Miniatures out of scale

[r4st4f4n]

I thought that someone would point out the link this thread:
http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/102699-wyrd-and-qc/
in which most part of this thread has already been discussed.
Oh, well. I'll do it myself

[jonahmaul]

in which most part of this thread has already been discussed.

As Math has already said, not everybody checks the forums in depth before posting topics, particularly if they are new members (I know that I often don't do this).

[Poko]

 

Also for those that are ranting about the difficulty or quality of plastics, to you I say give Wyrd a bloody break!! They dealt with metal mini's for years, they aren't as well practiced as GW or Mantic and the likes. They have only been dealing with them for roughly 2-3 years apposed to GW who have been in the plastics game for over 30. They are probably still learning on how to develop better techniques to make their insanely nice plastics more manageable. They have got pretty much everything spot on with M2E, there isn't much of a need to bash them on their kits.

Surely they should sell those kits at a discount then, if they are just learning and aren't offering a top-quality product?

 

Sarcasm aside, Wyrd outsourced minis production, didn't they? So it's literally a case of Made In China instead of anything to do with internal Wyrd decisions.

[Jimbobovalsocks]

Hahahhahaha! Dancater wins the Tuesday forum comic prize! I don't like to hear Chinese bashing when it comes to quality control. The fault is with the customer and not with the manufacturer in China. Pretty much everything is made in China and plenty of it works fine.

 

P.S. What do you mean by this - "a case of Made In China"?

 

P.P.S. My partner is Chinese and I'm a massive fan of all (or most) things East Asian so maybe I'm being sensitive but seriously, a one off can be put down to the manufacturer but as the customer, Wyrd also has a responsibility to check the quality of their products and if the manufacturer keeps messing up, they have to take control of the situation.

[Poko]

 

Pretty much everything is made in China and plenty of it works fine

Usually the "plenty" is from companies who know to have a guy with a big stick over the manufacturer's head to ensure QC, from what I have been told. Otherwise you end up with cancerogenic powder in baby formula. This has nothing to do with qualities of Chinese as people and individuals. And while yes, Wyrd should probably keep a closer eye on it, they can't really afford to push an entire wave back because of one model that came out wonky. If they still made metals it would be no issue, but now as it's part of a sprue with other bits on it, it's not an option is it?

[Loveless]

Pretty much everything is made in China and plenty of it works fine.

 

Leaving non-gaming things out, I'd tend to only agree if the product owner has a presence there.

When it comes to gaming production (miniatures, cards, and whatnot), several Chinese companies (no idea which ones, it's always just labeled as "the manufacturer in China" or "the new prints from China" or what have you) have a tendency to say "good enough" with the first several attempts at a product.  Either the game company rides them until they get it right or they release an inferior product.  Ultimately "we had to change manufacturers" becomes a pretty common comment from game companies as several plastic model producers seem apathetic in their work even at the management level - it's a job, not a passion and such.

 

Sometimes you get a company that's absurdly eager to help you out.  If we're to believe Adam Poots (and I tend to), the constant delay of Kingdom Death: Monster is due to both himself and the rep at the production company being obsessed with taking the quality up to 11 and making it a premier product. 

 

However, sometimes you end up a company that says "Eh, okay" and you get things like Mantic's plastic goblins or men-at-arms, that eventually cause the gaming company to completely re-evaluate their partnerships and QC.

 

Now to the final point - I don't even remember if Mantic's issues came from a Chinese producer - but that's ultimately irrelevant.  This is going to happen no matter where the production facility is located - it just so happens that a ton of them are apparently in China.  This exacerbates things by being some distance from the usual target markets of Europe and North America, so there can be a lot of extra waiting and exasperation from both sides of the equation. 

[tmod]

Regarding what Wyrd has said and has not said:

As far as I'm aware, they've said there's been a scale issue with the Vics, and that box was recalled. That's it. After seeing the female TTB minis not being up for GenCon, we can assume they were not happy with them either, but the only word from Wyrd was that they fit their purpose. We've also been told several kits have been delayed due to QC issues, and scale might be as good a guess as any.

