Mr. Cooper's Dark Carnival - Playtesting Sessions (Week 1/20)

[Kalkris]

Okay, so: The Dark Carnival is coming out for GenCon, as a proxy crew for Colette's standard loadout (Colette, 3 Mechanical Doves, Cassandra, 2 Performers, and 2 Mannequins). We are getting a number of named models, themed after a circus troupe described in detail in the latest Wyrd Chronicles (images for the crew box are also in that issue). The Dark Carnival proxies as Colette, as mentioned above.

 

I am not satisfied with that alone.

 

What I have been tossing about as an idea both on this forum and on AWP is the idea of being amateur (or better!) devs and betatesters, all of us, and creating our own set of rules for Mr. Cooper and his Dark Carnival.

 

And that we did.

 

Now we are onto Stage 2 of this wonderful journey of ours: Playtesting. If you have been watching this space with great interest (or any interest at all, even), you probably have done so with the interest of playtesting this unofficial crew. That, or you probably just want to watch our process and progress. We finished the brainstorm rather early, and now it is the public's turn to give as much feedback as they desire.

 

Unfortunately, I got a reply from Aaron Darland about getting this crew ruleset into the Chronicles and he said that between people skimming the Chronicles for things, and people just plain not reading the Chronicles, it wouldn't reach a wide enough audience and those it would reach may accidentally take the crew as solicited and official. So, the Chronicles is out, but I'm still by all means down to do this! Hope you are too.

 

If you are comfortable working on a set of custom rules for casual games, and willing to make a constructive contribution, please feel free to join in on this great adventure.

 

~~~~~

 

DISCLAIMER: This project is not in any way supported or endorsed by Wyrd Games. I am not affiliated with Wyrd except by virtue of being a Henchman. Any games of Malifaux (Wyrd's game) involving this ruleset must be approved by all parties involved before being conducted. Official Wyrd events may not include this ruleset.

 

~~~~~

 

Credit thus far goes to:

Solicitor 6 (major idea contributor)

Da Git (major idea contributor)

Manic Mouse (major idea contributor)

Crush_Jansen (major idea contributor)

SpiralingCadaver (for providing stat card templating)

Phinn (idea contributor)

Dirial (idea contributor)

Fetid Strumpet (for recommending I contact SpiralingCadaver)

Patzer (idea contributor)

Victoria (idea contributor)

Bstorz (idea contributor)

Clockwork Top Hat (idea contributor)

Jafar (idea contributor)

Adran (idea contributor)

TimH (idea contributor)

and myself, as well as anyone who voted.

 

~~~~~

 

Models representing models:

 

Mr. Cooper (30mm) = Colette

Lola (30mm) = Cassandra

Flying Monkey (30mm) x3 = Mechanical Dove (x3)

Thin Lizzy (30mm) = Performer

Mercury (30mm) = Performer

Mummerette (30mm) x2 = Mannequin (x2)

 

~~~~~

 

The model cards for this week will be put in the post below. Below that, the schedule will be posted. At that point, Da Git wants to reserve the following post. After that, please, by all means, have at it! This is a space for both balancing and typos, so do what you can to do both.

 

 

~Lil Kalki

[Kalkris]

Models:

 

Week 1:

 

Open Spoiler

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=81335173893551641005

 

 

[Kalkris]

So, with the time we have, we will have 6 weeks for thematic, 6 for Arcanists and 6 for Neverborn. I want to split it like that alternating by week:

 

Week 1 (7/6-7/12) - Thematic initial - look over crew to start, changes can be made

Week 2 (7/13-7/19) - Arcanist initial - no changes until Neverborn initial ends - Wave 1

Week 3 (7/20-7/26) - Neverborn initial - changes applied at end - Wave 1

Week 4 (7/27-8/2)- Thematic #2 - look over crew with changes, changes can be made that do not override W1-3

Week 5 (8/3-8/9) - Break for GenCon recuperation

Week 6 (8/10-8/16) - Arcanist #2 - no changes until Neverborn initial ends - Wave 1

