Which Masters do you take vs....X Faction

[Khyodee]

After reading through the Tier list of masters on the general discussion forums it got me wonder how other players view the guild matchups vs other factions based on the master. My local meta isn't balanced right now as the more experienced players who show up the most are ressers and the other factions tend to be newer players so those matchups can be taken with a grain of salt. The idea is tier 1 is good, tier 2 average, and tier 3 bad.

 

vs Guild

Tier 1: Perdita, Sonnia, Hoffman

Tier 2: Lucius, McCabe

Tier 3: Lady J, McMourning

 

vs Resurrectionists

Tier 1: Sonnia, Perdita, McCabe

Tier 2: Lucius, Lady J, McMourning

Tier 3: Hoffman

 

vs Arcanist

Tier 1: Hoffman, McCabe, Sonnia

Tier 2: McMourning, Perdita, Lucius, Lady J

 

vs Neverborn

Tier 1: McCabe, Sonnia, Perdita

Tier 2: Lucius, Hoffman, McMourning

Tier 3: Lady J

 

vs Outcasts

Tier 1: Perdita, McCabe

Tier 2: Sonnia, Lucius, McMourning

Tier 3: Hoffman, Lady J

 

vs Gremlins

Tier 1: Sonnia, Hoffman, Perdita

Tier 2: McCabe, Lucius, McMourning

Tier 3:  Lady J

 

vs Ten Thunders

Tier 1: Perdita, McCabe

Tier 2: Sonnia, Hoffman, Lucius, McMourning, Lady J

 

So what is your guys experience?

[Chumbalaya]

I think you're missing a lot of important information when forming these lists.  Strategy and Schemes are just as important, if not moreso, than your opponent's faction when determining which master to bring.  On top of that, factions are quite diverse, so what's good against, say, Nicodem, isn't going to be as effective against Seamus.

[admiralvorkraft]

I've found Lucius to be tier 1 against assassin style masters or willpower shenanigans (Seamus springs to mind) because he has no keystone models and comes kitted out to deal with his own horror duels. But I've found him to be tier 3 against masters that excel at mook hunting (Wong, damn you Wong!) because losing 2-3 minions in an early turn can really cripple him.

 

That being said, the only bad match-up for Sonnia is a pool full of movement schemes, and even then she can summon in a horde of Witchlings...

So I guess I agree with Chumbalaya's assessment.

[FortuneCook]

I've also got to agree with Chumbalaya.  While "Bad Things Happen" in each game, I'm not convinced that this extends to your pre-game master choice, or that any particular master is a bad idea to take against any opposing faction.  You'll certainly run into the odd individual master within a particular faction that might make your chosen master's life more difficult in one way or another, but the sheer variety of crews that can be thrown together by each faction means that rating each master's effectiveness against that faction as a whole is difficult.

[dgraz]

I will tell you THE best master to take against each of the different factions. 

 

 

Whichever damn one I feel like playing today.

 

 

I do not believe that it can so easily be broken down that you would be able to choose. All masters are viable choices.......and honestly you have a better chance winning with a crew that you know well. Sonnia may very well be "Tier 1" against a certain faction....but if I don't play her very often I'm still going to get beat.....whereas if Sonnia is only "Tier 2 or 3" against a certain faction but I play her all the time......smoke 'em if you got 'em boys.

 

My .02.

[admiralvorkraft]

Agreed.

[rancor709]

There are no tiers only zule, The steps between masters are very small and the inclusion of certain models in your list can also help against some faction based themes far more so then a specific master. Masters are all good there is no constance blaze for you WMHordes converts. And there is no haley2 either the difference between the top and the bottom is a mouse fart. 

[LunarSol]

That's true, but at the same time, its worth keeping in mind the really powerful/common things seen in other factions and what masters have solid answers to them.  Belle's are a good example that readily improve Sonnia's game vs Ressers though general tech like Sidir is also important to consider.  I think the pools are generally pretty large, but I think you can probably also name a couple of masters that aren't overly ideal against specific factions.

