How would you help Tara?

[Jordon]

So I'll first start off by saying that I love Tara. She's such a left field master that most people don't account for her dropping. I think she has some really good matchup's and she has some really bad one's. She feels completely unique compared to just about any other master and takes a great degree of skill to master. I love the idea of a high risk/reward style with her giving fast to enemy models.

That being said, I really dislike how "messy" she feels as each wave tends to add some "bandaid" to help untangle the mess. I feel like she's a new players worst nightmare with how compounded her abilities are and how other models exist to try and help with some of her playstyles. As mentioned, I love her risk/reward style of play, but I tend to find that the risk is usually not worth the reward.

So my question to the community is this. If you could design one upgrade for Tara, what would it look like? Is there one or two abilities that you think could untangle the mess and help streamline Tara? I'm not necessarily advocating for a power increase, but maybe more of a way to help some of her more difficult play styles. 

 

[Mikey_C]

I really like avatar Tara (AvaTara!) having the ability to summon void wretches. 

Maybe an upgrade that gives her sword a trigger to summon a void wretch when it kills something.

But even then I'm not sure how often I would take it because I usually fill Tara's upgrade slots as is.

 

Honestly, the biggest change I would want to see:

Remove the  flip to initiatives from Knowledge of Eternity, reduce it's cost to 1ss. Then reduce Tara's SS cache by 1, and give her an ability that puts the opponent on  initiative flips. Dopplegangers always seem to ruin my day, to the extent I won't play her if my opponent declares Neverborn.  (I play her in theme, so initiative is very important).

 

Other than that I like the abilites the crew has, I just feel like a lot of them are misplaced. For example move the 2 damage when an enemy models with fast activates near Karina onto the nothing beast. How often is Karina in the thick of it?

[valhallan42nd]

I'd try to find a way to make it so that two of her upgrade slots aren't automatically filled with (Whatever upgrade gives you pull the void) and (Whatever upgrade lets you unbury people). Those seem like auto includes to me, given what her key mechanics are.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Shuffle around her abilities so fielding guys (at least wretches and the NB; maybe DMs) and friendly unbury are native. Tweak Glimpse the Void to be less restrictive. Make Karina's upgrade native. Generally fix Karina's useless/situational rules. But, that's not going to happen.

Frankly, I think that Tara runs decently well, that she has all the tools to run well, that her risk-rewards are good as long as you understand that AP manipulation and friendly buries , and that any more additions are just one more bandaid to add to the tangle.

So, if I had to say something, I'd go with a generic upgrade that improves void wretches such that I'd have incentive to take some as cheap front liners or something, since I end up never taking them for what seems to be their job, and instead run them for schemes and whatnot instead of their ineffective bury interactions. Don't think a summon's necessary since it's already on the avatar and tara doesn't need one more competing upgrade when she already relies on active unburying plus a model/upgrade with reliable burying, unless all you take her for is an AP battery.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think she's fine. People focus too much on burying opposing models when it's a mechanic that can't be explored too fully because of how powerfully offensive it is. It's more powerful than paralyzing an enemy is. Couple that with the fact she can reliably take 6 ap a turn, and upping any particular ability can get out of hand really fast. If she dies after activating once on turn 3 she's still gotten to take as actions as any other master in the game that doesn't die. 

Honestly there isn't anything that could be done to her that would both clean up the inelegant nature rules and give her different play styles (which mot every master has) other than a complete and total scrapping of every rule and concept and starting over, completely, from square 1, which she doesn't need, at least in my opinion.

[D_acolyte]

You can have her really kill people AP with handing slow out up to 6 times.

[PeregrineFalcon]

6 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I think she's fine. People focus too much on burying opposing models when it's a mechanic that can't be explored too fully because of how powerfully offensive it is. It's more powerful than paralyzing an enemy is. Couple that with the fact she can reliably take 6 ap a turn, and upping any particular ability can get out of hand really fast. If she dies after activating once on turn 3 she's still gotten to take as actions as any other master in the game that doesn't die. 

Honestly there isn't anything that could be done to her that would both clean up the inelegant nature rules and give her different play styles (which mot every master has) other than a complete and total scrapping of every rule and concept and starting over, completely, from square 1, which she doesn't need, at least in my opinion.

I'm in agreement here. I was actually in the camp that didn't even feel she needed much changed from her original incarnation. I played her heavily when Book 1 M2E came out and had no real issues. She requires a strong understanding of the game, but she is so versatile that I have never had issue. I also played her with a different set of upgrades than most (I played her in rezzers too).

In GG2016 I think she got a natural boost as well thx to her Out-of-Faction hiring of Death Marshals. Models I always found incredibly powerful with her. I think Tara is just fine and always has. I actually think Karina's upgrade was unnecessary and thematically I'm not a huge fan, and mechanically its still quite difficult to do much with.