Week 7 (8/17-8/23) - Neverborn #2 - changes from W4-6 applied at end - Wave 1

Week 8 (8/24-8/30) - Thematic #3 - make sure nothing degenerate affects thematic crew

Week 9 (8/31-9/6) - Arcanist #3 - make sure nothing degenerate affects Arcanist faction - Wave 1

Week 10 (9/7-9/13) - Neverborn #3 - make sure nothing degenerate affects Neverborn faction - Wave 1

Week 11 (9/14-9/20) - Thematic #4 - Repeat Week 1

Week 12 (9/21-9/27) - Arcanist #4 - Repeat Week 2, add Wave 2

Week 13 (9/28-10/4) - Neverborn #4 - Repeat Week 3, add Wave 2

Week 14 (10/5-10/11) - Thematic #5 - Repeat Week 4

Week 15 (10/12-10/18) - Arcanist #5 - Repeat Week 6, add Wave 2

Week 16 (10/19-10/25) - Neverborn #5 - Repeat Week 7, add Wave 2

Week 17 (10/26-11/1) - Thematic #6 - Repeat Week 8

Week 18 (11/2-11/8) - Arcanist #6 - Repeat Week 9, Add Waves 2 & 3

Week 19 (11/9-11/15) - Neverborn #6 - Repeat Week 10, Add Waves 2 & 3

Week 20 (11/16-11/22) - Final - Done!

[Kalkris]

Typo I just found (and a good example template to use):

 

Model: Various

 

Ability/Action: The Haze Only Gets Thicker

 

Typo: Simple Wp duels generated by this model and upgrades add the current Turn number to their TN.

