than other Factions. What's interesting about that, especially for the Ressers, is that they also tend to be somewhat vulnerable to Wp-based effects (we too have a lot). They also generally like dishing out damage but hate taking it in return.

If you know you're going up against Pandora specifically, I'd say Molly is probably the Ressers' strongest counter. Pandora's "thousand cuts" style interacts very badly (for her) with Black Blood, and Molly herself is a difficult prospect for Pandora to tackle directly, having no  or  attacks. Keep summoning stuff into Pandora's crew in a position to effectively spray blood (bonus points if you can summon a Hanged to force even more Terrifying duels) and just grind them down.

Another option is Seamus with Sinister Reputation. Giving Pandora -2 Wp can make her very sad indeed. Just beware of her ability to make Seamus shoot himself in the face multiple times a turn.

Against Neverborn in general, I do tend to prefer summoners. The Neverborn will usually try to hit so hard and fast that you can't retaliate, and summoning makes it much easier to replenish your losses and hit back (just watch out for Lilith grow lists). That's not to say that you can't succeed with a Master like McMourning, but it will often be a case of trying to hit them hard before they hit you, spread Poison on a lot of models, and do everything you can to keep Sebastian alive as you watch the Neverborn melt around him.

[orkdork]

Beware that paralyze Pandora wrecks Molly and McMourning.

[Passenty]

Generally good picks against nb in my opinion- Valedictorian- resillent beater who can catch up to usually fast nb models, Yin with my little helper-no nb master wants to be hit with its 0 as all of them have powerful Ca actions and usually nb have good att stats but lack +flips and with the upg you have two goes to try to set an ambush , Johan-condition removal is always handy against paralyze, rooted and over nasty stuff.

Against Pandora everything that debuffs WP is gold mainly Yin, Crooligans and Seamus with sinister reputation. This needs some set up with lures and\or blocking push lanes particullary if they bring the effigy. Of course you need some beater to finish the job(Decaying Aura recommended as without stones and with Wp reduced Pandora has zero defences). Anna Lovelace also works to block the pushes and then you can shoot with everything you have. If you dont focus on Pandora dont attack her at all and just try to ignore her then kill the squishy support force multiplyers-> widow weaver->sorrows->iggy\insidious madness, if you can always kill the doppelganger.  If they dont have Graves you need to watch out for incite and try to block it as if that fails Pandora only has walk 4 and no mobility- try to avoid incite with crappy models as that limits your options even if you win the initiave and that is rare as they will always bring doppel.

[Mutter]

On 7.10.2016 at 7:10 PM, orkdork said:

Beware that paralyze Pandora wrecks Molly and McMourning.

Molly? Why is that, I thought she's immune to the paralyzing? And doesn't she usually chain-activate her summons, too (so difficult to paralyze them in-between)?

[Slapdrone]

Molly's not immune to being paralyzed, but she usually is my go to against nb.  Black blood and WP duels help with Lilith.  Summoning 2-3 punk zombies to slice and dice Pandora with a DF duel is a great way to take her down a peg.

[Mutter]

6 minutes ago, Slapdrone said:

Molly's not immune to being paralyzed, ....

Should have clarified that I meant Pandora's paralyze, because she has neither or , like Kadeton mentioned.

[Adran]

They don't have to have a or attack for her to target them, and the trigger is after suceeding, so it will still paralyse. 

FAQ

105 Can Pandora take the Self Harm Action against a model without a Attack? (Same question for Self
Loathing and Attacks).
Yes. The Attack would simply be unable to deal damage. Self Harm selects a Attack on the target and
applies the damage, but does not require the target to have a z Attack. Attacks that require the target have
a certain trait in order to target are generally worded, “Target model with a Attack…” Self Harm is not
worded in this way

[Mutter]

Ah, good to know, thanks for that.

[Kadeton]

3 hours ago, Mutter said:

Should have clarified that I meant Pandora's paralyze, because she has neither or , like Kadeton mentioned.

Sorry, I can see how you got there from what I said, I should have been clearer. Doesn't stop the Paralysis, but you're not dealing yourself damage in the process, which can make it pretty slow going for Pandora, and you're still spraying Black Blood all over the place.

[benjoewoo]

A quick thought for black blood and punk zombie pulses, since they can damage multiple enemy models per turn. The player who effects the damage, i.e. you as the controller of the punk zombie(s) and black blood models, chooses which models take damage first. This is important because pandora can punt damage to nearby woes, but she cannot punt damage if all her woes died first. This may be somewhat corner case, because higher Wd count woes won't fall over to this tactic, but chaffe/weak ones will.

For example, if you're running sybelle, you can have her shriek into an engagement--assuming randomization lands on one of your own models, you can purposefully cheat to do moderate damage--4 damage is likely to kill the punk zombie unless pandora really bunched up, but you'll get 2 separate ticks of damage against any nearby chaffe woes pandy punts damage to, in 2 (blast) and 1 (black blood). Pandora can either eat the damage herself (at 1 Wd each instance) essentially or let them die, but then when you apply the damage to her, she can't punt it to another model.

[hydranixx]

11 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

A quick thought for black blood and punk zombie pulses, since they can damage multiple enemy models per turn. The player who effects the damage, i.e. you as the controller of the punk zombie(s) and black blood models, chooses which models take damage first. This is important because pandora can punt damage to nearby woes, but she cannot punt damage if all her woes died first. This may be somewhat corner case, because higher Wd count woes won't fall over to this tactic, but chaffe/weak ones will.

