Hans - Ya or Nein?

[TheNewGuy2015]

Last match I took him and a trapper + I pay better on my master. That's a ton of fire power (and I wanted my opponent that we take more terrain, he denied - so this will teach him).

He applies slow that's worth gold. He can ignore armor, so weaken tanky pieces. And when it comes to melee, he can disarm your opponent (or at least let him use his good cards to prevent this. + He does not randomize.

I felt he was worth the 2 SS. But that's the nice part about Malifaux, you pick your models depending on terrain and if he has a good shooting corridor you can pick him.

So first turns apply slow and pierce armor, later he can finish off pieces in melee or just disarm heavy hitters. Everything possible through his field guide...

[rvdbarnes]

I've used him once in a lynch crew, so paid the mercenary tax on him too.

I happened to start turn one with the red joker and a 13 in hand, LOS to Karina and one shotted her, no more summoning for Tara today.

 

I was lucky with my hand, but I like the trigger options he brings, especially when you can influence your trigger through his zero action. An option to ignore incorporeal, armour or give slow is really nice. Especially when facing a crew with the hanged and Izamu regularly involved.

[KrazyIvan]

I mostly like taking him for schemes like Body Guard and Assassinate...and not necessarily for killing things. If I put him on the board for Body Guard my opponents have proven to be more likely to put things behind cover. That helps clue me in on what I need to kill with my main man Levi. For Assassinate I like targeting the enemy master specifically to force the player to discard. That sets them up for a double-channel, usually teleporting, charge from Levi (which and potentially do 16 damage, with a follow up attach with the third AP for Hard to Kill masters). I especially like taking him against Lilith since he can see through her trees (they are markers).

So I'd say like any model he is useful in the right situation.

Edited October 24, 2015 by KrazyIvan

[Drool_bucket]

I use Hans in almost every list I take.  He is a staple of mine because of how effective he is.

I will agree that pure SS cost to dmg output the trapper wins out.  I also agree that Hans can be a card hog at times.

But I don't use Hans because of his dmg output but because of his abilities to ignore so much an enemy tries to do.  Ignoring Wp duels during his activation is amazing, ignoring Markers.  Then his ability to ignore Armor or Incorporeal is the other key element.  Plus his full board range when focused.  Add in Scout the Field and he's crazy good.

I challenge any Outcast player to use him with Scout the Field and first turn remove your opponent's Totem or other low cost model immediately...  most opponents usually have a prime target.  Primordial Magic, Lost Love, the list goes on.  Performers die to a single shot.

Hans is really good.  My local meta is disgusted by him.  You just have to understand he's not there to lay damage, the Trapper does that.  He's there to snipe out key models.

[Kirby]

But the Trapper removes key models just the same for 2ss less.  Removing a key model at the top of Turn 1 is my favorite thing about them - Performers, Beckoners, Lilitu, Slop Haulers, totems, etc.  Good stuff!

[EnternalVoid]

Have to be pretty good to remove Lilitu or Beckoners in a single shot first turn *with 7wds*.  The RJ would have to be involved, that or some pretty impressive other tricks.

One problem a Trapper has compared to Hans with Scout the Field is that if your opponent makes you set up the Trapper first, he can at least manipulate his deployment to try and make sure that key model is not as vulnerable.  With Hans getting 36" and being able to ignore LOS it becomes a lot harder to insure it does not go off, his Sh6 also makes that harder.  That said this means Hans needs to be built into a list more, where the Trapper is a great General purpose sniper that is easier to fit into most lists.  That said I have killed plenty of Trappers Turn 1, some because they were to far forward, others becomes they were the closet target and I was not going to let them snipe me.  It is also harder to Lure Hans into trouble then a Trapper due to him generally being farther out and slower.  That all said you lose Hans, defiently if he has an upgrade and it is a pretty major lost to your list.  You lose a trapper and it hurts but is only 12% to 18% of your list.

[paxmiles]

Doesn't seem to be mentioned much here directly, but the main advantage over a Trapper is that Hans is a ENFORCER. This means he can be upgraded.

I challenge any Outcast player to use him with Scout the Field and first turn remove your opponent's Totem or other low cost model immediately...  most opponents usually have a prime target.  Primordial Magic, Lost Love, the list goes on.  Performers die to a single shot..

Exactly right, you can discard Scout the Field to allow Hans to make an action without needing LOS. Trappers can't do this because trappers can't take Scout the Field because they are minions.

Granted, there are certainly some boosts that apply to Minions which Hans doesn't benefit from, but I thought it was a point worth mentioning, as it really hasn't been directly pointed out in this thread.

[CapnBloodbeard]

On 10/27/2015 at 1:06 PM, EnternalVoid said:

That said this means Hans needs to be built into a list more, 

What do you mean by 'build hans into a list'?

I'm starting to wonder if targeting the enemy master with the hope of them dropping 2 cards could be a good use as well.......would probably only be of use if they've already discarded low cards for actions, otherwise they'll just discard a couple of low cards.  But if they discard some mid-range cards, then this could be pretty beneficial I'd think.  

 

Given I have 1 trapper and not 2, and I've had a few games where I really wanted a second sniper (well, one particular gremlin match...), I'm giving some thought into picking him up again.  Not randomising can be really handy too if I'm in melee a lot.

[Freman]

Imagine McTavish with I Pay Better and Scout the Field, Hans with Scout the Field, and two Trappers.

 

Go on. You know you want to.

[crimzzen]

Hans has gotten stronger with the new Show of Force scheme.  Could be a good way to help get that done each turn.