 

~~~~~

 

Model: Thin Lizzy

 

Ability/Action: Greet The "Guests"

 

Typo: Chatty should read "Enemy models within 6 may not take Interact actions." is presently represented by an "a".

[Da Git]

Here's what I'd like people to playtest (I have a 10month old and am the only Malifaux player in Kyoto, so it's a tad difficult for me to get games in... I'll do my best!)

 

• Flying Monkeys - 3 of these guys look like a really good flanking force that can do it all, they can teleport each other up the field, they've got a good attack & most importantly, they're significant Minions.  Is this scheme marker potential a problem?  I'd be happy for them to drop back to Insignificant Peons (I know the poll voted the other way, but it was a close run thing...)
• Oddity Upgrades - I'd like Welcome to My Nightmare to be 1ss because I want it to be a valid option if you don't take any Oddity upgrades (indeed you can't if you only take Showgirl and Carny models).  I also feel that the upgrades are pointed right at the moment at 1,2,3 +1 for WTMN
• If we leave it at 2ss, then how are the oddity upgrades?  What feels right/strong/weak? 
• Thin Lizzy - does she have too much on her for a 6ss model?  Should we cut a (0)?
• Mercury - How does Barbell Swing go in the game?

 

They're the main points

 

Cheers guys & have fun!

[Jeebus]

Model: Mercury

 

Ability/Action: Don't Stop Me Now

 

Typo: If this model is reduced (omited!) by . . . 

 

(reduced to what?!)

 

Model: Mercury

 

Ability/Action: Headlong Charge

 

Typo: . . . instead of two AP 1 Attack Actions. 

 

 

Model: Mercury

 

Ability/Action: I Want To Break Free

 

Typo: Whenever this model succeeds in an opposed duel in which . . .

[Da Git]

Cheers for finding those errors!  I've edited the base files (wasn't that fun!) on Dropbox.

 

What do you think about the rules Jeebus?  If you could get a game in with them that would be amazing!

 

Also one last thing we really need to check, is how fun is it to play against?  Are there too many simple duels?  I've tried to make so they're a lowish number but the sheer quantity of them can empty your hand pretty quick (maybe!)  It's also quite frustrating burning a face card (& especially the red!) on a simple duel!  Then there's the Black!

[Jeebus]

I'm going to try to get a game in with this rule set on Friday. The only consern I have after skimming the cards is that the costs of each model makes the box 52ss before any upgrades. So you can't play the full box.

[Jeebus]

The tactical action on the monkeys should probably say other friendly flying monkeys. As it stands you can place 5" then place the other two monkeys within 3" THEN place the original again within 3"

It makes the charge worthless. If you are in charge range of an enemy model you can instead do this action, get into grab & drop range. Pick that enemy model up and place it between the two other monkeys and then place the original monkey to lock the model in a triangle. A couple more drops and that model is probably dead and you can move on to the next.

[Da Git]

Mummerettes are a typo they're only 5ss. That should bring it back to 50ss.

I'd also be keen to drop the points so you can fit in a few upgrades. Suggestions?

[Kalkris]

The tactical action on the monkeys should probably say other friendly flying monkeys. As it stands you can place 5" then place the other two monkeys within 3" THEN place the original again within 3"

It makes the charge worthless. If you are in charge range of an enemy model you can instead do this action, get into grab & drop range. Pick that enemy model up and place it between the two other monkeys and then place the original monkey to lock the model in a triangle. A couple more drops and that model is probably dead and you can move on to the next.

That acting monkey moving an extra 3" was definitely not intended, to be sure. This will change with week 2, but that was most certainly not the intention of that action.

 

And, definitely do some testing on the Monkeys, both with and without that extra placement.

 

Furthermore, to my knowledge the Monkeys were supposed to have a (1) melee attack action too, so hence the Cg stat. i would say the following:

 

we could either:

 

a) keep that (1) Ml attack off of the card and remove its charge (and change nothing else but the following), or

 

put the (1) Ml attack on it, and keep it as is (except for the following)

 

c) keep the Cg stat (for Barreling Monkeys sake) and refrain from a (1) engagement-based attack action.

 

remember that charges only use 1ap engagement-based attacks unless otherwise stated. So no double G&D.

 

Based on sheer offensive might, though, i am down with making them peons, and mayyyyyyyyyyyyybe making them insgnificant. i like them being significant peons, but that significant status will need to be further tested. After all, it might even detract from their killing sprees. Also, a bump down to 4 for that is okay, significant or no. we'd need to down a couple of stats if we want them to cost 3 and be lower in station/siginifcance. if we do that, we bump any of these stats down collectively by a net total of, i'd say, 4 points: Df, Wk, Cg. Shouldn't put a given stat down by more than 2 though.

 