[urgol]

The answer that I get with Malifaux is, depends on terrain, strategy, schemes, personal mood, friendly game etc.. As already said strategies and schemes let other master shine more, but when you are not less familiar with the models and also the turn flow (movement, activation, ranges etc.), the outcome might not be as good as with another master you know by heart. On top of that, you never know what the other person will tailor into the list and which plans he/she has.

 

At the beginning I also looked for something like the list above, but gladly there are is no simple and patter X you can use against a specific fraction. It's quite a good thing, since it give you a long and steep learning curve, and will keep the game interesting for a long time.

[dgraz]

That's true, but at the same time, its worth keeping in mind the really powerful/common things seen in other factions and what masters have solid answers to them.  Belle's are a good example that readily improve Sonnia's game vs Ressers though general tech like Sidir is also important to consider.  I think the pools are generally pretty large, but I think you can probably also name a couple of masters that aren't overly ideal against specific factions.

Disagree. You have no way of knowing what you're going to be facing......Way back when the game first came out and each faction only had 3 or 4 masters you could do that. But now there's too many very different play-styles in each faction especially with the 10T cross-overs. You're much better off with what Urgol said above....look at the terrain and pick the master and crew you think can accomplish the strat/schemes.

 

Now, if you have a local meta, that's a little different.....as you get to know the people you're facing and what they have (which is why I switch up quite a bit).

[Khyodee]

I know playing to your strategy and scheme is always the best way to play the game, but in my experience I've seen some very lopsided matches with some masters vs certain factions and to be quite frank I think its a bit of a cop out to say just play to your strat and scheme. I've had games were that is exactly what I did, but because of bad match ups and flips I've had a few games were I was tabled by turn 3, leaving an opponent 2 rounds to score and deny most of the points.

 

For example, The guild has a problem against high armor other then some specific masters (McCabe, McMourning, Hoffman) so trying to play a Turf War against Arcanists is going to be a tougher game if you don't find a way around this problem. I'm not saying that you can't win with the others masters but the method is a bit less straight forward and takes more experience and skill (not to say this is a bad idea if you want to get better).

 

TLDR; My point being I agree with the general principle of playing to your strats and schemes, but I make posts like this to generate good discussions of matchups not the "play your strats and schemes answers". That answers helps nobody and generates no conversation other then the stupid debate of if that is a legit statement or not.

[admiralvorkraft]

Dakroll, maybe it's just my luck but if I kit up on anti-armor tech to deal with Arcanists they drop Marcus.

 

That being said, I almost always take a Guild Lawyer against Ressers or Neverborn because he's useful no matter what I'm up against and the + on willpower duels is amazing when it comes to mitigating the terrifying on everything. I think looking at what models you take to hedge your bets against certain factions might be a more productive approach than looking at master selection.

 

Just my two cents.

[Myyrä]

For example, The guild has a problem against high armor other then some specific masters (McCabe, McMourning, Hoffman) so trying to play a Turf War against Arcanists is going to be a tougher game if you don't find a way around this problem. I'm not saying that you can't win with the others masters but the method is a bit less straight forward and takes more experience and skill (not to say this is a bad idea if you want to get better).

Perdita can downright ignore armor and Lady Justice hits harder through armor than McCabe.

[dgraz]

 

 

For example, The guild has a problem against high armor other then some specific masters (McCabe, McMourning, Hoffman) so trying to play a Turf War against Arcanists is going to be a tougher game if you don't find a way around this problem. 

and then I drop Colette or Marcus or Kaeris on you and crush you on Schemes. Considering that really only Ramos, Raspy and Mei Feng care too much about armor, building an anti-armor list isn't going to help you against the rest of the faction. And no.......playing Strats and Schemes is not a cop out....it's how you win the game......trying to pre-plan a list just isn't effective in this game. I'd rather take a versatile crew that can handle several things and that's hard to do when you can only spend so many points....so you focus on how to win. I don't need anti-armor tech since the game isn't about killing in most cases....all I need to do is distract or shut-down high armor targets long enough to score my points.

