Misaki and her soulstone cache

[chris_havoc]

Super useful

[zFiend]

Super useful

Hahahaha. Sorry.

Yeah, still I believe that it is a cost not a use. Thus it doesn't matter whether the model is a Henchman or master.

[Myyrä]

Yeah, still I believe that it is a cost not a use. Thus it doesn't matter whether the model is a Henchman or master.

I'm also under the impression that this is the general consensus. Also the rule book doesn't really limit model's ability to discard soulstones in any way. It just speaks of using soulstones.

[chris_havoc]

Yeah but by that same token it's pretty particular on what a model can or can't do so it not saying a model can't use/discard Soulstones does not mean it can. Rules, by their nature, are semantic so that p. 55 argument with use rather than Use Soulstones would mean that discarding is a use of Soulstones. But then it does say particular rules override the main rulebook which is a pretty good argument for it. Also, the Trigger, for Assassinate at least, says unless it discards cards/ss not that it may do either. Needs a ruling otherwise it's moot. Fortunately, the community here is small so consensus is easy enough to get until there is a ruling. Thanks again for bringing it to my attention. I wonder if posting a topic with a list of issues that need to be errata/faq'd would be a good idea. So that moderators/rule makers have less chance of missing these things.

[Myyrä]

Sue has a trigger:

The Man Comes Around: After succeeding against target Totem or Peon, the target is killed unless it discards two Soulstones.

I think this is a pretty strong indication that peons can discard soulstones.

[MasterDisaster]

Sue has a trigger:

The Man Comes Around: After succeeding against target Totem or Peon, the target is killed unless it discards two Soulstones.

I think this is a pretty strong indication that peons can discard soulstones.

 

Exactly this, the only totem, I can think of that can actively use / spend SS is The Hungering Darkness as it is also a Henchman. Other peons and totems lack this ability but Sue's trigger allows them to discard SS to save themselves. Seems fairly clear cut to me

[chris_havoc]

Ah ok. That is a good piece of information that definitely implies that you are right. Then maybe they need to clarify the difference between using Soulstones as a cost/discard and using Soulstones for clarity's sake will mean not having to release a bunch of updated cards too.

[Myyrä]

Ah ok. That is a good piece of information that definitely implies that you are right. Then maybe they need to clarify the difference between using Soulstones as a cost/discard and using Soulstones for clarity's sake will mean not having to release a bunch of updated cards too.

I agree that it hasn't really been stated that clearly in the rules that discarding is not using, or more accurately, it hasn't been said at all. It should also be noted however that the ways to use soulstones are listed in the rulebook, and discarding soulstones is not listed there. The rulebook doesn't really specifically give permission to any model to discard soulstones. The permission is only given by the abilities that require it.

[chris_havoc]

Agreed, but if we are being semantic p. 55 equates 'use Soulstones' to Use Soulstone and discarding them is definitely an act of using Soulstones (but not one in the parameters listed). So either the Triggers need to include a 'may discard ss' in the Triggers. Or an errata of that section of the book. Or just clarify in an FAQ what is the right way to go about things. But since having Sue's Trigger pointed out to me it's hard to deny that RAI were to bar model's without Use Soulstones from discarding them even if you could argue otherwise with RAW.

[MasterDisaster]

Ah ok. That is a good piece of information that definitely implies that you are right. Then maybe they need to clarify the difference between using Soulstones as a cost/discard and using Soulstones for clarity's sake will mean not having to release a bunch of updated cards too.

 

I agree some clarification on the matter would be great just so we can be 100% sure on the matter. Sue's Trigger sort of makes it clear in my mind though. 

[Dirial]

Agreed, but if we are being semantic p. 55 equates 'use Soulstones' to Use Soulstone and discarding them is definitely an act of using Soulstones (but not one in the parameters listed). So either the Triggers need to include a 'may discard ss' in the Triggers. Or an errata of that section of the book. Or just clarify in an FAQ what is the right way to go about things. But since having Sue's Trigger pointed out to me it's hard to deny that RAI were to bar model's without Use Soulstones from discarding them even if you could argue otherwise with RAW.