right now we have Df6, Wk5, and Cg8. i propose, without looking to it myself so far, that we make the Monkeys Df5, Wk4, and Cg7. Also bring the personal placement of the tactical to 4" elsewhere instead of 5".

 

And again, these will require testing in all forms, so that's totally alright. We can wait till Week 2, 3, or even 4 to do conceptual testing in changing a model's entire dynamic (5ss to 3ss, minion to peon, significant to insignificant, etc). The balance to keep the model fair is different (the (2) tactical for example does need immediate tweaking to fix, i think).

 

~Lil Kalki

 

Also, another quick typo to fix:

Model: Various

 

Ability/Action: The Haze Only Gets Thicker

 

Typo: "...this model and upgrades attached to this model add the current..."

[Da Git]

I'd be keen to leave off the (1) attack, since G&D is so strong.

 

I was actually thinking the other way, Insignificant Minions (are there any other of these in the game?) due to its rarity. 

 

The stat drops sound ok  (to me, Df5, Wk 5, Ch6 sound better though & leave the (2) as is but re-worded with other monkeys), as you said, need to to test.  I'll also re-word Barrelling Charge to make it clear they make no attacks on the charge.

 

I also asked Razhem to look over the rules (I respect his knowledge, even if we do often disagree due to opposing playstyles!), here's his response.

 

For Mummerettes, if they're still too expensive for what they bring, we can add a Dance Partner-esque ability to place into base contact with the other one within 12" for a (1) action.

 

 

As for the Dark Carnival, I´ve had a quick lookover it although I don´t intend to participate actively.

 

I like the haze mechanic and all of the simple duels, but I feel in the later turns it will become insuferable Mr Cooper for example goes from being pretty easyish to take down the first two turns to being outright hell in the later ones. A lot of stuff tends to be sealed in Malifaux during the first 3 turns though, so I have no idea how a crew made of Riders (as in slow bloomers) can behave without feeling underwhelming or overwhelming depending on how good the enemy crew´s approach is. This is going to be the big thing to test, balancing feeling kind of meh in the early game and overbearing in the late game.

 

Mr Cooper:

 

- Nothing´s free seems like a pretty dangerous specially since he is packing a decapitate trigger

-I don´t know how to feel about his defensive trigger, on one hand it seems incredibly frustrating since you don´t even do the damage like with other body swap abilities, but you can cancel it with an averageish card the first few turns, so don´t really know how to feel about it, same applies to Danse Macabre

- Danse Macabre´s description doesn´t roll down the tongue too much either, try to divide it into two phrases.

- The Haze only gets thicker has a typy where it´s missing a "by" between "generated" and "this model"

 

Flying Monkeys:

 

-  Seem like an interesting concept, bot Grab and Drop is a VERY heavy duty attack action. Don´t really have a problem with their teleport shenanigans and they are still 5 SS with tissue thin constitution. Also, important detail, Barreling Monkeys doesn´t really do much of anything since they don´t have an 1 AP action to do, so how I see it, they charge, do nothing with both AP and can only grab and drop, hell, I´m not even sure if they could charge. I´d go for a more standard attack action and maybe make a grab and drop similar action when they pile in or as a trigger on damage if more than a Monkey is engaging.

 

Lola:

 

That Horror has to go down, or goes up and she loses the Haze. She has a lot of simple duel generating auras. Her attack is very bipolar, but that built in + to damage makes her very scary and too reliable for my tastes. But then again, she is easiish to kill in the early game... I´d also add that a crew with so many simple duels really shouldn´t have too many "discard or" effects on them, they already devour your hand by nickel and dimming it.

 

Mercure:

 

Surprised at no haze. Surprised at all the Freddy Mercury references and the Ice Ice Baby joke kind of flops on me. The res of the package seems nice, though I think he warrants being a bit hardier. It´s also not clear if Barbell Spin hits friendlies too.

 

Thin Lizzi:

 

Another scary late bloomer with a manipulative that works all turn. Outside of that, she is mostly a lure bot, so no big issues.

 

Mumerette:

 

Seems horribly expensive for what they bring. Easy to kill, manipulative doesn´t help much till turn 3-4, no other actions outside of a 0, is it still in early stages?

- Note as 5ss, they're a little cheaper!

 

No More Mr Nice Guy:

 

Kind of random to have a beater upgrade on him. Monky style horror duel makes a comeback, a bit worried about those. It is 3 SS though and only Ml 5. Which takes me to...

 

Welcome to My nightmare:

 

This is clearly the go to limited, blow Smoke does a ton of damage now to the main target with the burning 3 and can easilly be done thanks to the 0 action and the poison combos incredibly well with standard performers. Having access to the oddity upgrades is icing, but still very strong icing.

 

What is Freely Given:

 

