Misaki and her soulstone cache

[Pyrflamme]

I'm playing in a newbie league with Ten Thunders as my declared faction, and I'm currently painting The Thunder box for use. My question is, as Ten Thunders, given the bonus Misaki has for zeroing out on Soulstones, how many Soulstones do you usually take in her cache to start a game? Obviously soulstones confer benefits beyond what she gains from the passive ability, and any given TT henchman likes having Soulstone access, but less soulstones spent on cache is more available for hiring models or buying upgrades. I suppose one must also factor in the prospect of taking the Pilfer upgrade.

 

I'm mostly interested in TT, but I also welcome comments on soulstone cache when taking Misaki as an Outcast.

[zFiend]

I played a game last night with a cache of 3. Way too low for my liking and probably won't do that again anytime soon. 

[MasterDisaster]

I tend to take Misaki with 4 at a minimum, regardless of Faction. More often though 5ss or 6ss is where I start and I burn through them fairly hard. I often aim to run out towards the end of turn 3 or beginning or turn 4. The benefits of having SS for the entire crew greatly outweigh Misaki's Risky Ventures bonus. It's not something you should aspire to activate but rather take advantage of when it does become available. Damage prevention, extra cards or suits and the usual other SS uses are way more useful almost every time. Also Pilfer never even enters my mind when hiring a Misaki crew. There are better upgrades to focus on. If Misaki runs out of SS then great, I'll use Risky Ventures. I wont then try to get some SS back. I just go on a murdering rampage instead 

[Arli]

I'm the opposite. I start with only her base cache in most cases. I would rather have the additional model over the extra SS. I burn them up as fast as I can too.

[rb_man]

For me what you get out of Risky Ventures does not outweigh what you get from having stones. Stones do way too much for you. The damage reduction, adding more cards to your hand, refliping for clutch initiative, or the adding a  or a suit. Is way too vital to lock yourself into a box with. What I think Risky Ventures does do is give you a huge advantage when you both have no stones. But I only think this way because I feel like the + you get to MI is not that great do to you still needing a highish crow to get the assassinate trigger off. Since most people will try to stop it happening really hard. I think where Risky Ventures is best is when you have tempo. You have more cards in hard then the other player and they have little to no stones.

[Pyrflamme]

Lot of good advice here! I suspect I'll try starting with a good stash of soulstones and leaving the passive as a bonus for later on.

[EnternalVoid]

I personally tend to have 6ss in my pool with her.  Generally it is for two things, damage pervention flips and extra cards.  Misaki is not so hard to hit that she will not be hit if they give the effort and she is not so tough that she will be able to weather continious efforts.  I find that having that many stones for damage prevention and cards prolongs her life enough to let her try and get the most out of her combat abilities or also lets me cover the henchman I might take with her.  Having one more model generally has not been enough of a insentive for me.

 

Risky ventures has been at least for me for those times where due to them really wanting Misaki *or a henchman I have* dead they burned through my pool and then it triggers.  Generally my goal is to have completed what ever I needed with Misaki by then and any extra mileage is just icing on the cake.

[zFiend]

Unless you flip 12, 11 and 13 of crows consecutively with Misaki on attack flips. Happened once. It was amazing and not beginner friendly at all.

[MasterDisaster]

Unless you flip 12, 11 and 13 of crows consecutively with Misaki on attack flips. Happened once. It was amazing and not beginner friendly at all.

 

It's not often this will happen so it's not really worrying about too much. It's beautiful when it does happen though. 

[Inquisitor Wall]

I usually go with a cashe of 4-5 but that is mainly due to playing with 1-2 henchmen as well. I plan and hold high crows through the first couple of turns planning on the assassinate trigger on the crucial turns 3-4. By that point ruining a players hand and/or draining their stones is something they typically have not been planning on and as I tend to activate her early in the turn, I love forcing my opponent to lose 6 cards/SS to save a master or other important model.

[chris_havoc]

It depends I've been running her on just her Cache lately to great effect. The biggest benefit of Risky Ventures is positives to Df flips. It means with Misdirection you are hitting a Mask 50% of the time based on normal odds and your odds increase with the conrol hand. It means burning through your opponents hand like crazy especially when you hit a Crow. Also, with your last Soulstone you can burn it for a Crow and because of Risky Ventures you get a double Crow for you action. You can even spend two if you want an extra positive. That being said I've used her to great effect with a bigger pool too. Ototo likes his Soulstones to manage just how much damage he takes. Misaki is also less of a lose cannon and more of a sniper rifle with Soulstones. Problem being that you need cards to get Assassinate off but gives you more of a buffer from damage too as has been said and allows you to burn for masks as and when you need them rather than relying on flips. Ultimately, I think it depends on what you are running. A crew without Henchmen or at least Henchmen who don't need Soulstones will do well with Misaki's low cache but the opposite is true for crews with Henchmen that need or like using Soustones.

