zero wounds, removed from play and witchling stalkers

[wopr1986]

I'm confused as to when exactly a model is removed. There may be a mistake on pull my finger for sonnia too.. so as I'm sure you've guessed by now this is too do with summoning stalkers.

On PMF (tactics and tips section) it says sonnias burning trigger on flameburst can let you use violation of magic to summon a stalker but the trigger states that after damaging all models gain burning +1. So is the enemy model damaged to 0 wounds but still in play then burning applies then it would be removed?

Same for witchling stalkers "all models damaged by this model gain the burning +1 condition so if I hit for lethal is the model still in play at 0 wounds then gets burning then is removed?

We had a game on Tuesday where this came up and I just said it doesn't work that way for the sake of time (I was sonnia so it was to my detriment) but some clarity would be sweet.

[Adran]

I don't have the rule book to hand (and its already been spotted once today...), but I believe general timing on page 36(?) talks about abilities and triggers that occur "after damaging". And these will happen before models are removed from play.So the model damaged by a stalker (or Sonnia with her trigger) will be reduced to 0, but before they are removed from play, the "after damaging" addition of Burning will occur. SO when they are removed, they are on fire, and can be turned into stalkers.

[sharpobjects]

So the model damaged by a stalker (or Sonnia with her trigger) will be reduced to 0, but before they are removed from play, the "after damaging" addition of Burning will occur. SO when they are removed, they are on fire, and can be turned into stalkers.

 

 

 

Correct

[Ludvig]

Unfortunately for us Sonnia players the ability does not trigger on "removed from play" but "reduced to zero wounds" which happens before the burning is applied so no stalkers unless they were burning before the attack.

[Dirial]

Unfortunately for us Sonnia players the ability does not trigger on "removed from play" but "reduced to zero wounds" which happens before the burning is applied so no stalkers unless they were burning before the attack.

 

Debatable. The spending of ressources and summoning of the Stalker happens before the model is removed.

[Myyrä]

No one knows for sure how the timing is supposed to work. If all we have got to go by is the rule book, after reduced to 0 wounds would happen during step 5, which would make it happen before after damaging triggers. Of course there are also some people who think that killing a target makes after damaging triggers be resolved earlier during step 5, which might cause them to go before, at the same time or after reducing to 0 abilities. Unfortunately that interpretation follows the rules about as well as all the others so there is no way to know if it is right.

...I have no useful answers to give. Let's hope this will make it to the FAQ at some point.

[wopr1986]

I don't have the rule book to hand (and its already been spotted once today...), but I believe general timing on page 36(?) talks about abilities and triggers that occur "after damaging". And these will happen before models are removed from play.So the model damaged by a stalker (or Sonnia with her trigger) will be reduced to 0, but before they are removed from play, the "after damaging" addition of Burning will occur. SO when they are removed, they are on fire, and can be turned into stalkers.

Just checked the small rulebook pg 26 "after damaging- these effects happen after step 5 if the target suffers 1 or more damage. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed". So it does work for both stalkers and sonnia you gain the condition whilst at zero wounds and violation of magic wants an enemy model to be reduced to zero wounds and have burning. Thanks everyone for the replies

[Ausplosions]

Unfortunately for us Sonnia players the ability does not trigger on "removed from play" but "reduced to zero wounds" which happens before the burning is applied so no stalkers unless they were burning before the attack.

No. This is incorrect. Sonnia CAN get a Stalker in this situation. Also. Can this be added to the FAQ already, it come up once a month.

[Ludvig]

Wow, hadn't noticed that there was a debate concerning that, but that's half the fun playing boardgames   

 

All the info I can find regardin damage flips is on page 46, am I missing something else related? What is this step 5? I find 5 steps for duels but the damage flip is not a duel, just a flip right?

 

I'm 100% on board with the fact that before the model is removed burning is applied but surely you apply all the damage, use soulstones for prevention and after that determine triggers that depend on damaging? Otherwise you could never use soulstones to prevent killing damage and attackers would also get to use "after damaging"-triggers against someone who prevented all the damage using a soulstone?

[dgraz]

 Can this be added to the FAQ already, it come up once a month.

minimum.