[Khyodee]

and then I drop Colette or Marcus or Kaeris on you and rape you on Schemes. Considering that really only Ramos, Raspy and Mei Feng care too much about armor, building an anti-armor list isn't going to help you against the rest of the faction. And no.......playing Strats and Schemes is not a cop out....it's how you win the game......trying to pre-plan a list just isn't effective in this game. I'd rather take a versatile crew that can handle several things and that's hard to do when you can only spend so many points....so you focus on how to win. I don't need anti-armor tech since the game isn't about killing in most cases....all I need to do is distract or shut-down high armor targets long enough to score my points.

 

I think your missing my point a bit here. I'm don't build list that is geared to beat armored crews specifically, but rather I like to have ones with the parts in the crew to deal with such situations. My Hoffman crews often sport one or two spider swarms that pulse away scheme markers in addition to having ways to get around armor and run watchers with hydraulics and program directive for scheme running of my own.

 

That said I didn't start this to get into forums debates unless they prove to be productive ones.

[dgraz]

That said I didn't start this to get into forums debates unless they prove to be productive ones.

My apologies. I guess disagreeing with you isn't productive. I'll leave you to it then.

[Khyodee]

That being said, I almost always take a Guild Lawyer against Ressers or Neverborn because he's useful no matter what I'm up against and the + on willpower duels is amazing when it comes to mitigating the terrifying on everything. I think looking at what models you take to hedge your bets against certain factions might be a more productive approach than looking at master selection.

 

I agree that maybe a more productive approach is looking at things on a model basis instead of master since most crews can fix those holes. Ideas like including lawyers vs Ressers and Neverborn are the sort of thoughts I'm interested in hearing about.

 

Perdita can downright ignore armor and Lady Justice hits harder through armor than McCabe.

 

True, I had forgotten that Perdita ignores armor as well as incorporeal (which seems to be what I'm always using it for). Lady J does hit hard, but against a high wound model with armor she is probably going to waste more AP then I would like swinging into the armor.

[Myyrä]

Lady J does hit hard, but against a high wound model with armor she is probably going to waste more AP then I would like swinging into the armor.

Well, I have killed Joss several times in one activation using her. In my books that counts as being able to handle armored opponents about as well as anyone.

[Chumbalaya]

Unless you're playing in a group where you know everybody and what they have, building against particular masters is always a risk.  What happens when your bid for anti-armor runs up against Marcus's big sacks of wounds or Colette not caring and acing you on schemes?

 

It is important to take your opponent's faction into consideration when building your crew, but you really can't predict it just based on the sheer variety.  That's why it's generally more productive to build your crew based on what you do know: strategy, schemes and terrain.  If I'm playing Turf War with Breakthrough, Bodyguard, Deliver a Message and Power Ritual, maybe I'm taking Hoffman with a bunch of big beater constructs and healing to get Bodyguard and a Watcher or two running Breakthrough, Deliver a Message or Power Ritual.  If I'm playing against Arcanists I may consider anti-armor or anti-casting, if Ressers I may add more condition removal, etc.  I don't have to build my entire crew around the opposing faction, just maybe make a few adaptations based on it. 

 

Now, if you want to talk about what those adaptations might be, I think that's a much more productive avenue of discussion.

[Khyodee]

It is important to take your opponent's faction into consideration when building your crew, but you really can't predict it just based on the sheer variety.  That's why it's generally more productive to build your crew based on what you do know: strategy, schemes and terrain.  If I'm playing Turf War with Breakthrough, Bodyguard, Deliver a Message and Power Ritual, maybe I'm taking Hoffman with a bunch of big beater constructs and healing to get Bodyguard and a Watcher or two running Breakthrough, Deliver a Message or Power Ritual.  If I'm playing against Arcanists I may consider anti-armor or anti-casting, if Ressers I may add more condition removal, etc.  I don't have to build my entire crew around the opposing faction, just maybe make a few adaptations based on it. 

 

Now, if you want to talk about what those adaptations might be, I think that's a much more productive avenue of discussion.