[DXXXVIII]

Its not so much about what hes really doing but what he could do.
When placing hans I never forget to tell my opponent that he "could" shoot his upgrades off and ignores armor etc I'ts card-costy but the pure possibility is what matters... Combined with scout the field... it just forces some considerations on your opponent.
I really like him for supporting and the versatility he brings to the table. (ignore incorp & armor, hand out slow)

[Freman]

Having experienced the carnage they can cause, I am now a convert to taking two Trappers. Against a Perdita crew (Francisco, 2 Austringers, Nephilim, Hunter, and Nino) they proved invaluable, wounding Franscisco so Von Schill could finish him off, killing both Austringers, and even Red Jokering Nino off the table. Always take two trappers.

 

EDIT: Actually looking at his cards, Nino has 8 wounds and Red Joker for Trapper only does 7 so I would have needed to use the second Trapper to finish him off. My opponent's error.

Perdita is annoying.

[EnternalVoid]

Nino only has 5 wounds, a Severe from a Trapper would kill him.  I think you might have been looking at Francisco who has 8wds *Papa and San have 9wds*

To answer CapnBloodbeard's question, the reason I feel you need to build Hans into a list is because with an upgrade he is almost 20% of your list.  You need a clear plan on what you are going to do with him and what he needs to do from you else you are not going to get a return on investing in him.  It is not necessarily saying he has to kill his points worth but he has to have enough of an effect on the game to make it worth having spent that on a single sniper model.  A trapper can be thrown in your list in a more general purpose role.  It can be harassment, it can tag team with another long range model to kill a model early in the game, it can fulfill objectives early on with From the Shadows or threat objectives *like if you know they have Power Ritual he can be posed in a place to threaten any soft things that try to make a break*.

Hans by himself lacks re-positioning, while he has a great deal of threat he is not the most threatening thing nor the most durable if they threaten him.  As for using him to draw cards from a Master, if you are smart you will generally consider what their objective is.  He cannot disarm a master and a lot of them are not armed or incorporeal.   So of his triggers only Kneecap really shines against a master.  Now if he is not focusing he has to wound, which you can gamble on a ss stopping.  If that slow is that crippling you can pay the cards, but I would lean to that only if he focused first.  That way he cannot double tap.  As for his little upgrade shooting trick, as requires an AP to activate unless he has a way to get fast he is not popping it off more than once generally and not at 36".  So it is pretty telegraphed move.

Hans works best when you have a plan for him and he can flow with the rest of your list, where a trapper can be subbed in for another model pretty easily due to is SS cost.  Not saying he does not do his job, just that he is not a generalist or a model to fill in a void in a list.

[Freman]

Whoops. My bad. Thanks for the correction.

[daniello_s]

Hans is IMO to dependant from terranin setting on the table. If there is many shooting lanes then he shines but on the proper build table he will possible make one or two attacks and the rest of the game he will waste his time

[CapnBloodbeard]

EternalVoid - that's a sensational post.  And that sort of thinking about return on investment for 20% of the list, it's a really good consideration for any model which I've never thought of before.

So what would you consider to be worthwhile purposes for him?

Given the AP cost, I'm a little wary of the upgrade shooting trick...

[EnternalVoid]

I have not done much with the latest pack of strats and schemes so I can not speak for them as much *our group is in a low point as we are doing an Imperial Assault campaign to throw some variation in*.  But with the older ones I would generally consider Hans if I can pull him forward somehow or be able to put him in a spot where I think I could get two normal shots off with him.  Stuff like Turf war and Reckoning become interesting if he can get a nice spot where he can plug away from, cannot be charged due to Disguise, and be a regular hindrance.  For me in those games he becomes clean up or denial.  For example in a game a while back in Turf war he was shooting into combats picking off models that had gotten almost killed *1 or 2 wounds left* so that my models would be free on the following turn and reduce what they had in the area around the marker.  Rather than use him as a long range sniper so much I use him as clean up duty when I have, I like that 18" range.  This is also nice if a certain Incorporeal or armored foe is annoying as you can take two normal shots at them after referencing the Field Guide.

The Upgrade shooting trick is best when you can get Fast or Focus outside your activation, and best used against that Annoying Henchmen or Enforcer than the master.  Examples are Francisco with his Wade in, Hannah with I Pay Better, Vik of Blood's Mark of Shezul, or beast with Pack Master.  These are generally the guys that are carrying the upgrades that are defining a major role in the crew and removing it will remove a significant synergy in the list.

another trick I have used in the past that caught some people off guard was for Protect Territory.  I would have the markers thrown down earlier in the game but left where if Hans double walked last turn he can claim them.  With Disguise and Df6 he is not easy to remove though he does have a lower Wd count.  Also one game I remember I had taken Power Ritual unrevealed and did not drop one in my corner at the beginning to make them second guess it.  Ended up dropping 4 on the center line but two were close enough to the corners for Power Ritual, last turn Hans dropped the one in my deployment for the third one.

[CapnBloodbeard]

I'm contemplating getting Hans to deal with Gremlins (Squeel all you want you little green prick, you're still in range)....and the 'not randomizing into melee' sounds pretty sweet too.  Especially for Viks, when leaving that beatstick with one wound left could be very, very bad if they win initiative

[steel762]

I use him to finish off things that Von hits. The not randomizing into melee is great for this. He does have a little high SS cost so you just kind of have to want to play him vs min/max build.  

[CapnBloodbeard]

I'm not nearly good enough to even know how to min/max build, so that's no big issue there....lol

I figure shooting off upgrades could be really useful against a McCabe crew, or against that new scheme which is 'whoever has the most upgrades near the middle'...forgoet what it's called

For that one, Hans at least is directly contributing to a scheme.