 

Regarding scale:

Wyrd can basically choose exactly how they want their miniatures to look, and very few miniatures are correct to any scale. The definition of the scale itself (average distance between ground and eye level is XXmm, 32mm in Wyrd's case). Some will be taller, some will be smaller. Regarding the Death Marshall for instance, Wyrd has gone on record saying he is intentionally much bigger than the others. It seems that Wyrd prefers to reduce the height difference between models that are in any way bent/crouching/kneeling and those that are standing up. Do I think their models would be even better if this was less pronounced? Yes, indeed! But it is, based on the information we have, a deliberate choice, not a QC issue. I think they'd be better off exaggerating the crouching models less, but it's still a choice. That's all I'm saying...

 

Design choices:

Pretty much all miniature lines have some pecularities. "Heroic" scale miniature lines (like GW) tend to have enlargened heads and hands. The reason is that they feel this makes their models look better than would have been the case with more realistic models. Based on sales numbers (though dropping fast!) they might be onto something. Wyrd has the pecularity that they tend to exaggerate models in dramatic poses, especially when doubled over, and models used as victims tend to be more in scale with whatever monster is abusing them than everybody else. Also, they tend to pose models so they don't fit on their bases, several are fiddly and fragile, and some have a "2D" design that looks great from one angle/crap from others. Do I like these pecularities? No. Do I hope they move away from them in the future? Yes, definitely. However, this is different from poor QC, which implies that many models have random errors. These are systematic, not random, and are unpopular design choices, but still choices as far as we know...

 

You're forgetting the Flesh Construct victim, the Wendigo victim, the Young LaCroix with the gun, the Young LaCroix mooning, and so on and so forth.

I can sorta believe your explanation for Brass Arachnid or the Skeeters (they are simply a bad design that would've been impossible to do in their proper size so they blew them up - fitting on a base be damned) but not for most of the models that are grossly out of scale.

BUT, Wyrd is aware of the QC issues regarding scale and have said that they'll be paying more attention to that in the future (and also make the piece count lower in the kits).

 

I did not forget the Flesh construct victim, the Wendigo victim and the two Young LaCroix, quite on the contrary! I have not seen any of these in the flesh, but the renders/art for these look great, and the models (according to the pictures I've seen) look like spot on from the renders. Even down to the perspective in the case of the Flesh Construct. This means that the proportions are off, perspective only works when seen from a specific angle. I wish they'd pay more attention to getting the models look good in real life, and less on making them look like the renders, but that's their design choice. In my oppinion, the Wendigo and the Flesh Construct both look great, but I agree of course that they have their issues. The Wendigo's victim looks ok, as long as he isn't right next to other human models. He is a perfect fit for the Wendigo, less so for the other human characters in the game. Similar story with the Flesh Construct victim: esthetically it works great when seen from the front (like the box art), not so great when seen from other angles or next to another human model.

 

Actually I think models like the Brass Arachnid and the Skeeters are more of a problem. There are actually quite a few of them, and although they look great they have important issues that makes them either unbasable or unplayable. The new skeeters look amazing, but if they get a redesign I'll be the first in line for a box of four that will actually survive the transport from my miniature cabinet to the gaming table, nevermind their first game... The Brass Arachnid, Steam Trunk, Miss step, and other models are too big to fit on their bases, and that is something I hope they avoid in the future. I also they avoid models like the Flesh Construct or Mei Feng's fence which only look good from a certain angle. This is still design choices (poor ones in my opinion), not faulty models/poor QC...

 

I'm with Math.  Your explanation is sort of acceptable in some instances but I'm afraid the argument falls down here in particular:

There are a lot of miniatures that are a pain to put together because they are in so many pieces (one of the common complaints about the Wyrd plastic despite how awesome they are).  Just go look at the Zombie Chihuahua, clearly they're not concerned about whether size is an important indicator of being easier to put together.  And the look better argument falls down as well I'm afraid because the massively oversized miniatures look crap!

