I'm trying to be patient, I really am...

[zFiend]

Brewmaster anyone? 

[Rhellion]

You have to remember that the game is in the middle of not only an edition change but also the end of the pewter era and the begin of the plastic age. It's not the best time to get into the game, agreed. Still, I heard getting into Warhammer is way more expensive...

 

They aren't comparable games!!

 

One is a massive wargame for 100-200 models, the other is a skirmish game for 5-10 models.

[admiralvorkraft]

Here's where I'm at.

This is by far the best mini's game I've ever played, but at the time that I got into the game the only master that had been released in plastic that I was interested in was Sonnia Criid. I picked her crew up on eBay.

 

The only other purchase I've made is a copy of the TTB Multi-Pose Models because money absolutely IS a concern for me, at least until I graduate and get a real job (again). If you're interested in playing Colette and the Viks you could probably make good proxies for all the models you need in one copy of the female kit. The models may be more generic than the official release, but they still look damn good.

[paradoxstorm]

For the OP--if you are playing friendly games one word absolutely saves you:  Proxy.    There is something better about playing the real model, but I've grown rather attached to some of the proxies I have been using.

 

If you have an ebay account there is a new listing for a Viks crew + Colette crew + some other stuff.  I would appreciate it if you buy it before I get home from work and talk myself into buying two crews I already own.  (I really, really like those two crews and have a bit of an impulse control problem when it comes to them.)

 

Speaking of poor impulse control---I have a plastic Viks crew in the box and it will be at least 3 months before I get to it.  If you absolutely, positively can't wait for the new run to hit stores, pm me since I can wait.

 

As for the rest of it--I agree, it gets frustrating not being able to get models and I look forward to the day when Wyrd does have a much more predictable production schedule.

[Dirial]

They aren't comparable games!!

 

One is a massive wargame for 100-200 models, the other is a skirmish game for 5-10 models.

 

Of course I can compare games by the money I need to drop to get into them. Why not?

 

People playing Warhammer complaining about the need to drop 40 bucks and having 5 models they don't need immediately would be ridiculous. I don't get why it's a huge problem in Malifaux by comparison. (I realize that it can be a problem by itself.)

[bandages]

For the OP--if you are playing friendly games one word absolutely saves you:  Proxy.    

 

And here is where Wyrd should genuinely be worried.

 

This week I picked up an metal Collodi box set. The ME2 Collodi seems destined to have a Henchmen model called Vasillisa as part of the box set crew. Obviously this is a new model and as far as I could tell and there isn't a suitable Wyrd Proxy. Even if there is (Converted Coryphee perhaps?) you run into the trouble of discussing this with your opponent, especially if its a converted Wyrd model, or they might not be accepted by tournament organisers.

 

So I had to go and buy a Proxy which I thought was suitable from another modelling company.

Loss of revenue for Wyrd.

 

I am not the only person who has done this and, from what I can tell, Collodi is a popular master choice, so I presume this trend will carry on as well as the proxies required for other masters in M2E.

 

This is further compounded by the fact that the old metals are either gone from stockists or rapidly depleting.

There are many models which are simply not available and have excellent synergy with various crews in certain factions. As an example, the Stitched together from Neverborn. A host of current plastic crews would benefit from the Stitched together being part of their crew, yet without them being released players are resigned to making their own, converting Wyrd models, E-baying (A Coryphee pack just went for £46 on the UK ebay!!!) or using proxies from different companies.

 

I am not so naive to think that all of the M2E models could be released in one go, but players are in a buying 'Limbo' when it comes to these kind of models and there are many example at the moment.

[Malal]

Brewmaster anyone? 

 

Reset the Doom Clock!

[Omenbringer]

Just a few thoughts on this;

 

First, the defense that Wyrd is limiting models to crew box only in some benevolent effort to limit SKU's for local stores is getting really old. It doesn't hold up when you consider that since that was first used a few years ago the company has nearly doubled SKU's for niche accessory items like colored bases and fate decks.

 

Second, I can understand that the first few plastic crew boxes that contained new models for existing crews with a metal box might have been an "Oversight" but with the trend continuing it is getting really old. Wyrd is not doing any favors to the local stores they are espousing to help by further reducing the appeal of existing metal stocks. With out access to these models the metal crew boxes are just not marketable without a huge discount and then of course the purchaser is left to "figure out" how they are going to get the missing model for their crew. With some it isn't a huge issue as the model might not be necessarily required but there are plenty that are "lynch pin" models and necessary for the functioning of the crew (Vasilisa being a notable recent example).

 

Third, the expectation that it is a reasonable option for consumers to purchase an entire crew box for the one model they want and then attempt to sell the remnants on a secondary market is crap. The secondary market (where it exists) is primarily focused on the single models that everyone is trying to get from the crew boxes and not really interested in the chaff that they can already get separately if they want it (unless of course they are getting a ridiculously good deal).

 

In the last two years there have been many miss steps by the company, I am optimistic though, that eventually some of these may be addressed.

[enderwiggin]

I would actually be very, very happy to see Vasilisa sold separately and the resulting Collodi box set dropped in price as a result. Atm, I'm going to just convert a model from another range of models or try to sculpt my own based on the limited artwork we have for her so far.