Seems insane to me, he uses his 0 action to bully low wp models to do crap for them and steal the enemy masters cache. It´s a once per turn thing and he does have other strong 0 actions, but man, it´s basically a very hatefilled obey. The TN is certainly high but it´s an attack action anyway, you always expect to need a high card for those.

 

Unpaid Debts:

 

Looks pretty lame, yes, it´s a revive, but at 2 SS the wound seems incredibly costly. I´d just have it be something completely different though.

 

Take Center stage:

 

PRetty cool upgrade, like the implications and already has some pretty heavy restrictions of when and how, fine by me.

 

Major Gaff:

 

The characteristics given are pretty irrelevant. Both incredibly powerful and probably can do some insane stuff with the right minion.

 

Moderate Gaff:

 

Giving out showgirl can be pretty big, the abilities are mostly ok though but nothing to throw confeti about.

 

Minor Gaff:

 

Characteristis are irrelevant again, both very useful and nice at 1 SS.

[Kalkris]

I could see us replacing Nothing's Free with a different thing, and simply removing a suit from the Feed My Frankenstein trigger.

 

One of my testers looked at Danse and Sleight and said it felt too clunky as read.

 

As mentioned before, Barreling Monkeys makes the foe take a horror duel before anything else after the charge.

 

Lola should keep the Haze, I think. Therefore, we'll lower the Horror (by how much is the subject of testing of course).

 

We could replace Showstopper with a different trigger that says, perhaps, "After dealing Severe damage, target gains the Paralyzed condition."?

 

Mercury's Headlong Charge needs to say "two 1AP" instead of "two 2AP".

 

Do we want to make the Mummerette's Stage Props action a 1AP action instead of a (0)?

 

I agree with Razhem on the Limited upgrade front. I think we should boost the starting stat on the Claws to 6 (but NOT 7, not with a positive flip) (with a    perhaps), and then retain the suits in the triggers. As for W2MN, we could lower the trigger's condition values to +2 perhaps. Also it's "Run Away With Me".

 

I did think that Unpaid Debts was a bit weaker than it should be. Let's test it with getting back 1Wd per stone in pool. That maxes out at 7 anyway, so...

 

Glad to see Take Center Stage being welcomed.

 

~Lil Kalki

 

PS - there is one Insig Minion - the Depleted - and zero Sig Peons (I think).

[Jeebus]

Old Cranky is a significant peon. No effect on this rule set, but neat to know.

[Kalkris]

Old Cranky is a significant peon. No effect on this rule set, but neat to know.

Shows how much i know about Gremlins, haha - Also, Cranky is a totem, so maybe that goes for my idea if we do that.

 

So, Da Git and i have been discussing where to go with Week 1's changes for Week 2, and a fair few things have been thought up which might be interesting. We will divulge by Monday (I think) lol

 

~Lil Kalki

[jtuarus]

Ya i was utterly mascerated by outcasts tonight the extra duels and mobility made no difference. The fly my prettys did move them quick but was dead real quick. Mercury is great. also all the wp duels against at least outcast are way to low and really doesnt effect the opponent at all before they can blow you off the table. Lola feels like it needs a defense trigger. Lizzy is great as is too. Mummers in a little ambivalent about they die easy.cooper has good abilities but 8 feel the haze mechanic is way to slow roll.

[Da Git]

Thanks for the playtest there JTaurus!  Glad you could get a game in!  We'll have the updates done soon, just discussing them with Kalkris.  Could you post your opponent's crew and a basic synopsis of the game?  That would be truly awesome! 

 

For the Haze do you think if we capped it at +3 and then upped the TN's by 1-2 it would help?

 

What did you do with Lizzy?  Did you just sit back & Lure or did you use her other tricks too?  (Basically I don't want Lure to be her only shtick, but a part of her arsenal)

[Kalkris]

Glad you got a game in, JTaurus! Welcome to the playtest! Hahaha

 

Also, what kind of defensive trigger do you think Lola needs? A movement-based one? A healing/prevention-based one? There are many different options we could take here haha

 

~Lil Kalki

[jtuarus]

Ya thats no problem the first game was a flank deployment reckoning game against the viktorias taelor 3 ronin student of conflict first turn i activate the monkey 1 to fly my prettys up the left s I de of the board to try to get them in position for scheme marker deployment my opponent moves a around vic of ash to hide behind a building as assassinate was a scheme along with murder protege, frame for murder, and protect territory. The second monkey went next flying the three another 8 to behind a building, student then went and gave taelor fast, took 3rd monkey and dropped marker dor 1st protect territory. (I may have over extended monkeys a bit doing this. As next turn taelor used fast to move up then charge and kill the monkeys leaving only 2 left (cause of black joker on dmg flip) i then used baritone lola moved once used DLaB to pull taelor and lola together didnt exactly hit the trigger so no attack the did a belly flop to no avail.this allowed vic of blood to charge one of the monkeys and kill the rest with a whirlwind trigger taking a big chunk out of lola as well.