[Mikey_C]

2 minutes ago, D_acolyte said:

You can have her really kill people AP with handing slow out up to 6 times.

3 times in most cases 5 max. She can't use that ability if there are no more friendly models to activate, so the only way around it is unbury something on the reactivate and then use it 2 more times.

 

12 minutes ago, SpiralngCadavr said:

Don't think a summon's necessary since it's already on the avatar and tara doesn't need one more competing upgrade when she already relies on active unburying plus a model/upgrade with reliable burying, unless all you take her for is an AP battery.

Sure, but I haven't played a game since the playtest where avatar upgrades are legal, and Tara can be a truely AWFUL build to go for in campaign. 

[D_acolyte]

Just now, Mikey_C said:

3 times in most cases 5 max. She can't use that ability if there are no more friendly models to activate, so the only way around it is unbury something on the reactivate and then use it 2 more times.

What ability, I am talking about Pull the Void which I do not recall seeing the rule you speak of but I will check the cards when I have them later.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Agreed with fetid, it's pretty hard to design around her huge (if not particularly special) high AP count.

Peregrine, agreed on her basic form being okay once you understood it. But I disagree about Karina, it's difficult to play towards, but I've gotten some epic mileage out of it, and you can definitely get reliable mileage out of it, short of statistical anomalies or early kills (but that's a qualifier you can put on most abilities).

Mikey, yeah, she's basically impossible to run as a resser campaign master. But, it's a design space that's already been spoken for. Then again, there are like a half-dozen ways of fielding wretches with her as ressers now, so I guess there's precedent for redundant rules.

[Mikey_C]

1 minute ago, D_acolyte said:

What ability, I am talking about Pull the Void which I do not recall seeing the rule you speak of but I will check the cards when I have them later.

Last line of pull the void (before the trigger description):
"This action cannot be taken if there are no other friendly models left to activate"

[Blacks85]

Can you explain me how do you believe Tara is fine?

or even high risk / reward?

Because I like her, I've played her...and I still believe is very underpowered as the nothing beast and karina are. Same for void wretches, super useless. That's my opinion, of course.

• She can do 6 AP but what she really do? Give fast to all our model and then? IF you keep doing, the damage you spread around being significative as incredibly significative is the leak of a master on the battlefield.
• Karina is just too weak to even speak about? and the upgrade for 0 is totally useless.
• The nothing beast is not an henchman and it has almost no impact on the game being very slow. Moreover, it can be blown up by casting super easily. It is a little better with 0 upgrade...
• The void wretch have no mobility and no damage. Even if you give other enemy fast they will do almost no dmg. with 2/3/4 and their ridiculous MI 4. Other action are even more useless....

I'd really like she could be fair for the game, But I believe she is not.

[daniello_s]

17 minutes ago, Blacks85 said:

Can you explain me how do you believe Tara is fine?

or even high risk / reward?

Because I like her, I've played her...and I still believe is very underpowered as the nothing beast and karina are. Same for void wretches, super useless. That's my opinion, of course.

• She can do 6 AP but what she really do? Give fast to all our model and then? IF you keep doing, the damage you spread around being significative as incredibly significative is the leak of a master on the battlefield.
• Karina is just too weak to even speak about? and the upgrade for 0 is totally useless.
• The nothing beast is not an henchman and it has almost no impact on the game being very slow. Moreover, it can be blown up by casting super easily. It is a little better with 0 upgrade...
• The void wretch have no mobility and no damage. Even if you give other enemy fast they will do almost no dmg. with 2/3/4 and their ridiculous MI 4. Other action are even more useless....

I'd really like she could be fair for the game, But I believe she is not.

Activate her first to get reactivate.

Triple walk to position her.

At the bottom of the turn walk, unbury your beat-stick, give him fast and send him at the juiciest target.

Next turn win initiative (Knowledge of Eternity), bury your beat-stick giving him fast and re position by walking twice. At the bottom of this turn unbury beat-stick and re position her gain - beat-stick goes for another target.

 

Rinse and repeat

BTW I did not know that she needs some extra buff.

[Bodiless]

15 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Activate her first to get reactivate.

Triple walk to position her.

At the bottom of the turn walk, unbury your beat-stick, give him fast and send him at the juiciest target.

Next turn win initiative (Knowledge of Eternity), bury your beat-stick giving him fast and re position by walking twice. At the bottom of this turn unbury beat-stick and re position her gain - beat-stick goes for another target.

 

Rinse and repeat

BTW I did not know that she needs some extra buff.

If Tara is triple walking first activation, how did you get the beat-stick buried? Honest question, I only played Tara once and it was against Levi so I really didn't get a chance to play with the bury mechanics.

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, Bodiless said:

If Tara is triple walking first activation, how did you get the beat-stick buried? Honest question, I only played Tara once and it was against Levi so I really didn't get a chance to play with the bury mechanics.

With a little help from this guy!