 

With the older gamers who recognize the strengths of Skirmish-games it still becomes very difficult to justify a $50 purchase to new players over something like Warmachine where you spend the same amount on a starter, but have the option to expand your forces from there however you want since 99% of the rest of the jacks/models coems in blisters or boxes.

 

At the moment, what I'm seeing in our early-stages-of-revival group is buying old box sets at a discount and then updating with newer stuff if it's available, if not, then proxy is the name of the game.

[Dirial]

With the older gamers who recognize the strengths of Skirmish-games it still becomes very difficult to justify a $50 purchase to new players over something like Warmachine where you spend the same amount on a starter, but have the option to expand your forces from there however you want since 99% of the rest of the jacks/models coems in blisters or boxes.

 

Don't get me wrong, I played a lot of Warmachine. If you want to "expand your forces however you want" in Warmachine and don't want to only buy solos, you'll drop 30-40 bucks very quickly. I paid 65 Euro for a unit of Fennblades, and I cannot play the game only with that unit very well. In comparison, getting a second Master box seems like a steal.

[enderwiggin]

Somewhat skewed, but true. It is a steal, BUT, the games are fundamentally different with fairly static lists in WM.

 

Not putting basic units outside of master boxes, Ashigaru, for instance, can be rough on the wallet. It's paying for a fleet of damn good cars or buying your one dream car right from the get go. I see the appeals of both systems and honestly would like it if both were in the game. I just feel like the Henchmen (really the sticking points) could be better served as single blisters where their space in a box set could be filled with regularly available models instead. Getting Yan Lo just for his niece when you never wanted the others? Well that chunk of change is rough for a single model, this isn't GW scalping prices we want in a game.

 

Knowing what I know now, for example, I probably would never have bought Pandora in her box set form. I just don't use sorrows and her totem is lackluster to me. Everything else is great, but then I could also buy everything else for about half the cost and have better minions for cheaper.

[Dirial]

I get that. I really do. I still have to point out one somewhat contradictory argument you made.

 

Somewhat skewed, but true. It is a steal, BUT, the games are fundamentally different with fairly static lists in WM.

[...]

Getting Yan Lo just for his niece when you never wanted the others?

 

Fixed lists make it more desirable to only buy specific models. Just like you said, only buying very specific models isn't such a great thing in Malifaux in the first place. Just a minor nitpick.

 

Also

 

Not putting basic units outside of master boxes, Ashigaru, for instance, can be rough on the wallet.

 

Basic units are available outside the starter boxes. Ashigaru for example, are available on their own. (Or will at least be shortly.)

[enderwiggin]

I don't see it as a contradictory argument, if you favor a different master then that box set only comes down to "Will I use Ashigaru or Chiaki"? If they were separated you'd probably save $15-20ish bucks depending on the whom you get them from if they were available.

 

I also noted that Ashigaru would likely be available in their own box set, but I don't see that as having made my final edit/posted up there, so bad on me for not keeping that in. I'm still not convinced that you should add in anything other than their personal totem and basic units into the Masters' boxes in order to drum up sales. Make the box worth it regardless of what lists you would normally play and you'd see more sales, GW did that with Apocalypse and almost single-handedly saved the business at the time.

[zeeblee]

Personally I find the current model to be rather appealing when I factor in how expensive it would be to buy each and every piece separately.  However, it does bring a big disadvantage to people who only want to focus on one master.  For instance, if I wanted to play Sitched-heavy Dreamer I may want to pick up Vasilisa, but can only do so via a Collodi box (supposedly, since that box hasn't fully been announced yet).  Now, if Collodi did not interest me in any way, and I couldn't figure out a good use for his model or the Marionette models, then that purchase would feel rather cruddy. 

 

But if I were wanting to get competitive in the game and have a wide variety of Neverborn masters and models to field, then the crew box system is amazingly efficient.

 

In essence, the current system is great for competitive players, but potentially awful for casual ones.

[Omenbringer]

@ Enderwiggin

 

Atm, I'm going to just convert a model from another range of models or try to sculpt my own based on the limited artwork we have for her so far.

 

This is exactly my point. These options do nothing for Wyrd in terms of recouping the production capital of the Vasilisa mold. I'm sure their competition is enjoying the sales though.

[enderwiggin]

I hate to say it but it's a playing time thing too. If we have the rules and a reasonable amount of time to convert a proxy most of us likely will do just that. Yes, it's selfish to want all the options now, but we can't be handed awesome rules and expect teaser art to get us to not play those models in the game!

[Ramath]

Yeah, as I said in another thread, I'm not new to table-top gaming in general, just trying to get into Malifaux.  Proxy a model is something I'm already doing.

 

However, there is a very real difference between proxying a new unit without a model release or even proxying a model that is being updated without access to a discontinued model, and having to proxy a model that does exist but is locked behind a group box set.

 

Boxed sets are amazing to get started into the game!  But that's their purpose: getting started.  Wyrd has changed that from "getting started" to "only way to expand."  Very distinct difference.