 

 

I think there was a bit of a miscommunication on my part since that is what I'm getting at and not the idea of taking a specific master to try and counter a specific master. The idea being that some masters bring certain aspects that can help fight against common themes seen within that factions. For example. Perdita is strong vs Neverborn since many of them like to attack WP and she can buff her family to be +1 WP. No I'm not building my who crew against fighting WP and sure they can a crew that won't attack WP, but its a single point upgrade that is generally useful if not very strong against certain crews.

[urgol]

The general difference between Malifaux and WMhordes or 40k is that there list tailoring is allowed, the game is more balanced and missions are more complex. I started playing table tops with 40k, then switched to WMhordes and added Malifaux. Starting with the same mindset: checking forums for solid lists, the best master to play with, which models to buy next and hard counters for the other fractions or masters. Another thing is you can play each master in so many ways with so many different combination, which makes it hard to give a good answer. I would stick with your other post, where you try go assign masters to strategies and schemes, since this makes more sense. Also I would include something like modules that you take to make certain things happen. For example, Sonnia + death marshal + papa + reincarnation. Cisco + Diestro + shooting. Executioner with death marshal taxi lead by McCabe.

 

FYI, our meta is pretty small and I have a good idea what other people own, prefer to play and prefer not to play against. Also we are a group ot 4-8 people, so this makes everything more predictable. On top of that players have very different model pools, starting from 1 build to 7/7 masters.

 

Against our resser I prefer to play Sonnia at the moment, I got my second box of Stalkers and my idea is to go for reincarnation and papa with death marshal combo. Reconnoiter, Claim a Stake, Squatters Rights and maybe Turf War.

 

Against Neverborn, Perdita with Latigo gang, Turf War, Reckoning, reconnoiter. Lucius with Squatters rights. 

 

With Squatters Rights and reconnoiter I would pick Lucius with riflemen and a pathfinder. 

 

Against our Arcanist with Marcus I take Perdita.

[Chumbalaya]

Aura Ancestral is a great upgrade when facing Neverborn or Ressers, but will you bring Perdita in Reconnoiter or Stake a Claim?

 

I do think a list of good upgrades/combos against certain factions would be a nice resource.  Aura Ancestral vs Neverborn, anti-casting or armor ingnoring against Arcanists, AoE/mass killing vs Gremlins, etc.

[Adran]

 

Against our resser I prefer to play Sonnia at the moment, I got my second box of Stalkers and my idea is to go for reincarnation and papa with death marshal combo. Reconnoiter, Claim a Stake, Squatters Rights and maybe Turf War.

 Surely the buried Papa is largely useless against Ressurectionists? They normally have Hard to wound, so you'll still be a negative damage flips.

 

 

I'm going to say that I largely find this sort of exercise as not very effective, as the factions are too varied to really build to counter.

In a similar fashion, net lists are much less of a thing here, as its not so much what you have, but how you use it that generally matters during the game.  And how you use it requires board knowledge, Stratergy Knowledge, Scheme knowledge and opponents crew knowledge.

 

Saying " Take Area of effect against Gremlins" actually often doesn't work. Unless they are takign a Sommer Summoning list, or possible a Ulix Pigball list, they often don't clump that much, they can easily take a much more elite list these days, and they can also take models that naturallly prevent area of effect damage.

SO sometimes it is helpful, but otehr times you've got a list that will do very little.

[urgol]

@Adran, I played Nicodem twice, first time it worked wonders second time not that much. 

@Chumbalya, I would bring Perdita to any game

 

Competitive play has already ruined a couple of games for me, I see things a little bit different now. My advice might not be the best since our meta is very unique

[Dafty]

Surely the buried Papa is largely useless against Ressurectionists? They normally have Hard to wound, so you'll still be a negative damage flips.

Hard to wound is one thing me being can to your df4-5 is another. Burn those high cards. Cause I won't need to.

Also hard to wound or not. If I drop papa out of his box near your models. He is going to companion detonate and kill your h2w models.

If playing against kirai or spirit Molly that really don't have hard to wound papa is still viable. Shooting at toshio is generally not the best plan cause 2 damage is chumpy. But rest of the crew. Lose all your high cards then no summoning no saving other models to duels. Etc

So yes papa in a box still is effective to ressers. Pineboxing things like Izamu and other bitty things is the way to go.