 

As Math says, Wyrd are aware of issues with the scale of some miniatures so it clearly is a QC issue (albeit one they are thankfully addressing).

 

I don't see how this is relevant. Wyrd has gone on record complaining about their manufacturer splitting up the sculpts resulting in a higher number of parts. This has caused Wyrd to change their manufacturer in order to avoid small fiddly bits.

[jonahmaul]

 

But it is, based on the information we have, a deliberate choice, not a QC issue.

 

I don't see how this is relevant. Wyrd has gone on record complaining about their manufacturer splitting up the sculpts resulting in a higher number of parts. This has caused Wyrd to change their manufacturer in order to avoid small fiddly bits.

Based on the information that we have that Wyrd provides.  Is this actually their position though or something that they are claiming in hindsight to excuse poor quality/QC?!  Playing Devil's Advocate here but we have no way of knowing for sure these are deliberate design issues seeing as in all the instances that I can think of this line of reasoning as come after the models have been seen.

 

And regarding the splitting up of the sculpts this is, according to Wyrd and if memory serves me correct, a fault with their 3D designers and not the manufacturers who just manufacture to the specifications they are provided.  They see these designs before they are sent for print so could get them changed (although the practicalities of this are more difficult that changing the completely off scale of some miniatures).

[Math Mathonwy]

I did not forget the Flesh construct victim, the Wendigo victim and the two Young LaCroix, quite on the contrary! I have not seen any of these in the flesh, but the renders/art for these look great, and the models (according to the pictures I've seen) look like spot on from the renders. Even down to the perspective in the case of the Flesh Construct. This means that the proportions are off, perspective only works when seen from a specific angle. I wish they'd pay more attention to getting the models look good in real life, and less on making them look like the renders, but that's their design choice. In my oppinion, the Wendigo and the Flesh Construct both look great, but I agree of course that they have their issues. The Wendigo's victim looks ok, as long as he isn't right next to other human models. He is a perfect fit for the Wendigo, less so for the other human characters in the game. Similar story with the Flesh Construct victim: esthetically it works great when seen from the front (like the box art), not so great when seen from other angles or next to another human model.

You really need to see these in the flesh, then.

The FC victim is gigantic except that he has a tiny head (that is from one of the Illuminated, actually). It looks seriously weird in the flesh, from any angle that you can see the victim clearly. The Young LaCroix are absolutely gigantic - especially the one with the gun.

I really, really have zero belief in the idea that the gun Young LaCroix is a design choice. She is completely weird. And the box was recalled when someone pointed out that it didn't have enough Young LaCroix in it. So I'm guessing that they got the two added and didn't do QC and ended up with the giants. The piggybacking ones are appropriately sized and look great (and they are the ones that are in the artwork in the original book).

[Lucidicide]

I don't know if you guys know this, but Wyrd's office space is actually in an old funhouse. Everything looks a'OK in some of these mirrors, so I don't know what ya'll are talking about...

 

 

 

*Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with production. I am making a joke.

[zFiend]

I don't know if you guys know this, but Wyrd's office space is actually in an old funhouse. Everything looks a'OK in some of these mirrors, so I don't know what ya'll are talking about...

 

Official answer! We got them now!

[Justin]

Please see the scenario in the October Chronicles.

 

/official response/

[valhallan42nd]

That's a huuuuuuuuuuuge.....

[LunarSol]

I really, really have zero belief in the idea that the gun Young LaCroix is a design choice. She is completely weird. And the box was recalled when someone pointed out that it didn't have enough Young LaCroix in it. So I'm guessing that they got the two added and didn't do QC and ended up with the giants. The piggybacking ones are appropriately sized and look great (and they are the ones that are in the artwork in the original book).

