McCabe's Dismount vs. Neutralize the Leader

[OneLittleThunder]

The new GG2016 Scheme Neutralize the Leader reads, in relevant part: "The first time the enemy Leader leaves play, score 2 VP." 

The Dismount ability on Lucas McCabe's card reads: "When this model would be killed or sacrificed, summon a Dismounted McCabe in base contact with this model and attach all Upgrades attached to this model to the summoned model. Remove this model from the game instead of killing or sacrificing it."

"Remove this model from the game" equals "leaves play," right? Seems simple enough.

However, the Dismounted ability on the Dismounted McCabe card reads, in relevant part: "When this model is summoned, if Lucas McCabe was this Crew's Leader, it becomes the Crew's Leader. This model counts as Lucas McCabe for Schemes."

So if Dismounted McCabe is the Crew's Leader, and counts as Lucas McCabe for Schemes, has the Crew's Leader really left play?

For consistency with the way this affects Leveticus, etc., I feel like it should count; but given that Dismounted McCabe specifically counts as Lucas McCabe for Schemes, I feel like it shouldn't.

Thoughts?

 

[Myyrä]

Dismounted Lucas is the leader before the mounted one is removed from play.

[solkan]

I agree with Myyrä, Dismounted Lucas becomes the leader of the crew (so Lucas McCabe is no longer the "enemy Leader") when it is summoned.  So when Lucas McCabe leaves the game, the scheme isn't satisfied.

Stepping through dismount:

When this model would be killed or sacrificed, summon a Dismounted McCabe in base contact with this model and attach all Upgrades attached to this model to the summoned model. Remove this model from the game instead of killing or sacrificing it.

Dismounted McCabe has the rule for when it is summoned:

When this model is summoned, if Lucas McCabe was this Crew's Leader, it becomes the Crew's Leader.

So in the middle of resolving everything, the model that leaves play isn't the crew's leader, even though it was when the attack was declared.  The reason why Dismounted McCabe includes a statement that it counts as Lucas McCabe for schemes is for all of the schemes that require noting down models.  You can punch Lucas McCabe off of his horse and still get full points for Take Prison.

There's no question about consistency with Leveticus because:

1.  Leveticus is still the crew's leader.

2.  The crew's leader leaves play because "When a model is buried it is removed from play (usually set on its stat card as a reminder)."

[solkan]

16 hours ago, Thimblesage said:

In this case then would one be able to score 5VP from this scheme? 

How are you arranging for "The first time ..." to happen twice?

The first time the enemy Leader is reduced below half hit points, you score a VP.

The first time the enemy Leader leaves play, you score 2VP.

After you switch leaders, if Nekima is killed those will be the second time each event is happening, not the first.  

[katadder]

doesnt nuetralize say the first time the model is removed from the game. so in theory thats the 1st time it is removed and mccabe would give up the points.

[Bengt]

There are a couple models that have a variation of that wording (see also Coryphee, Steam Arachnids) and I have always thought the intent was that from the viewpoint of Schemes the intended effect was basically "Nothing has happened and you didn't see anything, move along citizen.". So I don't think you are supposed score Neutralize when McCabe dismounts.

[Flib Jib]

Would this be the case for Neverborn with Nekima's  Birthright: trigger: 

Quote

Birthright: After killing a friendly Leader during this model's Activation, the Leader does not count as killed for Encounter purposes. This model heals 4 damage. This model counts as the Crew's  Leader for Encounter purposes for the remainder of the game.

Seems like the same thing but I would love your thoughts....

[Dogmantra]

1 hour ago, Thimblesage said:

Would this be the case for Neverborn with Nekima's  Birthright: trigger: 

Seems like the same thing but I would love your thoughts....

Hrm, I would say no actually. McCabe specifies that Dismounted McCabe becomes the leader before original McCabe is removed from the game. This happens after the friendly leader is killed, and notably the leader does not count as killed for encounter purposes, but is still removed from the game. It doesn't say that the removed model stops being the leader, and so that model has been removed from the game and imo would score you the 2 for Neutralise.

[Flib Jib]

In this case then would one be able to score 5VP from this scheme? 

[Nikodemus]

20 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

In this case then would one be able to score 5VP from this scheme? 

From the small rulebook page 93:

Quote

It is important to note that a player may never earn more than 4 VP from the Strategy or more than 3 VP from any one Scheme.

 

[Flib Jib]

14 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

From the small rulebook page 93:

It is important to note that a player may never earn more than 4 VP from the Strategy or more than 3 VP from any one Scheme.

 of course (slaps palm to forehead)