Lilith Sudden Darkness and Angry Wilds

[santaclaws01]

If the Cherub gives Lilith the Angry Wilds condition(a 3" hazardous terrain aura until end of turn) and Lilith makes a movement with that condition, would she count as moving through terrain for the purposes of Sudden Darkness(If the model moves through terrain they get +1 damage)

[Dirial]

Good question. I'd go with yes.

[zFiend]

Hm.. That's a tough one.

Why would you go with yes Dirial?

[Deluge]

It's an interesting question. I'd be tempted to say No as she is unaffected by Hazardous or Severe terrain.

[Dirial]

Well, because she moves through an area that is considered terrain. The furthest edge gets expanded away from her, but the area just below her feet (in front of her base) doesn't change its state until she moves past it. It just seem logical to me.

 

Once could argue that the area of her base is not hazardous terrain, and that are hollow, but she'd still touch the terrain with her base.

 

It's an interesting question. I'd be tempted to say No as she is unaffected by Hazardous or Severe terrain.

 

Yes, she is unaffected, but it's still there.

[zFiend]

Hm.. But isn't that thing an aura? So if she moves the aura moves and she remains unaffected of it?

[Deluge]

Hm.. But isn't that thing an aura? So if she moves the aura moves and she remains unaffected of it?

That is how I would expect it to play out

[AoS]

Lilith is all the time on the terrain, but she is not charging through it because the aura moves with her.

 

I would say that she gets the +1 Dg anyway, because while she is moving she is on terrain. But good question.

[Dirial]

Hm.. But isn't that thing an aura? So if she moves the aura moves and she remains unaffected of it?

 

Why would you expect the Aura not to affect her? Auras specifically do. And if she moves, she moves through the terrain effected by the aura, as well. That's my logic here. I could see this going both ways, I admit.

[Kadeton]

Angry Wilds specifically calls out that the area the model occupies counts as terrain, doesn't it? Seems unnecessary (given it's an aura) so I suspect it was added to clarify this exact situation.

[Deluge]

Why would you expect the Aura not to affect her? Auras specifically do. And if she moves, she moves through the terrain effected by the aura, as well. That's my logic here. I could see this going both ways, I admit.

I would expect the Aura not to affect her as she is unaffected by the effects of the Aura (Severe and Hazardous Terrain) as a result of being unaffected by the type of terrain being created by the aura I would argue that she would not take the damage associated with the terrain type. Would you argue in that case that she would still take the damage for moving through the aura even though she is unaffected by the terrain type that would cause this damage?

[Dirial]

I would expect the Aura not to affect her as she is unaffected by the effects of the Aura (Severe and Hazardous Terrain) as a result of being unaffected by the type of terrain being created by the aura I would argue that she would not take the damage associated with the terrain type. Would you argue in that case that she would still take the damage for moving through the aura even though she is unaffected by the terrain type that would cause this damage?

 

No. I would argue that she charges through terrain. She is not affected by it, but it's still terrain. Which form of terrain would you argue triggers the effect of her (0) instead?

[zFiend]

Why would you expect the Aura not to affect her? Auras specifically do. And if she moves, she moves through the terrain effected by the aura, as well. That's my logic here. I could see this going both ways, I admit.

Well my problem with this is as she moves the aura moves. She doesn't move through it at any point.

[Dirial]

Well my problem with this is as she moves the aura moves. She doesn't move through it at any point.

 

That's the point where our opinions differ. She moves through it all the time. The edges just creep along with her.

[zFiend]

That's the point where our opinions differ. She moves through it all the time. The edges just creep along with her.

Yeah. Complete opposites then. Huh.

[Dirial]

Don't think we'll resolve this from the currently cited rules. Lets see if some one can add something. I could absolutely see it ruled both ways.

[Deluge]

No. I would argue that she charges through terrain. She is not affected by it, but it's still terrain. Which form of terrain would you argue triggers the effect of her (0) instead?

Sorry work came up. I would argue the severe terrain triggers that effect. Interesting to see the differing views and arguements though

[Dirial]

Sorry work came up. I would argue the severe terrain triggers that effect. Interesting to see the differing views and arguements though

 

But she isn't affected by severe terrain either? I cannot see the logic in that.

[zFiend]

But she isn't affected by severe terrain either? I cannot see the logic in that.

Well yeah.. What do you mean Deluge?

[Deluge]

But she isn't affected by severe terrain either? I cannot see the logic in that.

 

 

Well yeah.. What do you mean Deluge?

 

Ignore me, I get what the question is asking now 

[solkan]

Is the issue that Lilith is starting and ending in the terrain, or ending in the terrain?  Because there are alternate formulations, if the "through" is the problematic aspect, like:

 

Cherub uses Rise Up to place the aura on some poor union miner, then Lilith uses Sudden Darkness and then declares a Charge at the miner.

 

Edit:  And, judging from the line of sight rules, "through" appears to include both 'starting in' and 'ending in'.

[Kadeton]

I don't think there's any confusion if the condition is on the Miner (or some other target whose aura Lilith moves through during the charge). It's that if the condition is on Lilith herself, the aura moves with her - is she really moving "through" it at that point, or simply along with it?

Personally, I'd give my opponent the bonus if it came up.

[Ludvig]

I'm with Dirial.
 
Is she in terrain - yes. is she moving - yes. Has he moved through any part of the battlefield considered terrain during this charge - yup. 
 
The Rise up action seems to be worded in a very unusual way to make this interaction even clearer.

 

As to moving through terrain or not...

General wording for movement (p42):

"Moving through severe terrain costs double the distance moved."

 

If we take this to mean the literal meaning of "moving in one side and out the other side" (the literal meaning, google "through definition") then almost no one would ever be affected by severe terrain so I think we have to be liberal with the meaning of through in all contexts of malifaux.

 

If lilith isn't counted as moving through it, then any other model the aura is centered on won't have it's movement reduced since it isn't moving "through" terrain, only moving within terrain that counts as severe... Seems weird to me.

[AoS]

I don't imagine the aura as a piece of scenography which moves with Lilith. She transforms that terrain within 3". So yes, she is moving through that terrain.

Anyway if a model moves and while moving touch a portion of terrain then the model is moving throug terrain.

[solkan]

Well, more importantly, imagine how the conversation would go:

 

Cherub uses Rise Up on some model other than Lilith.  That model activates, declares a walk, and then the player says "Since the model is within the aura the whole time, it hasn't moved through severe terrain and thus doesn't suffer the movement penalty."

 

Severe - Areas of severe terrain slow a model's movement. Moving through severe terrain costs double the distance moved. For instance, 1" of movement would be treated as 2" of movement.

 

That one inch of movement is going to be treated as 2" of movement if you're going in, coming out, or still within the terrain (whether it's just a big piece of terrain, or it's an aura centered around the model).

[Uktena]

Auras affect the source model. So she's in terrain. She suffers no I'll effects due to Master of Malifaux, but it's still there so Sudden Darkness activates.