I then activated lizzy and tried to lure vic of blood to her which succeded. so far my opponent has passed every wp duel with no problem.pulled her within mercurys charge range for his activation. He then dbl moved a ronnin. I did the same with mummerette on other side of flank he moved his last ronin. I then moved cooper in range for2 blow smoke and WiFG missed first smoke and WiFG but got second smoke dealing 1 +poison 3 moved second mummer near cooper for end of turn. Turn two saw me losing initiative and having blood pass her terror duel easy to take the rest of lolas health causing a whirlwind that hits mercury then attacks freddy him self taking him to one (sheesh that was close.) I activate mercury heal for 2 then attack vic of blood leveling her with the barbell (as i stated i feel mercury and lizzie are almost perfect just feel like he needs a little more synergy with the rest). This allowed taelor to charge and kill mercury. I moved a mummer over to a roninand stafe proped doing little weak damage andhitting trigg for manipulative. Which matterex not easily oassed duel to murderate mummer1. Thin lizzy then tried to lure taelor and failed so i moved her out of what i thought was danger. Nope a ronin came around and efeectivle one shotted it. So i am now left with just cooper and one mummer my opponent then moves in last ronin to slice last mummer and keep cooper in engagement tried to silk scarf failing then tried to disengage and got nailed. So he does vic of ashes and student moving student to taelor again for next turn assasinate. Lost initiative and was the murdered by taelor in 2 attacks both at severe dmg. The entire game my opponent never lost a sinple willpower duel as most times they were so low he only needed 5s or 6s to pass. I would live to see lola get a push defense trig to get him out of the flurries and charges. Cause even with hi def when he gets hit by beaters he wilts like lettuce under multiple attacks. He has no real attack mitigation other than terror duel which again was so low my opponet laughed it off. That was the first gamenplayed another against von schill and friekorps lets just say game went longer but no better hi eange made mince meet of the crew easy and with all of em at a avg wp of 6 or 7 the duels were agian laughable and i had no real way to deal with the range before i was shot off the board. It was squatters rights i took plant eveidence and arcanist general. I at least scored more than 3 that game thou as it was 10-6 but still waslossing models way to fast. It seems if a crew has average wp and a way to do movement puses range or other shenanigans it totally handicaps the entire crew.

[Kalkris]

Those games sound like they were quite a massacre for the crew. lol

 

Da Git and I are thinking of upping TNs to where by T3, everything is either at 13 or 14. Da Git also likes Squeeel! as Lola's potential Df trigger, although he thinks something Ability-wise should be removed if that is added. I also like Squeeel! but I think a 5th ability wouldn't push Lola over the top, especially considering the circumstances.

 

As for giving Mercury *something* to synergize more with the crew as a whole, what if we give him an aura that says "Models in [N] can't cheat fate during simple duels"? I feel like there's a way to keep that fluffy, and it is reasonable for an 8ss model, but what would we remove from Mercury for that?

 

Mercury can probably get away with a 4" aura like that, and not have to remove anything, honestly.

 

~Lil Kalki

[jtuarus]

I love the idea of squeel and the 4 inch aura is great not to strong but enough to make it a great synergy making it so that cooper and the rest can better manipulate. Aso when i was discussing with my opponent he agreed that most of wp duels should be about the level you and da git discussed kal cause that makes them terrifying in the later game where it is almost a nescesity to try and kill before turn 3 after that they are at almost crit mass. Which is where most crews need to be hitting their stride. Ive always taken it as turn 1 2 setup turn 3 4 execute turn 5 maybe six clean up. Have played against every faction and that seems to be the flow of my meta.

[Da Git]

Were there any abilities you found to have no point?

[jtuarus]

before actually committing to the squeal route id like to test out lola with the increased TNs that by itself may put Him in better waters. that means  most things that can effect him are having to do some pretty big card depletion to try  to attack or move. im thinking  a very rough idea at this point that maybe you could add another trigger on belly flop called belly bounce wihich pushes him 4" ignoring models and terrain but does no dmg replace killing joke with a defense trigger of after damaging preform a belly bounce trigger that way he has two ways to disengae if its not looking good. could also add it through an upgrade since he is a hench. like i said very rough idea at this point.

[Da Git]

At the moment, what I'm thinking is adding everything to the models, then seeing what we can trim if it's (likely) too much.  Squeal! will most definitely not be baked in anyways.

[jtuarus]

That is probly for the best ive held the design ideal of break it first then dial back to balance.