Confused about arsenal decks

[Scorpion0x17]

Not sure how the Arsenal Decks are being considered the only or even the best method of getting to know the available model pool. The big books contain all the models and rules and even together are much cheaper than the 14 Arsenal Decks and Mini Rule book, leaving more room for model purchases.

I don't believe they are being considered that.

[Scorpion0x17]

I wonder, is there a similar thread to this in which people claim that the Schemes and Strategies deck is only of value to those that need the players aid and faction schemes? 

[Omenbringer]

Haven't seen one pertaining to that though it could be entertaining.

[nogoatsnoglory]

I personally find the cards more helpful, even for factions I do not play so that I can see what my opponents characters are and what they can do without having to bug my opponent.  While the book does have all of the info and may be cheaper, I find being able to set aside the 5-15 cards to be quicker.  I personally am not a fan of having to flip through a book trying to find what I need, even finding it little bulky.  

 

I think Scorpions point being that it comes down to preference is really true.  I for one am happy that there is even an option for both to suit a wider variety of players.  Most games would just give you a book and thats that!

[Mason]

You could just photocopy the pages you want to use and then cut out the cards at the bottom.  We have newer players that have done that before they find a crew that they like, or while waiting for our store to get more arsenal decks in stock (they go fast). 

[Adran]

The point I am trying to make, and you seem to be failing to understand, is precisely that we put different values on the decks because we are coming at the game from entirely different places.

 

You may find the most value to be being able to use models you don't have the cards for, but that doesn't mean that everyone else should agree with you.

I find reason A the most valuable, you find reason B the most valuable.

But, neither reason is more important than the other.

 

They are both of equal importance.

 

My point is that I might find Reason A just as valuble as you in an absolute terms (and I think we are probably pretty close at how much we value access to all the cards from what I read in your posts). I also have reason B. So if you were to consider the value to you in percenatges it might look like A is more important to you (100%), than me (say 50%), even though in actual value we might find reason A equally important.

(For example you might find reason A is worth £10 to pay. I also value reason A at £10, but I value reason B at £15. We are both happy to pay £10 for the deck. I would actually be prepared to spend £25 as I get addiitonal value from it, but it doesn't make my valuing of reason A any lower than yours, If the deck was changes to only work for reason A, I'd still  pay £10 for it. If it changed to only be for reason B, I'd still pay upto £15, you wouldn't bother with it at all)

 

(honestly the value I place on owning the card went up hugely during the beta testing of the game when I found how much not having the card for a model annoyed me when I tried to play that model. Even printouts of the cards weren't as good. Despite having printed out every wave 2 card at the end of beta, and carrying them around, I still didn't like to use more than 1 or 2 of them at a time, and barely used any of the masters or upgrades. Now I'ev got the decks, I can happily play crews entirely with wave 2 models.)

 

I also disagree that all reasons are of equal importance to the company ( I might buy the arsenal deck because one of the crads looks exactly like my grandmother. In that case that is the most valuble reason to me. It means nothing to you. From a company point of view there is such a small number of people that will buy the product because it looks like their grandmother they need not worry about changing the cards so they no longer look like my grandmother if they gain soem other benefit from the change).

Every individual will have their own reason to own it, and their own value they place on it. To them that reason can be as important as my reason to own it is to me. Actually why joe bloggs chose to buy it really doesn't affect me.

 

If Wyrd do change the card distribution system, and there is a reasonable chance they will based on why they created the system in the first place, then discussions such as this would be useful to them in deciding how they want to change it.

There were plenty of complaints about the Arsenal decks, and using them as the only method to obtain generic upgrades (And the number people needed to buy to play their crew)  when it was frist announced. In my view, in the long term of the game, they can't justify releasing 7 new decks every August, and expecting that all players need every years deck.

 

I'm going back to my McCabe example. You buy his box now and to get all the eligible upgardes for him you will have to buy 4 arsenal decks. You will get 23 cards you need, and 227 cards you don't need (or already have). I'm happy to do this, as I like to read what my opponed can do. But would I recomend this to a new player? If they are tight on Budget, it does seem very wasteful.

[Thaarup]

For those who think it is to expensive to buy the whole deck and only use a few of the cards...there are a few other options. 

1. Share the cost/cards with another new player.

2. Buy the cards as singles. There are a link somewhere on the forum for one who sells single cards.

 

Anyway, for the majority it is not too expensive, even though it might be irritating.

[r4st4f4n]

I was one of the first promoters of Generic upgrades + Schemes&strategies deck, back to Wave 1 Beta forum.
Moslty because me and my friends were able to buy a single deck, and then divide it between old crews we owned, since we had none twice. And while that allowed to update my Mei Feng and their Misaki and Lynch all at once, then we had a problem with impossible general upgrades split up. And buying again and again all the same cards just for those five seemed a bit dumb.
As time has passed, I changed my mind a bit, though I was still hoping they were there, when the Strategies and Schemes deck was first teased.

But, we have to admit, that this discussion has actually moved too far vs something 'Custom requests of very personal formats of what cards I want and what not', and that we've not come up with a very decisive and objectively more effective wrap up idea than the current one. And given the low price for the Arsenal Decks is given especially from their high-volume production, so we can afford more cards for a lower price for the same reason that sometimes we have to buy the deck because we need just some of the cards in there, we also face the fact that there are many different requests about which those cards are, and I'm starting to think we're not able to significantly just improve the actual form...

[Scorpion0x17]

 

I think Scorpions point being that it comes down to preference is really true.  I for one am happy that there is even an option for both to suit a wider variety of players.  Most games would just give you a book and thats that!

Exactly!

 

And...

