Somer summoning questions

[Guildenstern]

I played my 5th game of Malifaux, I think it was, vs. a Rasputina crew, for the first time, a bit ago and I've been trying to get an idea what to do better.

Course I got slaughtered. A lot of that was me not quite getting all the combos in the right order for Somer - and totally forgetting about Survival of the fittest sigh. And he totally failed to summon one round. And I also had no idea how to combat Rasputina's Ice mirror chaining thing.

Anyway we had Reconnoiter for strategy; I chose plant evidence and Line in the sand for schemes; one of the ones my opponent chose was assasinate. (I don't recall whole pool sorry) This is only the second time I've played with any strategy and schemes and we're not yet using any of the new ones even.

I'm playing Somer (Family Tree, Can O Beans), with 3 bayou gremlins to start, a slop hauler, Sammy, Lenny (Hide in the Mud), and two Skeeters. Idk what my opponents crew is now sorry I'm mainly focusing on my own mistakes and trying to figure out what I could do better.

Right off I made mistake of not realizing Sammy could still take upgrades, and that I could have stoned to prevent damage, so I got that one now. Second mistake I think I made was after the first summoning of Bayou Gremlins, and healing them, I didn't go reckless and move up the field but held them back in Lenny's bubble more, which ended up counter productive.

I did get some markers down for line in the sand, and my opponent and I got embroiled in combat with Lenny being the main target, after Sammy went down. Lenny being the assasinate target. I moved the slop hauler up to try to help keep Lenny healed up to deny him his points. I also realized then that a better upgrade for Lenny would probably have been Dirty Cheater, and I should have used his Pet the Piggy action rather than trying to go mano o mano so to speak.

So some of the questions I came up with during this game are:

How do you deal with a master like Raspuntina generally, to disrupt the chain thing? do you simply try to stay out of LoS? I realize this is a hugely open question but any help is appreciated.

Somer's Survival of the Fittest - if a gremlin dies within the range, *when* does he draw the cards? Is it immediately after it dies? end of the turn? I get the usefulness of this ability I'm just fuzzy on the mechanics

For those who also summon - when do you want to stop? And what do you generally do with Somer once you stop summoning? I had him at the back for pretty much a lot of the fight. Should I be moving him up the field with bayou gremlins in tow?

 

Anyway, advice is always welcome I've still got a ton to learn so I'll take all the help I can get!

[Dogmantra]

1 hour ago, Guildenstern said:

How do you deal with a master like Raspuntina generally, to disrupt the chain thing? do you simply try to stay out of LoS? I realize this is a hugely open question but any help is appreciated.

As Som'er, you're pretty lucky actually because you have access to Skeeters. Oh my goodness Skeeters are your best friends in this matchup. You want to identify the irritating ice mirror targets and fly your skeeters into them. Defensive stance if you have the AP and cards. Just keep as much stuff engaged as possible because then it is not able to be used as an ice mirror. If you can, get Rasputina engaged with a Skeeter so she can't cast at all. Just bear in mind if your opponent has a Snow Storm, it can place Rasputina in base contact. Also, make sure to take cover as much as possible to cut her efficiency.

In general, for blasty masters, Merris LaCroix is your friend. Not only is she a really fantastic scheme runner, but she has an ability which makes all friendly models within 6 of her immune to damage from and . It paints a pretty big target on her head, so keep her out of sight, behind Lenny is a good one, or behind terrain if possible. Also be aware that when she dies she explodes and hands out burning, but best case scenario she won't die.

1 hour ago, Guildenstern said:

Somer's Survival of the Fittest - if a gremlin dies within the range, *when* does he draw the cards? Is it immediately after it dies? end of the turn? I get the usefulness of this ability I'm just fuzzy on the mechanics

When it dies.

It's also a neat way to "heal" Gremlins - if you have a Bayou Gremlin on one or two wounds that has already activated this turn, use it to summon off and it will die, you draw two cards and summon a new 2 wound Bayou Gremlin that can then activate.

1 hour ago, Guildenstern said:

For those who also summon - when do you want to stop?

There is no easy answer - the best I can do is "when you have enough Bayou Gremlins". Turns 1 and 2 are generally fine to dedicate to summoning. 3 and 4 are more niche. 5 only if necessary. It depends a lot on what's happening. Generally you want to keep enough around that you're out-activating your opponent, and you want enough activations to do whatever it is you want to do. You'll also want to summon more on Reconnoiter to keep the table corners controlled, compared to Reckoning for example. It's something you will pick up over time. Also depends on your hand. If you've got a hand of garbage or a hand of face cards I would focus more effort on fighting than unreliable summoning or summoning where you're spending really good cards.