[wopr1986]

Wow, hadn't noticed that there was a debate concerning that, but that's half the fun playing boardgames   

 

All the info I can find regardin damage flips is on page 46, am I missing something else related? What is this step 5? I find 5 steps for duels but the damage flip is not a duel, just a flip right?

 

I'm 100% on board with the fact that before the model is removed burning is applied but surely you apply all the damage, use soulstones for prevention and after that determine triggers that depend on damaging? Otherwise you could never use soulstones to prevent killing damage and attackers would also get to use "after damaging"-triggers against someone who prevented all the damage using a soulstone?

 

It has to do at least 1 damage so the SS prevention does still work and step 5 is "resolving" aka making the damage flip or any other resulting flips needed, then even if at 0 wounds they are still not removed from play. Then you apply burning (still at zero) then you check violations conditions are met, model has been reduced to zero wounds with burning pay your 2 cards or SS and bam new stalker for sonnia. The more I play/learn her the more awesome she becomes.

 

 

No. This is incorrect. Sonnia CAN get a Stalker in this situation. Also. Can this be added to the FAQ already, it come up once a month.

 

Sorry I didn't see it in the forums or I wouldn't have dragged it up again. They should also clear up that flame walls are markers not terrain

[Myyrä]

No. This is incorrect. Sonnia CAN get a Stalker in this situation. Also. Can this be added to the FAQ already, it come up once a month.

I don't agree with you about anything except this needing to be answered in the FAQ.

[wopr1986]

Also this is a lesson in using "cheat jpegs" my opponent had a trigger timings one that was too brief so for the sake of game speed we just made a ruling (the wrong one I now realise). Thanks to this topic I found where to look in the book specifically (thanks again) but I can see how  the same questions coming up can be frustrating but so could a 30 page FAQ.

[Ausplosions]

I don't agree with you about anything except this needing to be answered in the FAQ.

 

 

Which is why it needs an FAQ.  Because to me it is plain as day that a stalker can be made, and for some inexplicable reason, other people read it a different way.

[dgraz]

I don't agree with you about anything except this needing to be answered in the FAQ.

Which is too bad because he's totally right.

 

If I remember correctly, I think even Justin said in one of the many threads about this that Sonnia gets the Stalker in any of these weird timing issues. I have no idea why this hasn't been FAQed already.

[Ludvig]

I would be super ready to drop this discussion but I can't find the earlier ruling on this. Did Justin state specifically that Sonnias ability should mean killed/sacrificed or that all after damaging triggers can affect things happening during the entire resolve step? I found one thread from January discussing Violation of magic but no response from Justin in that thread. From the FAQ I found this: 

 

"Q: When do “After Succeeding” Triggers occur?

A: They occur after Step 5 of the Action sequence, so after applying the results of the Action."

 

According to this you should first resolve step 5 completely and then move on to triggers. According to my understanding of this FAQ you first reduce to zero wounds and after that you apply the conditions.

 

My interpretation of the ability is that you get one chance to summon in the exact moment that the model i s reduced to 0 wounds, at that moment you check if the model has burning, it does not have burning, therefore no summon. Then the opportunity passes and you move on to resolving triggers before removing the model, in this case applying burning because you took damage. 

[Tapdancer]

That is an over interpretation of the of what is actually written.  The ability simple requires for a model to have the burning condition and be reduced to 0 wounds.  The timing would only be critical if something occurred between the steps which meant both conditions were not met at the same time.  The sense of urgency or transience people are reading in to "when" is an extrapolation. 

[mythicFOX]

It would be incredibly helpful to all concerned if someone could quote the Witchling summoning rule we're discussing at this point. 

[Bengt]

Reincarnation

 

Violation of Magic: When an enemy model with the Burning Condition within  10 of Sonnia is reduced to 0 Wounds, Sonnia may spend a Soulstone or discard two cards to summon a Witchling Stalker into base contact with the model before it is removed.

[Myyrä]

That is an over interpretation of the of what is actually written.  The ability simple requires for a model to have the burning condition and be reduced to 0 wounds.  The timing would only be critical if something occurred between the steps which meant both conditions were not met at the same time.  The sense of urgency or transience people are reading in to "when" is an extrapolation.