[Vanthor]

I've tended towards 4 but, on occasion, will take a Ronin and go with just her cache to give me the freedom to choose

[MasterDisaster]

It depends I've been running her on just her Cache lately to great effect. The biggest benefit of Risky Ventures is positives to Df flips. It means with Misdirection you are hitting a Mask 50% of the time based on normal odds and your odds increase with the conrol hand. 

 

The benefits of spending a stone for Defensive purposes still outweigh this. I'd rather have  Df flips and  enemy damage flips than just the benefits of Risky Ventures. And this can be done multiple times. It's also worth having those extra stones in case somebody like Langston rocks up with his own decapitate trigger. Misaki will either be a goner or have her control hand totally crippled by constantly discarding cards to avid instant death. Additionally with more SS you can just SS for the   to get Misdirection. I still don't think it's every worth aiming to get Risky Ventures active ASAP. It's the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. 

[chris_havoc]

That being said I've used her to great effect with a bigger pool too. Ototo likes his Soulstones to manage just how much damage he takes. Misaki is also less of a lose cannon and more of a sniper rifle with Soulstones. Problem being that you need cards to get Assassinate off but gives you more of a buffer from damage too as has been said and allows you to burn for masks as and when you need them rather than relying on flips.

I'd rather have+fate Df flips and enemy damage flips than just the benefits of Risky Ventures. And this can be done multiple times.

As you've said, it's a matter of opinion. Soulstones for defense are better, no doubt, but an extra model on the board is also very good. The choice is investing a lot of points in the master by having a large pool and upgrades or opt for upgrades and let the rest of the crew throw their weight around too. I'm not arguing that having Soulstones never works, it does, well, but so does having a small ss pool. Misaki (individually) is very good with both and better with Soulstones but spending 50 rather than 45ss on other models means having another 10T Brother or something of approximate value (Tengu) running around doing objectives. Misaki will still do what she does well especially if you have Crows in hand.

Just to clarify, I never meant to imply that activating Risky Ventures ASAP was the way to go. Obviously you need to time when you burn your SS for the auto-Decapitate. Doing it while the opponent has a full hand is practically useless but if you activate Misaki later in the turn when cards are low she can take it out quick. Especially with Enforcers who are unabe to use Soulstones to prevent death. That being said, you can always use your 2ss Cache for defense too. In terms of Langston, everyone who faces him is on high-alert but unless you are very badly out-activated (a distinct possibility against Ramos) you should be able to avoid him. What else can you do when facing a model like Langston but accept that he will pose a threat? There is a good chance he hits his auto-kill if he is getting positives from Ramos but the odds are as good that you will hit Masks for Misdirection or Crows for Decapitate if you are Stalking him so does the opponent risk Langston or not? The choice is harder for him, he costs 11ss, 12 with Imbued Energies, Misaki costs 4SS with Stalking Bisento, Misdirection, and Hidden Agenda (for flavour) and poses as big a threat if not more when you throw her into a group of enemies.

I just want to add that I'm not sure that you need that high a Crow to justify going for Decapitate. Obviously if you're burning SS for the second Crow you're going to want some surety but the following logic still works. Any Crow 8 or above (granted still fairly high) will put pressure on your opponent to cheat in higher cards and cards of 9 and above are significant cards, for summoning masters especially. Playing a Crow of that value means either eating through a higher card to prevent the attack, burning an ss to attemppt to prevent the damage, or getting rid of two cards/ss. Any of which puts your opponent in a weaker position for following attacks and activations. Misaki also has 4 attacks with Stalking Bisento which means she has actions to burn, you won't hit a Crow on every flip but once or twice is good odds (and you may be holding) and your opponent has to make the decision between discarding cards to prevent a model dying, beating the card, or letting the model die to keep cards in hand for Misdirection. She may not stay around the whole game but she will cut a very big chunk out of your opponent's crew before she goes down.