 

The gun Young is stretched out and obvious, but I'm curious if the real giant is the mooner.  His legs are bent 45 degrees and his torso is a full 180 from there.  I'd be curious to know just how big he is unfolded.  Either way, they share a consistent problem in that all 3 models are the same height, even though one model is 2 characters stacked on top of one another. It's also worth noting that in some cases, like the Samurai, the kneeling model is much shorter in the render, and it seems most of the height was added when the figure was physically printed.

[tmod]

Based on the information that we have that Wyrd provides. Is this actually their position though or something that they are claiming in hindsight to excuse poor quality/QC?! Playing Devil's Advocate here but we have no way of knowing for sure these are deliberate design issues seeing as in all the instances that I can think of this line of reasoning as come after the models have been seen.

That's true, but that's exactly my point! Wyrd might very well have screwed up and lied to us, but they could also be telling the truth! And so far this thread have been full of claims basically that Wyrd is lying to us and we all know it, whereas I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt like everyone else. At least we owe them the courtesy to say we BELIEVE they're lying, not present is as a verified fact!

Also I think these claims are damaging to the hobby and game in general. For example I've seen people not wanting to buy the Hired Swords box because the sizes are "all over the place". They're not, but if all issues with Wyrd are due to qc it's understandable that people get that impression. If there truly were a qc issue, one would expect the quality to vary between different copies of the same boxes (like GW's Finecast).

Wyrd have had design issues (Mei Feng's base, the oversized victims, crouching giants, etc) and manufacturing issues (giant vics, possibly Brewmaster, tiny fiddly bits), but the sets have been largely consistent. If you don't like the design of a mini, don't buy it! (I know this is always possible for each specific crew, but hey, what can you do?)

If you do like how the mini looks theres no reason to avoid buying it due to qc worries!

And regarding the splitting up of the sculpts this is, according to Wyrd and if memory serves me correct, a fault with their 3D designers and not the manufacturers who just manufacture to the specifications they are provided. They see these designs before they are sent for print so could get them changed (although the practicalities of this are more difficult that changing the completely off scale of some miniatures).

They changed manufacturer in order to avoid this problem, and it was stated that the manufacturer changed the blueprints they were sent. It could very well be that they could've been more on the manufacturer's back to get simpler sprues, and it might very well be Wyrd's fault, but still a design/manufacturing issue, not qc...

[tmod]

You really need to see these in the flesh, then.

Fair enough, and I probably will soon enough. I like all the miniatures im question, but I might do some converting based on how they look on photos...

The FC victim is gigantic except that he has a tiny head (that is from one of the Illuminated, actually). It looks seriously weird in the flesh, from any angle that you can see the victim clearly.

From what I've seen in photos I agree. It only make sense viewed from the same angle as the box art. Just like Mei Feng's fence, this reinforces my guess that Wyrd has been focusing on badass art, and then produced exactly that miniature in 3d. Not a popular choice by me, but still a legitimate design choice.

The Young LaCroix are absolutely gigantic - especially the one with the gun.

I really, really have zero belief in the idea that the gun Young LaCroix is a design choice. She is completely weird. And the box was recalled when someone pointed out that it didn't have enough Young LaCroix in it. So I'm guessing that they got the two added and didn't do QC and ended up with the giants. The piggybacking ones are appropriately sized and look great (and they are the ones that are in the artwork in the original book).

You might very welk be right in this, though it's still just a guess. With the rush to get things ready for GenCon it's entirely conceivable that these and the female TTB sprue got rushed into production and they didn't have time to get things the way they wanted. And I completely agree that the piggybacking one is the only really good Young LaCroix; I'd much rather use the old ones! Yet Wyrd's still consistent: the minis I find too tall are the ones bending over in some way. To me that seems to be because Wyrd want the models to look equally tall on the table top and look good by themselves, and being less concerned about relative height. I don't like it, I agree with you completely, but every crouching miniature they release is a further indication this is the Wyrd style of making bent over minis, not a qc issue!