[Mikey_C]

1 minute ago, Bodiless said:

If Tara is triple walking first activation, how did you get the beat-stick buried? Honest question, I only played Tara once and it was against Levi so I really didn't get a chance to play with the bury mechanics.

There are lot's of ways.

Dead of Winter upgrade and hire a Death Marshal
Hire Hannah with her upgrade
Use the trigger off a void wretch/Nothing beast

Those would be the most common. 

[SpiralngCadavr]

Black85-

6 AP includes summoning as ressers or a lot of okay attacks, repositioning and then unburying and chain activating, and handing out AP like candy.

karina is extremely strong for a 5ss summoner, but is fragile and resource demanding. She's a finesse piece, but a decent pistol on top of 12+SS of fully functional summons at a pretty good range and chain activating is fantastic. I'll take her any scenario that doesn't punish you for fragile models.

Nothing beast is a finesse piece, but yeah, still a bit underpowered/poor return.

Wretches are cheap scheme runners. Of course they're bad at attacking.

The long version, point here

[SpiralngCadavr]

And yeah, as mikey says, other sources. I'll only take her burying spell if I'm really strapped for points or trying something weird.

[Lucidicide]

1 hour ago, Jordon said:

So my question to the community is this. If you could design one upgrade for Tara, what would it look like?

Just a two part warning: 1) This will blow your mind and 2) I'm on my lunch, so... I'm just having fun

Name: The True Nothingness

Cost: 1ss

Abilities:

True Void: This ability does nothing. You take this Upgrade to handicap yourself for how awesome Tara is.

[daniello_s]

24 minutes ago, Aaron said:

Just a two part warning: 1) This will blow your mind and 2) I'm on my lunch, so... I'm just having fun

 

  Hide contents

 

Name: The True Nothingness

Cost: 1ss

Abilities:

True Void: This ability does nothing. You take this Upgrade to handicap yourself for how awesome Tara is.

 

 

Jaysus!... Aaron... You are my hero!...

 

[valhallan42nd]

Give her a an upgrade that prevents cheating or modification of initiative for that turn for the cost of a scheme marker or corpse marker. Call it Eater of Omens or Discardable Moments.

[D_acolyte]

2 minutes ago, valhallan42nd said:

Give her a an upgrade that prevents cheating or modification of initiative for that turn for the cost of a scheme marker or corpse marker. Call it Eater of Omens or Discardable Moments.

But how many things does that actually affect, I think there are only 2 models with ill omens and a few upgrades that give a positive flip. Also saying that she needs and upgrade to counter something like an upgrade she has seems odd.

[SpiralngCadavr]

IDK, yeah, initiative isn't all that essential to her, unless you're taking the NB/wretches, and at that point you're probably already taking the positive initiative, which is way less situational.

[Jordon]

I'll admit that I don't play Tara as much as many of you have but one of my biggest pet peeves is just how many stipulations many of her abilities have. A few examples

Sympathetic Echoes: I have never had this work for me yet. I'm sure people have their stories of how this trigger completely wrecked face, but in my opinion it's an obscenely difficult trigger to pull off for such a situational effect. Would it be overpowered if she had one of the  built into her attack?

Glimpse the Void: This has to be the most bandaid'ed ability she has as it seems like they are constantly releasing new ways to burry models. Having it be a simple duel makes it somewhat un-reliable and using fast as a way to increase the TN is an example of a huge risk that may or may not pay off. 

Pull the void: It's short ranged, has a decently high TN and cannot be used if she is the last model to activate. I just feel like it's highly penalized due to Tara's potential to reactivate. 

Other issues I have

Voiceless Words/Long Forgotten Magics - Both Karina and the NB have upgrades that "fix" them and so they will almost never have the opportunity to take this upgrades (not that they are particularly great, but still)

Whispers from the Darkness: This is a cool ability, but again I just find it too difficult to use due to its high TN. The problem with this ability is that your often going to burn your high cards trying to get this ability to go off and then the action you borrow has no resources left to actually work from.

Knowledge of Eternity/Obliteration Symbiote: Both being almost mandatory upgrades (especially with beast bomb) and both being 2ss. It's just very expensive.

 

To me it just feels like most of her abilities have really high TN and require very specific circumstances. I'm just wondering if this is a direct result from her having the ability to gain 6AP. 

[valhallan42nd]

1 hour ago, D_acolyte said:

But how many things does that actually affect, I think there are only 2 models with ill omens and a few upgrades that give a positive flip. Also saying that she needs and upgrade to counter something like an upgrade she has seems odd.

There are only two models that do that, but if you play Neverborn and Gremlins, how many times do you see Doppleganger and Trixiebelle? Being able to cheat initiative is very powerful. Also, multiple "Expert Sleuth" discards is key to  getting an excellent turn 2/3 Sonnia nukefest. There is no defense against Ill Omens. There should be.