The case being discussed is when the targer hasn't got burning condition before attack. Sonnia's attack can give out burning, but that is an "after damaging" trigger. The way I see it, the question is really about whether "after reducing to 0 wounds" ability or "after damaging" trigger is resolved first.

Rulebook says nothing about the exact timing of after "reducing to 0" abilities or triggers. The two possible interpretations that I can think of would be during step 5, when damage is applied, or after step 5, at the same time with other "after" triggers that have their timing spelled out pretty clearly. If you just follow the letter of the rules during step 5 seems to be the only real possibility.

To add to the confusion the timing of "after damaging" triggers is not quite as clear as I would hope. The problem arises when target model is killed and after damaging trigger needs to be resolved before removing the model. This can be done in at least three ways none of which contradicts the rules more than others. I would like to point out that I haven't invented these three cases myself, but they have come from other players, all of whom have been absolutely certain that they are correct about the timing.

1. Removing the model is delayed until after damaging trigger is resolved with its normal timing. This would also mean that removing the model would happen after "after succeeding/resolving/failing" triggers are resolved if they go before the "after damaging" trigger.

2. Removing the model is delayed and "after damaging" trigger is moved up so that it is resolved after step 5, but before other "after" triggers.

3. Removing the model is not delayed and after damaging trigger is instead moved up and resolved during step 5, when you would normally remove the model.

Edit: That Justin said so argument is thrown around every time this question is presented. I have never seen it actually quoted and I'm starting to think that it might not exist. Add to that the fact that Justin said so is not an official ruling until it's in the FAQ.

[wopr1986]

There does seem to be a missing "step" or ambiguity around being reduced to zero and removing from play. The more times I think it through and try to explain my interpretations the more confused I get, so I give up. Unless a card specifically states otherwise(e.g Bette noir) or there is clarification they die at zero no possible stalkers.

Against Hamlin or nico or any clump of models it's too strong without it as is, even with htk giving burning on fist attack killing on second and dropping 2 cards and 2 stones for 3 stalkers is insane.

[Ludvig]

Not being native to english I'll have to accept that I may be reading the ability a bit narrowly. So being reduced is sort of an ongoing thing and the individual timing is irrelevant. Awesome for Sonnia!!! 

 

I always thought that the wording "reduced to 0 wounds" was specifically designed to prevent her from doing this exact thing with her own attack since they could easily have used the more common "when killed or sacrificed".

 

Does this mean that a model that is instant-killed by an executioners Bloody Exhibition ("After damaging, immediately kill the target unless it discards two cards or two soulstones") is also considered to reach 0 wounds and is eligible?

[Myyrä]

Not being native to english I'll have to accept that I may be reading the ability a bit narrowly. So being reduced is sort of an ongoing thing and the individual timing is irrelevant. Awesome for Sonnia!!! 

 

I always thought that the wording "reduced to 0 wounds" was specifically designed to prevent her from doing this exact thing with her own attack since they could easily have used the more common "when killed or sacrificed".

 

Does this mean that a model that is instant-killed by an executioners Bloody Exhibition ("After damaging, immediately kill the target unless it discards two cards or two soulstones") is also considered to reach 0 wounds and is eligible?

The timing of "when killed or sacrificed" isn't any clearer than "reduced to 0 wounds".

Executioner killing a model with Bloody Exhibition does not reduce the model to 0 wounds. (Unless the damage from the attack does that of course.)

[Adran]

I always thought that the wording "reduced to 0 wounds" was specifically designed to prevent her from doing this exact thing with her own attack since they could easily have used the more common "when killed or sacrificed".

 

Does this mean that a model that is instant-killed by an executioners Bloody Exhibition ("After damaging, immediately kill the target unless it discards two cards or two soulstones") is also considered to reach 0 wounds and is eligible?

 

No. If it needs you to reduce it to 0 wounds, then you have to reduce it to 0 wounds, rather than just kill or sacrifice it.

[Ludvig]

Haha, bad case of posting before thinking-syndrome on my part.

[Tapdancer]

the different wording is there for an obvious reason. If the standard kill or sacrifice was used the linkage to having the burning condition would be alot more messy as burning is resolved then removed before a model is "killed "