 

And that is the source of my frustration.  By the way, don't confuse "frustration" with "table-flipping, nerd-ragging, world-burning anger."  I've already set up my first master list and established my first shopping list to get into the game, as has my wife.  Some of my models have been proxyed with no plans to ever change them back to official models.

 

It's sad that Wyrd has lost business from me, when I was eager to shower them in cash, because they can't handle a proper product selection.

 

If models being inaccessible outside of Master boxes is a deal breaker for you, I wouldn't bother playing Malifaux. This is clearly a design choice by Wyrd to make it easier on game stores to stock product without overwhelming the stores. They've stated that this is a strategic choice they've made and it is unlikely to change any time soon, especially with all the other models to come out. 

 

You know, back in art school we had a saying:

 

"Intention does not justify bad art."

 

Just because they intend to lock half their stock behind boxed sets, doesn't make it a good idea.  It doesn't justify poor product selection.  They created a game around mix'n'match'ing your master units, but turn around and don't make certain units available to other masters.

 

That's called a contradiction.  Contradictions aren't conducive to good business.

[Bengt]

Boxed sets are amazing to get started into the game!  But that's their purpose: getting started.  Wyrd has changed that from "getting started" to "only way to expand."  Very distinct difference.

Whatever gave you that idea? The crew boxes are not starter sets and have never been. They are a Master and a few models that are essential/thematic/good with them. They are not balanced against each other and while most sit in the 25-35 SS range it varies greatly between the outliers (Ramos and Kirai). Wyrd has revealed plans to put out a start set later this year, and it seems be two opposing henchman lead crews in one box.

[J_D]

You have to look at the difference between Malifaux and standard games. You don't go in to a game of Malifaux going "this is the exact list I am going to play" except in tournaments (when you can still make multiple lists), you go 'first let me see what I have to do, and then I will make a list" and that's where having a larger selection comes in handy. Sure you might not want to use Yan right now, but when you come to play a game that needs a different approach than Kirai can give you then he could be useful.

 

That's why my Neverborn started as me buying every crew box available, so I have a large selection of models to play games with.

[Dirial]

 

It's sad that Wyrd has lost business from me, when I was eager to shower them in cash, because they can't handle a proper product selection.

Your opinion! I completely disagree.

[MasterDisaster]

  I've already set up my first master list and established my first shopping list to get into the game, as has my wife.  

 

Dude! I'd just be happy if I could get my Mrs to play on a regular basis! Consider yourself lucky! My Fiancee is too busy working or day dreaming about Unicorns or some rubbish to play Malifaux. Although the occasional round of Malishots with her is always a good laugh 

[Insidiously Mad]

 

You know, back in art school we had a saying:

 

"Intention does not justify bad art."

 

Just because they intend to lock half their stock behind boxed sets, doesn't make it a good idea.  It doesn't justify poor product selection.  They created a game around mix'n'match'ing your master units, but turn around and don't make certain units available to other masters.

 

That's called a contradiction.  Contradictions aren't conducive to good business.

 

You are looking at this from a gaming standpoint. The reason they have decided to go this way is practical. They are a small company that does not have the storage capability to have all the models boxed separately (which they have stated on multiple occasions). Also, many LGS' struggle with space for all the games they want to stock as well, thus Wyrd is purposely trying to save on storage space both on their side and the retail side. 

I would love it if I could buy models separately as well, I also find it frustrating, I just don't think it is going to change so I see no purpose in complaining about it. One way I think they may move around this issue from the side is more TTB style kits that you can use to build your own wyrd-legal proxies. Right now they are good for guild/outcasts but could easily do a TT style sprue as well. 

 

Also isn't all art subjective? I'm not sure there is a thing as objectively bad art. Complete side note, unrelated to wyrd.. 

[zFiend]

Dude! I'd just be happy if I could get my Mrs to play on a regular basis! Consider yourself lucky! My Fiancee is too busy working or day dreaming about Unicorns or some rubbish to play Malifaux. Although the occasional round of Malishots with her is always a good laugh

Damn unicorns.

[Joel]

OH NO!!! Wyrd want us to actually pay money for crew boxes?!?!?! what sort of rubbish is this??  How dare they be allowed to make a profit at all the capitalist swine!!  Also, such a huge company employing many thousands of people should instantly have the cash on hand, and the factory space, to instantly change all metal models into new plastic ones - and those artists should be able to get those models drawn in a few minutes each - I bet they are just sunning themselves on a beach somewhere instead of working for a living.

 

I should have every model I want, in plastic, for free, right now!!!!

 

/sarcasm

[zFiend]

OH NO!!! Wyrd want us to actually pay money for crew boxes?!?!?! what sort of rubbish is this?? How dare they be allowed to make a profit at all the capitalist swine!! Also, such a huge company employing many thousands of people should instantly have the cash on hand, and the factory space, to instantly change all metal models into new plastic ones - and those artists should be able to get those models drawn in a few minutes each - I bet they are just sunning themselves on a beach somewhere instead of working for a living.

I should have every model I want, in plastic, for free, right now!!!!

/sarcasm

I agreed with you 100% til the sarcasm part came along.