1 hour ago, Guildenstern said:

And what do you generally do with Somer once you stop summoning? I had him at the back for pretty much a lot of the fight. Should I be moving him up the field with bayou gremlins in tow?

Whatever you want him to! He's one of the most versatile masters in the game, and definitely the most versatile in faction. If you're willing to use high cards on him, his gun is really terrifying. Generally I use it as a way to insta-kill models that step out of cover, with a focus+shoot, with either a stone or Do It Like Dis! for a ram. He's also fairly good in melee. Minimum damage 1 is bad, but his 2" engagement and general mobility are big strengths. Use it either when your opponent is out of cards or you don't care about damage and just want to keep them engaged. I don't often use Bigger Hat Than You but that's also great to use once you're done needing a hand (i.e. when you're done summoning) , especially against other summoners or masters with equal or lower Wp than 6. Don't worry about bringing him forwards, with Loudest Squeel, decent stats and Bayou Two Card he's very difficult to pin down and actually kill. Since you're going to have the mask aura up for summoning anyway, I like to hit him a couple of times with Bayou Gremlins to push him up field.

 

General Som'er summoning tips:

I've stopped using a Slop Hauler with summoning Som'er. You're going to put up masks for Do It Like Dis for summoning, and Lightning Bugs have a heal trigger on masks. The one downside is you need to hit an ally for the heal to go off around them, but you can easily do it on Lenny or someone else who can take the hit, and it's a 2 wound heal in a 3 around the target - generally you'll have 6 bayous who are hurt, and this will fully heal all of them for 1 AP instead of 2AP on a Slop Hauler for only 4 models healed.

This is more a tip for Bayou Gremlins in general, but use Focus! A attack flip is roughly equivalent to +2 Sh which is good, but the real reason you do it is for cheateable damage flips. Sure you're not going to drop cards unless you really need that severe damage, but you can bayou two card weak damage flips away and have a much better chance of dealing moderate or severe. It's really rare that I don't focus with a Bayou Gremlin who's going to take a shot these days.

Don't be afraid to sacrifice Bayou Gremlins for the cause - run 'em up and engage things that need engaging. They're disposable, and preventing a big nasty from charging or being able to shoot is really frustrating for your opponent when it's because of a 3ss minion that you probably didn't even pay for. You can also shoot your own Bayou Gremlins to blast off them onto enemies if the enemy has only a couple of wounds and you really want to guarantee they'll die.

Also tomes trigger on Bayous is surprisingly good, like we all know Dumb Luck is what they're known for, but it can be a pretty good way of plinking multiple enemies at once without duels, especially if you focus (or shoot your own models, see above point). Tomes is a weird aura to put up with Do It Like Dis but it's not necessarily a bad one!

[Guildenstern]

Thanks a lot that's awesome help!

I love Somer and I really want to stick with him til I 'get it' so this is very helpful!

[Omenbringer]

I would also add that Get Your Bro can be used as a card draw mechanic as well.

As for when to stop summoning, well for me it only really stops when my last Bayou Gremlin has died (since you cant summon one without one). Early turns the summon factory is in highest gear, mid turns it tapers off a bit but is still something that I usually do at least once, and late turns depending upon where I am in the VP amount.

Focus is good, but I think Encouragement is better. It is a lot more versatile and doesn't require the expenditure of an AP (so more attacks). Keep in mind I am more of a "Punches in Bunches" player than one good hit (if you want that then play the Kin they are better at it) so your experiences may differ.

Dogmantra and I disagree on the use of Slop Haulers, I always take one in a Som'er Summon Factory. It keeps everything functioning, however, you need to protect them and be ready to play without them. This last part is where knowing all the layers of a staple Som'er crew are important.

[Dogmantra]

I do think Slop Haulers are incredible and I use them 100% of the time when I'm not playing Summon'er, I just think in this instance you can get away without one. A Lightning Bug brings a little more to the table imo. You can easily swap it out for the Sloppy without changing all that much though. I do agree that you should be ready to play without one.

 

And yeah, Encouragement is good but I find I get more mileage out of cheateable damage flips than the to attack. Encouragement is definitely better to make sure you have a cheateable attack flip for e.g. cover.

[Omenbringer]

Encouragement also helps with those pesky target defenses that force flips prior to the attack such as Terrifying.