...waiting for our store to get more arsenal decks in stock (they go fast). 

...this suggests that a lot of new players are finding plenty enough value in the decks, because otherwise they wouldn't keep on selling!

[Omenbringer]

...this suggests that a lot of new players are finding plenty enough value in the decks, because otherwise they wouldn't keep on selling!

The other possibility is that players from his old community are starting to come back, its not like the old communities were small (in a lot of locations they were much larger than the new ones are now). Those older players bridging editions would need to purchase them in order to play M2e.

[Scorpion0x17]

The other possibility is that players from his old community are starting to come back, its not like the old communities were small (in a lot of locations they were much larger than the new ones are now). Those older players bridging editions would need to purchase them in order to play M2e.

Let me more fully quote his post...

 

"We have newer players that have done that before they find a crew that they like, or while waiting for our store to get more arsenal decks in stock (they go fast)."

 

Not "old players".

[Omenbringer]

So the assumption is that only the new players are grabbing them all up as soon as they come in? The quoted section doesn't preclude the older community from purchasing them only that the Arsenal decks dont stay in stock long. The context of the quoted portion was also that players dont need the Arsenal Decks at all provided they have access to the Big Books and a decent copier or multifunction color printer.

 

That you find value in them outside of bridging editions is awesome (it may keep them in circulation longer) however it doesn't invalidate the opinion that they are probably of most value to a player that is bridging editions. I can tell you that if they weren't available I would have moved on to something else soon after the edition change (as I am not a big fan of photocopied cards).

 

I will bow out of this one though as neither of us is likely to change the others opinion and it has been civil so far.

[Mason]

The other possibility is that players from his old community are starting to come back, its not like the old communities were small (in a lot of locations they were much larger than the new ones are now). Those older players bridging editions would need to purchase them in order to play M2e.

 

Nobody around here even knew that Malifaux existed before 2nd edition, so they're all new players. 

[Scorpion0x17]

Would I be correct in thinking that the new players also photocopy the cards in the book not through choice, but through necessity, Mindshred?

[Math Mathonwy]

It's all relative. If you have very little extra money and that's why you picked Malifaux in the first place, then yeah I can see how it would be expensive. If you've come from other wargames that can easily be two or three times more expensive then Malifaux, then getting those cards is a pittance.

Things have an absolute value, though. I have a pretty good income. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination but am blessed in that I currently have no hobby budget - I just buy stuff if I feel like since ultimately the limiting factor for me is time, not money. So no, 16 dollars won't sway my budget. But I refuse to buy, e.g., a twenty dollar doughnut even if I could easily afford to, since the absolute value of an ordinary doughnut to me isn't twenty dollars. That is too expensive for an ordinary doughnut. And would be no matter what I made per month.

 

I wonder, is there a similar thread to this in which people claim that the Schemes and Strategies deck is only of value to those that need the players aid and faction schemes?

If the Scheme and Strategy cards came with, say, new Starter boxes, then we likely would have such a thread. No one is disputing that the cards are useful, some just see little value in buying them twice. For example, Hell Dorado's new plan is to omit the cards from the blisters and only have a deck that you need to purchase if you want the cards.

[Scorpion0x17]

If the Scheme and Strategy cards came with, say, new Starter boxes, then we likely would have such a thread. No one is disputing that the cards are useful, some just see little value in buying them twice. For example, Hell Dorado's new plan is to omit the cards from the blisters and only have a deck that you need to purchase if you want the cards.

Well, maybe that is the better option - to stop including the cards with the models - after all, you don't need them, right - all the cards are in the books - if you need them in card form you can just photocopy them, or buy the arsenal decks and get the added bonus of generic upgrades.

 

And that way no-one loses out - those that buy the decks for the upgrades get the upgrades, those that buy them so they can proxy figures they don't have get to do that, etc, etc.

 

And no-one will have to "buy them twice".

 

Just don't expect your models to get any cheaper.

[Math Mathonwy]

Just don't expect your models to get any cheaper.

Why not? The reason why the generic upgrades aren't in all starter boxes is that it would be too expensive and raise the cost of the box, right?

[Scorpion0x17]

Why not? The reason why the generic upgrades aren't in all starter boxes is that it would be too expensive and raise the cost of the box, right?

Well, let us look at the cost per card of the Arsenal Decks that I personally own:

 

Arcanist Wave 1: 61 cards @$8.00 = $0.13 per card.

Arcanist Wave 2: 79 cards @$9.00 = $0.11 per card.

Outcasts Wave 1: 54 cards @$8.00 = $0.15 per card.

Outcasts Wave 2: 72 cards @$9.00 = $0.13 per card.

Ten Thunders Wave 1: 56 cards @$8.00 = $0.14 per card.

Ten Thunders Wave 2: 69 cards @$9.00 = $0.13 per card.

 

In Total: 391 cards @$51.00 = $0.13 per card.

 

And how many cards in your average starter? A dozen? 15 at most?

 

So, that's about $2.

 

Now, if one looks at the price of the various model and starter boxes it's clear that the cost of them isn't a precise 'cost of the cards, plastic, and packaging, plus X%' calculation - the starters are all multiples of $5.

 

Do you really think the $50 Ramos Box Set would be $2 cheaper if didn't come with stat and upgrade cards?

[Math Mathonwy]

Do you really think the $50 Ramos Box Set would be $2 cheaper if didn't come with stat and upgrade cards?

The cut-off point has to be somewhere so it might be the current price or it might be $45.

[Myyrä]

Ramos box actually comes with 17 cards so it might be even more than 2$ cheaper!

[Scorpion0x17]

Ramos box actually comes with 17 cards so it might be even more than 2$ cheaper!

$2.21