Cards or AP?

[SurreyLee]

Okay, i've been playing a fair amount of Kirai lately and I wanted to raise a thread about a model often found in her crews and that is Philip and the Nanny. 

I understand the theory behind taking Phil and while the cards come in useful, I find the AP spent on getting them can be better used elsewhere. Not only are you spending ap to drop scheme markers, you are spending AP to turn them into cards. Potentially 4 AP a turn for 2 extra cards (plus 2 discarded). I'm just not sure it's generally worth it. Now sure, there are ways of getting scheme markers that are more effective and there are always going to be occasions where you draw a card that you need etc but generally what do people think about Phil?

I actually like his scheme marker manipulation and find it more powerful but the Performer can do this (plus other cool stuff) for 2 stones less. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by SurreyLee
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[MEGAHORSE]

There are many ways to generate scheme markers outside of just using 1AP interacts

• Phillip can turn opposing markers into corpses
• Emissary can turn corpses into markers
• The Drowned/Crooked Men drop scheme markers upon death
• Datsue Ba has an action on Spirit Whispers to have friendly spirits within a range to drop scheme markers when killed. 

Among others. I find Phillip incredibly useful with most masters due to her ability to just slam through your deck to find the suits/numbers you need, especially with kirai who wants Masks for her trigger to move damage to a friendly spirit within 2", her 0 to teleport to a friendly spirit, Crows for summoning, etc. This doesnt even take into account the triggers on Datsue ba's ranged attack to kill a model and summon a Gaki/Onyro.

The longer I play the game, the higher I value cards and AP. Both are interchangable depending on the scenario: You dont always want to plant and eat markers each turn. But the ability to do so can dramatically change the course of the game. 

Phillip also brings other useful abilities to the table. When pushed or pulled, he moves an extra 2", and his Walk of 6 to begin with allows him the ability to scheme run and hunt opposing runners, and with Ml6, he can hit fairly accurately (with some great triggers!)

I also dont mind summoning models off Phillip late in the game when he has outlived his usefulness. His large wound pool is pretty useful in that aspect. In addition, he is both an Undead and a Spirit, allowing us to carry Take Back the Night, and allow us to summon Ikyro when he is struck near Kirai. 

I'm biased, however. I love Phillip and take him in many of my crews, moreso than any other model (sans Belles or Nurses).

EDIT:

I also want to bring up the idea that baiting your opponent into thinking you're playing certain schemes based on your scheme marker placement is an important consideration. 

[lusciousmccabe]

I think using a mook to drop a scheme marker for Philip to hoover up is something worth doing early in the game when you don't actually want to spend that AP on anything else. I'm finding more and more often that I'd rather not double walk all my models forward on round 1 since it gives your opponent a lot of choices for turn two charges and shooting attacks. Obviously in some scenarios you do need to spend that AP getting up the board quickly, but if you don't and it's good to be able to generate some cards while you wait for the enemy to come to you (either of their own volitionl or because of Lure). 

[Adran]

Having faced Joe with his Kirai a lot, its to do with mitigating risk.

Because he sets his crew up to make the best use of high cards and crows, the AP spent is generally paid back. Typically the AP spent on getting the cards ought to be rewarded by AP from summoning something  good (typically 2 hanged). He does set the crew up and the summoning up to get as high a number of cards for as low as possible a cost. And Models like Philip are there to give him the cards, but also able to deny VPs later on. With out the card drawing Philip wouldn't be worth his cost in that build. 

He also makes use of Datsuba's finish the job aura, and drowned as summons to bring out scheme markers for "free", so  there is a much lower than realised AP cost to keep it ticking. 

Boiling it down to the basics, its about turning your starting soulstone into VP. Number of AP you have only matters in how you use them, and cards are a resource to achieve your goals. Masters with abilities that have a TN put more pressure on your hand because they need you to have that card to make the action work. Perdita can shoot someone even if the card she flips is a black joker, and so any card in hand could be useful for her shooting. If you're trying to summon a Hanged them you must end up with 13. 

Sometimes it is worth it to spend your AP, to get to look at 2 extra cards. 

[SurreyLee]

I think this is the thing. Sometimes it's worth it. Not all the time. A starting hand with at least one card above an 11 means one hanged turn one. 

I think Datsu Ba is reliant on certain cards, preferably high ones to hit her triggers for free Ap, so i suppose there is a trade off. 

I've only used P&tN a few times and still to be convinced, but i'll carry on. Clearly it's not a bad model, probably more about what i'm getting out of it. 

 

[Ludvig]

Don't play Kirai but the insane damned hands my regular Kirai opponent gets seem worth it.

I think card manipulation is extremely strong, especially since Philip lets you sculpt your hand AND get crap out of your deck so you can have a good hand while still topdecking gold on most initial duels. It's like lists with Lilith, Primordial Magic and one of the freikorps sisters. The enemy starts by just picking all the cherries from half their deck so whatever models they picked they usually have some good suits and high cards to make you fail every damned attack for a turn (but getting it each turn instead of once in a blue moon). Having hand control lets you play very aggressively and have it pay off more often.

[Gypsey]

I play Philip with Molly and I think this is where Philip shines the most. Molly's main weakness is she needs cards in hand for her defensive trigger. The fact that Philip adds a card to your hand each time he eats a scheme is very helpful. 

I also see Philip as consistently earning back stones by fishing for suits I would normally stone for. This means I feel more comfortable having a low-ish soulstone pool, 5-6.