Cheatable damage is a nice thing, but again I only count on generating 1 Wd per attack action, so ties are acceptable for me (and if I have the Black Joker in hand and the Red Joker roaming, preferable). My biggest hesitation with trying to generate large damage values from Bayou Gremlin's is that it generally kills the Bayou in the process (Dumb Luck). Additionally, cheatable damage is only really in play if you have Control Cards that make it worth achieving. I know some really depend upon Bayou Two Card for this but honestly I find it to have a very limited range of application, i.e. only really in play when the flipped card value is very low (< or = to 4) otherwise I find it a liability.

[Dogmantra]

Well, that's sort of the point of managing a cheateable damage flip on Bayou Gremlins. You make it much more likely that you get moderate or severe because if it's weak damage you just Bayou Two Card it away. It's kind of like a , but one that doesn't trigger if the first card you flip is moderate or severe. It makes What If More Powder much more likely to do anything at all, too. I'm definitely not dropping face cards for damage with Bayou Gremlins unless I have something that needs to be dead that instant.

[Vorschlag]

Guildenstern

I run/summon a swarm of bayou gremlins to soak up activation's and to spread over the field.

I take a slop hauler to keep the machine running.

I will sometimes run lenny if I want large damage output and exploding gremlins or pigs for a piggapult.

I often run a Warpig and hog whisperer as they effectively divert offensive attempts from my summoning machine and if left to their own devices crush, maim and destroy.

I really enjoy the taxidermist and feel he is largely underrated + damage flips are not to be taken lightly - he has taken out a few henchmen so far (turning snow storm into an exploding pig in tournament was one of his biggest highlights.

Skeeters are great with pull my finger and liquid bravery depending who you're facing.

Piggapult now often sees the field when facing anyone shooty especially if they have los tricks, Sonnia, Austringers, Rasputina etc.

I don't run Lacroix with Somer because fluff ... but I believe they are meant to be highly competetive with him, haven't needed to break this (personal) rule "yet".

Don't have the cards in front of me but would Burt's  "It's All in the Reflexes" apply to rasputinas attacks or is it only Sh (Burt + Lenny....brilliant)

[Guildenstern]

5 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

Guildenstern

I run/summon a swarm of bayou gremlins to soak up activation's and to spread over the field.

I take a slop hauler to keep the machine running.

I will sometimes run lenny if I want large damage output and exploding gremlins or pigs for a piggapult.

I often run a Warpig and hog whisperer as they effectively divert offensive attempts from my summoning machine and if left to their own devices crush, maim and destroy.

I really enjoy the taxidermist and feel he is largely underrated + damage flips are not to be taken lightly - he has taken out a few henchmen so far (turning snow storm into an exploding pig in tournament was one of his biggest highlights.

Skeeters are great with pull my finger and liquid bravery depending who you're facing.

Piggapult now often sees the field when facing anyone shooty especially if they have los tricks, Sonnia, Austringers, Rasputina etc.

I don't run Lacroix with Somer because fluff ... but I believe they are meant to be highly competetive with him, haven't needed to break this (personal) rule "yet".

Don't have the cards in front of me but would Burt's  "It's All in the Reflexes" apply to rasputinas attacks or is it only Sh (Burt + Lenny....brilliant)

It says Df (Ram) After succeeding, deal 2/3/4 damage to the attacker which cannot be cheated.

There's not a gun or melee mark. I guess, if I'm reading this rightly, as long as what she cast had a resist: Df Burt's Df would then trigger? assuming he had a ram, which with Lenny he prolly would.

After reading some more of the above posts, I'm not sure I'm following you when you (Dogmantra et al) talk about managing the cheatable damage flip, can you clarify possibly? Or do you basically mean when and when not to use Bayou Two card?

I'm probably getting Wong's box next, so I can get lightning bugs and Mancha Roja. It'll be interesting to see how they do.

I think Merris is probably also next on my list.

 

There's so much to really 'get' with this game! I love it but it can be frustrating at times. Still, Bayou Gremlins blowing themselves up - priceless.

Anyway thanks again for the help! appreciate it.

[Math Mathonwy]

3 minutes ago, Guildenstern said:

After reading some more of the above posts, I'm not sure I'm following you when you (Dogmantra et al) talk about managing the cheatable damage flip, can you clarify possibly? Or do you basically mean when and when not to use Bayou Two card?

Focus gives you a positive twist to damage (as well as Attack) and the most common way of hitting something is to have a difference that gives a negative twist. They cancel each other out and therefore you get a cheatable damage flip. And since Bayous have Bayou Two-card, they can cheat from the deck if they land weak damage. This is very efficient and quite powerful for a 3SS model.

3 minutes ago, Guildenstern said:

There's so much to really 'get' with this game! I love it but it can be frustrating at times. Still, Bayou Gremlins blowing themselves up - priceless.