 

For me this rule was a clear case: Henchmen and Master can use SS to do the following, and then a list. Some other models may use SS like Henchmen or Masters. As there is no "Use Soulstone" rule like in M1.5, all other uses of SS wouldn't be restricted to Masters or Henchmen.

Your points are technically valid, but (and don't get this wrong) overly semantic. By overly semantic I mean that we know from Justin's blog that Wyrd didn't write the rules to be semantically waterproof.

[chris_havoc]

 

Your points are technically valid, but (and don't get this wrong) overly semantic. By overly semantic I mean that we know from Justin's blog that Wyrd didn't write the rules to be semantically waterproof.

 

Yeah I understand that but I assume that was meant in the sense that the rules don't need to stand up 100% semantically but this issue has caused confusion for more than just me if there is an entire thread about it so clarity would help.

[Pyrflamme]

I can't leave you all alone with a topic!

 

But seriously, I got in my first game with Misaki last night, and opted to go with a cache of four, in a 50SS game. I ended up running out just as the game ended in a tie, so I couldn't quite be sure how her passive plays out. Four feels good, though.

[katadder]

used misaki with her base 2 and ran out fairly early, the extra defense really helped her out although she never got to kill anyone outright (but did get perdita & francisco with multiple thunders).

still not sure, she did die eventually so the damage resist would have been nice but the + on defense could be said to have saved her as much if not more.

[MasterDisaster]

used misaki with her base 2 and ran out fairly early, the extra defense really helped her out although she never got to kill anyone outright (but did get perdita & francisco with multiple thunders).

still not sure, she did die eventually so the damage resist would have been nice but the + on defense could be said to have saved her as much if not more.

 

Yeah those  to Df duels sure are handy but when you use a SS to the same effect you get  Df flips for you and  to the enemies Dmg. You can also spend them for Dmg Prevention, Extra Stuits, Attack Flips etc. Versatility is key and having those extra stones isn't hindering Misaki because if she wants the  Df flips she can just SS for them, she never has to go without   Df flips..... ever. Use SS liberally and once you've run out you get Risky Ventures. 

[katadder]

true, but the SS can be spent elsewhere if not buying any extras as well depending on what you have already. 

[MasterDisaster]

I see what you mean but I never see the justification in blowing all 50ss on the crew and running with pure cache (unless you play Lynch and even then it's iffy). Misaki isn't particularly tough and some extra stones to keep her alive that little bit longer definitely go a long way. I've never lost to anybody who spent all 50ss on the crew and upgrades, once those SS are out and I've still got 4-5 in my pool I can really push hard and put some pressure on the opponent only to laugh when they reach for a SS and find they have screwed themselves over by taking that extra couple of upgrades or minion. In my experience having soulstones and not needing them is better than needing them and not having them. One of the most important aspects of Malifaux is resource management, this means AP, SS and Cards. If you don't manage all 3 effectively your opponent can capitalize on one of those aspects and kick your teeth in. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion.

[rb_man]

Even more so if you have a Henchman that is stone thirsty like Kang or even Ototo in some games. But soulstones are too valuable to bring like 5. They have such a huge impact on the game and in are no way worth giving out on to get to DF and one more Tengu or an upgrade or 2. 

[Kadeton]

I've never lost to anybody who spent all 50ss on the crew and upgrades, once those SS are out and I've still got 4-5 in my pool I can really push hard and put some pressure on the opponent only to laugh when they reach for a SS and find they have screwed themselves over by taking that extra couple of upgrades or minion. In my experience having soulstones and not needing them is better than needing them and not having them. One of the most important aspects of Malifaux is resource management, this means AP, SS and Cards. If you don't manage all 3 effectively your opponent can capitalize on one of those aspects and kick your teeth in. It's just not worth the risk in my opinion.

 

Just remember to keep in mind that remaining activations and models in play are also resources that must be managed effectively to win. If you have fewer or weaker models than your opponent due to your large cache, they can just as easily apply pressure to you regardless of your stones in hand. Most of your crew can't take advantage of your extra stones, and Masters don't win games alone.