*EDIT* Sorry quotes never work for me... I have to use a proxy to access the forums because of the way the South African IP Adresses are bundled. I hope it makes sense.

[MasterDisaster]

Just to clarify, I never meant to imply that activating Risky Ventures ASAP was the way to go. Obviously you need to time when you burn your SS for the auto-Decapitate. Doing it while the opponent has a full hand is practically useless but if you activate Misaki later in the turn when cards are low she can take it out quick. Especially with Enforcers who are unabe to use Soulstones to prevent death. 

 

Just a quick note, I've been lead to believe (only recently) that any model can discard SS to save themselves from death, not just Masters and Henchman. I always thought it was only SS users who could do this but this appears not to be the case. There was a thread about this a while ago but I can't for the life of me find it now. If I can i'll link you to it

[zFiend]

Yeah it's a cost not linked to the ability to use soulstones.

[rb_man]

Just a quick note, I've been lead to believe (only recently) that any model can discard SS to save themselves from death, not just Masters and Henchman. I always thought it was only SS users who could do this but this appears not to be the case. There was a thread about this a while ago but I can't for the life of me find it now. If I can i'll link you to it

 

Yeah it's a cost not linked to the ability to use soulstones.

 

How does this work since in the rule book on page 47 it says only henchmen and Masters can use soul stones to prevent damage.

[zFiend]

How does this work since in the rule book on page 47 it says only henchmen and Masters can use soul stones to prevent damage.

It's not damage prevention. It's a cost to keep your model alive.

[MasterDisaster]

As zFiend states they aren't using the soul stones for their abilities such as damage prevention etc, it is paying a cost for an enemy ability. The cost is pay 2ss / cards or be killed outright. This particular trigger can only occur if the attack it triggers from deals damage. The damage has been dealt and now you must pay 2 cards or soul stones to prevent the triggers effect. 

 

With that in mind they can drop 2 SS from their crew's pool to prevent death even if they can't normally use them like Masters or Henchmen

[zFiend]

As zFiend states they aren't using the soul stones for their abilities such as damage prevention etc, it is paying a cost for an enemy ability. The cost is pay 2ss / cards or be killed outright. This particular trigger can only occur if the attack it triggers from deals damage. The damage has been dealt and now you must pay 2 cards or soul stones to prevent the triggers effect.

With that in mind they can drop 2 SS from their crew's pool to prevent death even if they can't normally use them like Masters or Henchmen

Well you just said better. damn mobile.

[MasterDisaster]

Yup, nobody can understand your filthmongery ramblings anyway, it requires a sensible mind to properly convey these sorts of things *nods* 

[chris_havoc]

My gaming group checked up on that wording too I asked a neutral player to check the wording... given that p. 55 of the Rulebook pretty clearly states that, unless otherwise stated, only Masters and Henchmen may use Soulstones we decided that an Enforcer couldn't spend Soulstones. The Trigger also says that the target must discard the cards or Soulstones not the player. I think I know where the confusion comes in though because it's not explicitly listed as Use Soulstone. Then I would argue again that p. 55 mentions the use of Soulstones in small letters in reference to models being able to 'use Soulstones' rather than 'Use Soulstone' which implies being able to use Soulstones is implicit to the Use Soulstone ability so the argument can swing back that way. But there is enough doubt there to warrant an official ruling but until then, to my eyes at least, both RAW and RAI are that Enforcer models may not pay the Soulstone cost.

Thank you for pointing this out though. If you could link the thread it was brought up in I would be very grateful, or maybe which forum the thread was in? I'd like to see the other arguments so I can let my gaming group know both sides and direct them to it.

[rb_man]

As zFiend states they aren't using the soul stones for their abilities such as damage prevention etc, it is paying a cost for an enemy ability. The cost is pay 2ss / cards or be killed outright. This particular trigger can only occur if the attack it triggers from deals damage. The damage has been dealt and now you must pay 2 cards or soul stones to prevent the triggers effect. 

 

With that in mind they can drop 2 SS from their crew's pool to prevent death even if they can't normally use them like Masters or Henchmen

 

 

Oh I knew that already . I thought it was some crazy like new meta just found in the rules thing. I out thought my self. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[zFiend]

Yup, nobody can understand your filthmongery ramblings anyway, it requires a sensible mind to properly convey these sorts of things *nods*

Haha, no need for enemies with friends like you.

[MasterDisaster]

Haha, no need for enemies with friends like you.

 

Amen to that!