For example, if you're running sybelle, you can have her shriek into an engagement--assuming randomization lands on one of your own models, you can purposefully cheat to do moderate damage--4 damage is likely to kill the punk zombie unless pandora really bunched up, but you'll get 2 separate ticks of damage against any nearby chaffe woes pandy punts damage to, in 2 (blast) and 1 (black blood). Pandora can either eat the damage herself (at 1 Wd each instance) essentially or let them die, but then when you apply the damage to her, she can't punt it to another model.

Well, punk zombies have Hard to Wound, so if you hit your own one you're going to have to either Focus first or cheat a pretty high card (12+, assuming Shriek) just to ensure a straight flip for damage.

However, it could well be worth it; I think the damage is even higher than you note. If you do in fact hit your own model with Sybelle's Shriek, Black Blood can trigger many more times in this little equation as far as I can discern;

As soon as your model loses the WP duel (Shriek targets WP iirc), it instantly gets nuked by Pandora's Misery (potentially multiple times if there's multiple Sorrows nearby) and each time Misery hits it, your model triggers a new, separate tick of Black Blood. If your model survives the Misery onslaught, this is then followed up by the actual damage of Shriek if the model's still alive, which again produces another tick of Black Blood.

If I've interpreted this correctly, then essentially you can get your Black Blood host model up close and personal next to Pandora and a Sorrow, then hit it with basically any damaging spell that targets WP and they're all taking at least 3 separate ticks of at least 1 damage, even before you factor in any potential s. If Pandora wants to soak wounds, we're still talking 6 wounds which will seriously hurt her. This only gets more painful if there's more Sorrows added in, as all models get another Misery/Black Blood induced wound for each extra Sorrow.

I think a hired host model is a better choice than a summoned one, if at all possible, since it should be able to survive more stacks of Misery by virtue of having (hopefully) more wounds to begin with. A Dead Doxy seems like a perfect choice as it gets Black Blood no matter which version of Molly you choose, it gets a faster Wk with Sybelle nearby and can help to gather the clump of Sorrows+Pandora together with it's (0), while pushing itself into the optimum position to spread that lovely Black Blood + Misery aids. For extra salt, the Doxy may well die to Misery so it can still give Fast to an ally despite you being the one who targets it.

Does this work, or have I missed something obvious?

[benjoewoo]

It works, assuming the models being hit will live through the damage.

Shriek does 4 or 5 damage if you're trying to blast. I actually forgot about Misery--it would actually turn the damage into 5 or 6 in two separate ticks. Assuming the punk zombies had 2 Wds on summoning (Pandora and any Woe for damage punt), you'd get a 1" pulse for black blood from Misery, 2 damage blast on moderate from Shriek, and a 1" pulse for black blood from Shriek, dealing 4 damage over 3 separate ticks to both targets provided punk zombie is in range. If the woe nearby is a Sorrow, you could experience another tick of damage for 5 damage over 4 separate ticks, but the target would have to have at least 3 Wds to trigger the last Black Blood pulse. With only 2 Wounds, the most you could do is 8 damage to two different targets, assuming Pandora and a model with Misery are within range of their auras and close enough for black blood.

Punk zombies start with 7 Wds, so that's most of their Wds already. If they have 5 Wds, they'd survive the combo with 1 Wd from HtK--if Pandora and 4 other enemy models are that close together, the stars have aligned for you to do 25 damage, provided you randomized onto the punk zombie for the Shriek and multiple misery auras don't melt the punk zombie.

Yes, HtW would make it difficult. You could, however, cheat an ace to bring the Punk Zombie to 6, then cheat an 11 for Sybelle. If you flip/cheat the BJ for Punk Zombie, a 10 would suffice. An 11, ace, and 6 are somewhat heavy costed, but assuming multiple targets, could be worth the cost. Almost easier to run Corpse Bloat to cause the hand drain without risk of randomizing onto Pandora and failing the Wp duel. 

[hydranixx]

I reiterate; each and every source of Misery within 6" contributes to the damage of your host, one point of damage at a time, when you fail your WP duel. Each of these points of damage independently return one point of damage to those nearest your host, due to Black Blood.

Assuming your Zombie is on 2 wounds as you say, and that Pandora and at least 1 Sorrow nearby (6"), as soon as you cast and hit the zombie with Shriek, it dies, because it loses both wounds to Misery, before Shriek gets to make a damage flip. This will hand 2 ticks of damage back with Black Blood if he's really close to them, but it's not going to be handing out 4 damage like you say, and certainly nowhere near 8 damage... since he dies before the Blast can be placed.

As long as there's at least two instances of Misery (Pandora often hires 1-2 Sorrows to maximise WP damage), you can never even do damage with your WP attacking Blasts when you only have 2 wounds; you simply die to Misery first. That's why I thought a hired Doxy, or a Belle perhaps, coupled with Shriek, is a really good choice here.

 

[Kadeton]

43 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

Assuming your Zombie is on 2 wounds as you say, and that Pandora and at least 1 Sorrow nearby (6"), as soon as you cast and hit the zombie with Shriek, it dies, because it loses both wounds to Misery, before Shriek gets to make a damage flip. This will hand 2 ticks of damage back with Black Blood if he's really close to them, but it's not going to be handing out 4 damage like you say, and certainly nowhere near 8 damage... since he dies before the Blast can be placed.

FYI Misery deals damage after resolving the current Action, not immediately upon failing the Wp duel. Any damage from the Action, Blasts, Black Blood etc will get resolved before Misery kicks in.