 

Keep enough stones to allow you to feel comfortable, but bring enough stuff to do what you need to. It's about finding a balance.

[MasterDisaster]

Just remember to keep in mind that remaining activations and models in play are also resources that must be managed effectively to win. If you have fewer or weaker models than your opponent due to your large cache, they can just as easily apply pressure to you regardless of your stones in hand. Most of your crew can't take advantage of your extra stones, and Masters don't win games alone.

 

Keep enough stones to allow you to feel comfortable, but bring enough stuff to do what you need to. It's about finding a balance.

 

Yeah that's true it's a careful balancing act. I'd feel comfortable spending 47ss with Misaki. That's more than enough to grab all the tools and toys require for most games then having those extra 3ss for a pool of 5. That's what I usually aim for because it gives me plenty of flexibility without giving up on too much in any one area, spending any more than that makes me nervous. She is not a tank in any way, shape or form and will crumble if given some attention. Of course these sorts of discussions are always down to personal preference and opinion. I prefer to have them extra stones, Misaki will always find a use for a spare soulstone or two. 

[Kadeton]

She is not a tank in any way, shape or form and will crumble if given some attention.

 

Too right. My worst Misaki experience was playing her as Outcast against a Resser Tara. I moved her up pretty cautiously on a flank, thinking she was hard enough to handle herself - nope! Killjoy'd to death before the end of Turn 1.

 

Sadly, more stones would have done absolutely nothing in that situation. But I heartily concur with the sentiment that Misaki is not a tank.

 

5 stones is generally about where I feel comfortable, unless I'm not particularly concerned for my Master's health (Leveticus, Hamelin etc).

[Argentbadger]

Moving a bit away from the case of Misaki specifically, but I don't feel that there is any need to keep back stones with Ten Thunders masters.  Playing Mei Feng, Lynch, McCabe and Yan Lo I almost never take more than the cache plus maybe 1 extra stone (yes this does mean that I often play Lynch with single stone).  As Kadeton points out, the balance of what you take carries through to the resources you have for the rest of the game.  I find that I have more success with the extra AP on the table.

[EnternalVoid]

I really am the reverse, I generally take larger pools even with masters like Lynch and McCabe.  I like having at least 5ss for McCabe so I can buy those suits I need for Blach Flash and Cast Off, for him I generally uses SS for suits and cards as he really relies on both of those sometimes.  For Lynch I generally go no less than 5ss for the Hungering Darkness so I can do damage prevention when I need it and so I can by Rams HD's attack and Lynch's.

 

Now it might because my deck is out to get me alot of the time as it always seems to favor suits I don't need.  So I often have to use SS for cards or suits for certain masters.  I often play with enough models on the table anyway that the extra 1-2ss that it might entail is not another model but would have merely been an improvement to an existing one.

[kmdl1066]

As zFiend states they aren't using the soul stones for their abilities such as damage prevention etc, it is paying a cost for an enemy ability. The cost is pay 2ss / cards or be killed outright. This particular trigger can only occur if the attack it triggers from deals damage. The damage has been dealt and now you must pay 2 cards or soul stones to prevent the triggers effect. 

 

With that in mind they can drop 2 SS from their crew's pool to prevent death even if they can't normally use them like Masters or Henchmen

 

What trigger is this and how do you get it?  As a totally new player this seems like a useful thing to have. 

[MasterDisaster]

What trigger is this and how do you get it?  As a totally new player this seems like a useful thing to have. 

 

"Assassination" on Misaki's (1) Bisento Attack Action. Similar ones are "Headshot" Trigger on Nino's Gun and the "Decapitate" Trigger on Howard Langston & The Executioners melee attacks. There's a few of them around but they all tend to have the same cost in common. Discard 2 cards or 2ss or be killed instantly. It's pretty effective for draining peoples Cards or SS and it dishout out damage before the Trigger's effects kick in so really it's always a good idea to force this difficult decision on people if you can.