Anyway thanks again for the help! appreciate it.

Gremlins have a steep learning curve, I think. Once you get the hang of them they are amazing but they have so many tricks up their sleeves that remembering everything is honestly not easy.

[Dogmantra]

7 hours ago, Guildenstern said:

After reading some more of the above posts, I'm not sure I'm following you when you (Dogmantra et al) talk about managing the cheatable damage flip, can you clarify possibly? Or do you basically mean when and when not to use Bayou Two card?

Math is right on the money. To break it down super simply just to be perfectly clear:

You focus and shoot an enemy. Focus gives you a to attack and damage.

Since you normally hit with a small difference, most of the time you're flipping damage at a , making it likely you'll flip weak damage.

If you focused, you gain a to the damage flip, which counteracts the , meaning it's much more likely you'll have a straight damage flip (you would need to tie to still be on a negative).

You then flip damage. If you flip moderate or severe, congratulations you did moderate or severe damage. If you flip weak damage, you might as well cheat that with Bayou Two Card, since the worst thing that can happen is you just flip weak again (ignoring the possibility of the black joker). It basically gives you a second chance to flip a higher damage result, and it works out quite well a lot of the time, especially when declaring What If... More Powder? because it makes you much more likely to get off a .

[Omenbringer]

Keep in mind there is a big difference in how Dogmantra and I are running the Bayou's.

He is running them toward a higher standard damage profile but less over all attacks (Focused and Bayou Two Card), I run mine toward more attacks with a lower standard damage profile (Drunk and Reckless with multiple damage flips to fish out the Red Joker). Each has their merits and applications. I face a lot of crews that feature Armor, higher Defense values, Incorporeal, or Hard to Wound, against these crews (where your either less likely to get to cheatable damage flips or damage reduction will lower the profile) I think my method is a bit more reliable as a damage producer (3 successful attacks will produce at least 2 Wds, 3 if the Black Joker is safely in your hand), against crews that don't feature these abilities in abundance or cluster close (something precious few of my opponents do) Dogmantra's is probably better (2 successful attacks will produce at least 1 Wd, 2 if the Black Joker is safely in your hand but has a higher incidence of turning up Moderate or Severe damage and 's with Bayou Two Card and cheating). Without Drunk and Reckless generating another AP for attacking I think the damage profiles are similar (both at average 2 Wds), however if you are looking to cycle the fate deck (to garner another chance at the Red Joker) my method is a bit better.

A single Bayou working for ties on the attack duel can cycle at least 3 cards (1 for the attack, 2 for the damage flip if you don't get the tie). Dogmantra's Focused Bayou method preserving the cheatable damage flip generates about the same (2 for the attack flip, 1 for the damage flip). The major difference occurs when you consider that a non Drunk and Reckless Bayou using my method can do this twice per activation compared to the Focused Bayou. With Drunk and Reckless in play it is not unlikely for a single Bayou to cycle 9 cards (slightly more than 1/5 th of the fate deck) per activation using my method. Against crews that feature a lot of Hard to Wound a single Bayou using this method can cycle 12 cards per activation (1 for the attack, 3 for the damage flip) with a top end of 16 cards in an activation (3 for the attacks, 12 for the damage (ties on the attack duels plus H2W) with one more if you fish the Red Joker on one of those damage flips).

If you have managed to shape the deck (perhaps through several Bayou Gremlin deaths triggering Survival of the Fittest control card draws in the turn prior and discards of several low value cards at the start of the new turn) then Dogmantra's method is better at preserving the decks now higher draw potential. If you haven't managed to shape the deck significantly and are looking to cycle the deck quickly to potentially fish out the Red Joker more than once, then mine is the better method.

As with all things Gremlin (especially Som'er) knowing when to apply which method is part of the steep learning curve. I have been playing Som'er from very near the start of the game and still consider myself a mere novice in terms of mastery of him.

[lusciousmccabe]

Nice breakdown guys. I'm not a gremlin player but it is cool to see the versatility they can get out of their generic mooks.

[Omenbringer]

@Lusciousmccabe: This is the main reason I consider Som'er one of the most competitive masters in the game. He and his crew are extremely versatile without requiring a large pool of models or upgrades. Instead of having to learn an entire factions worth of models you can really focus on refining just one Master and his staples. I would argue that his learning curve is why you don't see him more often

[Guildenstern]

Wow thanks guys! You're awesome!! this is brilliant

I also didn't realize focus impacted the damage flip >< I thought it was just the attack. I'd been tending to do it when shooting with Bayou Gremlins because a lot of my opponents have been hanging their models out near cover and I figured, at least that'll negate it somewhat.