CannibalBob Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Wyrd is pretty near best in class here, while they have set the bar high with re-making all models in the game in plastic at the same time they're releasing a huge batch of new models... In hindsight, they probably shouldn't discontinue metal models until after a replacement was ready... Bear in mind that this very well may have been a cash-flow decision. Wyrd has come a long way since it was just the painting forums and a couple miniature commissions, but I think people still don't realize that they are still a rather small company. I bet a lot of things that people complain about were necessary choices due to the amount of capital they have to work with. Personally, I have been more impressed by what Wyrd has managed to do than any other miniature company in the last 20 years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mako Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Play testing is done, art work for the most part is done and as such the renders are done; they are not coming up with an idea from blank. Just to raise this little point, the artwork being done really has nothing to do with the renders. Once the art is finished (and some of that will have only been completed in the weeks before the print deadline, since there's basically one artist doing that I think), it can go to the few sculptors they use. Those bits of art then get slotted into that sculptor's schedule (if Wyrd are exceptionally lucky, they'll have someone who simply cleared their board of projects and solely works on Malifaux for the moment, though that's risky for a freelancer on a big project like this, as it's easy to become seen as 'the malifaux sculptor', not a sculptor who'd be available to others.) It's then a long and skillful job to turn that art into a model (put it this way, I know several sculptors who estimate 20+ hours working on a single man sized model, if it's not too complex), then to pose it and refine it, then render it properly for sending to the casters, then get it checked by Wyrd, make any changes, send it to the caster, who waits for a slot and runs it through their tooling processes, test casts, they get sent across and checked, any alterations made, then initial runs in the first available time slot, then further runs... All the art for Crossroads could have been done six months ago, maybe even a year, and the models probably still wouldn't be ready to sell now. And I'd bet it hasn't been done that long. That's before factoring in the production issues, and I seem to remember hearing somewhere that Nathan had had to go over to China to try and get that sorted out once and for all. I can't imagine he went to see the casters for a laugh, and I bet it wasn't exactly a fun meeting. Then there's the less physical timescale type considerations. The models can't come out until the rules do, or they're useless. The rules can come out before the models, as alternatives exist as a temporary (or more permanent) measure - old versions, proxies, and such. So when the book comes out at GenCon, that entire stack of models is then releasable. They get spread through the release window until the next book brings more options into play, which is a year in Wyrd's case. It's unfortunate if something someone wants isn't out immediately, but its also a completely unavoidable part of the process of maintaining the business. Everything in the first six months would be a disaster in the second six months. Again, I know folks who do that kind of job. Just a four month window with no new releases can do a vast amount of damage to a game, and no one would willingly do that to their business (though there are times it's unavoidable). So all in all, their releases are planned out to keep the game and the business moving, based on what's made it through the whole production process, and in what order. Issues have delayed things this year and I bet Wyrd are far more annoyed about that that any customer - it's their jobs and livelihoods, its just a customer's hobby. They'll get back on track as soon as they can, but they'll still spread their releases just like every other business does. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebarbalag Posted October 3, 2014 Report Share Posted October 3, 2014 Thanks, Mako, for the, as usual, informative and calming post. A bunch of new releases came out last month, Zoraida, Ophelia, a handful of small boxes, and we've got a lot more stuff on the schedule for October, as well as the RPG release, which is a huge deal. The summer was rough, we all know that, and no one more than Wyrd, but things are coming around. Deep breaths. I want Molly, too. She's coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck21 Posted October 4, 2014 Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 Maybe next Wyrd Chronicles will have some sort of release schedule. Speaking of which when is the next Wyrd Chronicles? And what about next round of beta testing. Those avatars aren't going to play test themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mako Posted October 4, 2014 Report Share Posted October 4, 2014 Chronicles is usually out around the 10th of the month, so another week. The avatars, according to a post by Justin, are going to the henchmen in November, then public testing in January. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requirement Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 While strolling through the internet the other day I came across this article: http://www.plasticstoday.com/articles/additive-manufacturing-rapid-tooling-give-gamers-intricate-miniatures-fast-0822220123 It's a technical article from Plastics Today about how Wyrd is casting models. I found it informative (and a little dry, what can you expect from Plastics Today, though?) It also brings some insight into the technical limitations to releasing models. This is literally the fastest it has been ever. I believe, without actual evidence, just my memory, that more models are coming out a month now than back in the metal days. I think that taking into account that Wyrd is trying to put out around 150 models just from book 1, it is more than fair to expect their release schedule to get muddled a bit at times. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 A lot of this could have been mitigated if they had released crews/ models that were unavailable in either medium first. Plastic versions of the existing metal models should have been slated throughout and not front loaded. It isn't a good situation when your communities have to either wait for the crew they want to come out or proxy everything with other companies product. This hinders growth. Hindsight is always 20/ 20 though, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Most of the new masters are in Wave 2 though. So you're asking for Wave 2 masters to be released before Wave 1. With the exception of Brewmaster of course, and this thread isn't about Brewmaster as far as I can tell. I'm really not sure what it is we think they should be mitigating... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Tara as well, along with a host of individual models. We are seeing the same thing happen with the Wave 2 models. Though a topic that has already been discussed at length in several other threads, re-releasing the entire line in plastic beginning with models that were already available in metal caused more than a few issues. The least of which was forcing a rush to production that hurt quality control. It also diverted resources from the models that are completely unavailable in either medium (why we are still waiting for models from Wave 1). Some forethought could have seen the Brew Master and Tara (non-nightmare version) released a year ago and the metal crews replaced in plastic at a more sustainable pace that would have mitigated the quality control issues we have seen with the "new" plastics (scaling and amount of fiddly bits per model). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 I see no reason why "new masters before existing masters" and "quality control" are in the slightest bit linked.... How would an early release for Brewmaster and Tara have impacted the number of fiddly bits on Bayou Gremlins? Yea you might have Brewmaster in the shops a year ago, but you might not have So'mer even now! And yea he might not have as many fiddly bits when he eventually did come out, but the decision to go for a "sustainable pace" of releases doesn't follow from the release of Brewmaster a year previous. Surely you can't believe that Wyrd are bashing out sub-standard models in some sort of rush to get to Brewmaster and other new stuff? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Som'er and his crew has been out for years, Brew Master still isn't except for the lone Nightmare edition Whiskey Golem model. By slowing the release schedule (something that could have happened if they focused on the unavailable models first) they would have had more time for quality control on all the new plastic kits. This would have allowed them more time to catch things like the odd scales and excessive amounts of fiddly bits. Having seen Wyrd's previous high water mark for quality, attention to detail and customer service over the years, I definitely feel as if they have rushed production of most of their recent endeavors. I do believe they are pumping out "good enough" products at a frenetic pace in order to keep the interest going in a very tough and competitive industry. Ultimately they have all the skin in the game however it doesn't mean that they haven't made bad decisions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme27uk Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I don't see what is wrong with daring to speak about things not being 100% perfect. Yes, its the same story with other companies and such but does that mean we can't at least talk about it. As OB said, why re-release "old model" when newer models are still waiting.... is it better to have multiple Somer's out with no Brewmaster, or release a Brewmaster crew so that he can be played legit and have others who probably already have Somer crews continue.... Just seems when you dare say anything slightly negative you just get bashed down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannibalBob Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I still think this very likely was a cash-flow decision. Moving to plastic is not a cheap thing to do, and it is not unlikely that Wyrd simply did not have the capital to continue to produce the full metal range while also moving towards making all models in plastic. They have had a few QC issues with their plastics, but I find that even that issue is something they have done better than other companies currently on the market. GWs QC was absolutely awful when they moved their metals to resin. I actually liked the finecast material when they did their job with QC and did not sell models with unacceptable defects (my Azhag finecast model is amazing). Unfortunately, they erred on the side of not bother to do QC at all and at least half of all the finecast models I have seen are bad enough that I would ask for replacements. Privateer Press has been moving towards plastic releases, but their plastic is the most awful material I have ever had the misfortune to work with. That plastic-resin junk is so awful that I tend to skip a lot of their releases. I have worked extensively with miniatures for over 20 years, and I detest every second of working with Privateer Press plastic models (I like their metals and resins). This is a shame since on the whole I think their sculpts have gotten better, but the material they use is just garbage and they often stick mold lines in the worst places possible. On the flip side, I greatly enjoy working with the malifaux plastics. They have very little necessary clean-up, and they go together very well with ABS plastic glue. They do have some small fiddly-bits, but that tends to come with the territory for dynamic sculpts due to the nature of under-cuts in plastic molds. My only complaint is that they don't really have a good way to replace a lost part. Since models are packaged mostly in crew boxes it can be an expensive proposition to replace certain key parts if you accidentally lose them. If Wyrd would address that issue somehow then I would have no real complaints with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loveless Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I was about to defend PP plastics only to realize I haven't bought any new ones in months XD The plastic warbeasts tend to be in good condition, but occasionally have the annoying need to trim the pegs to make them fit properly. It's a similar material to Mantic's "restic" and the "plastic" that's use by CMoN and Ninja Division - be prepared for a ton of mold lines in exceedingly awkward spots on the model. Read that as: invest in files. A lot of them are actually quite good models (I'm rather fond of the Deadzone stuff from Mantic and Ninja Division (well, Soda Pop) has some excellent Relic Knights minis). Thing is, that material is vastly different from the "hard plastic" Mantic uses. Privateer doesn't touch that stuff, and last I saw CMoN and ND didn't either. GW is probably the most famous supplier of hard plastic kits (and, say what you will, from a quality standpoint their hard plastics are top notch). Mantic dabbles in it - they're actually getting to the "quite good" stage after going from mediocre to miserable with their fantasy range - their sci-fi zombies are a spectacular kit with damn good detail from what I can see. Then again, they got super-meticulous with their QC after the goblin and men-at-arms debacle. Which, honestly, is something the consumers unfortunately have to deal with. A lot of the products I'm excited for live in the realm of QC yet (Kingdom Death: Monster - good Lord, that one's been turned down for unacceptable quality by the creator more times than I can count, but when a good one gets through, they look spectacular), and a lot of companies have been through Kickstarters and/or small projects ahead of time that lets them understand what they're dealing with. Mantic got a big ole whoops with their Goblin and Men-at-Arms plastics, but took note and improved the process (changed the supplier, maybe?) for their next venture (which was largely sci-fi scenery and troops). They added in an additional shipping phase in the Deadzone kickstarter rather than send out a sub-par product. Given GW's latest pricing trends on their plastic troops, I think they realized people aren't going to (very often) pay $50 for 5 models on 25mm bases or $60 for 10 models on 20mm bases (that you need dozens of because they're unarmored troop choices...), so we've seen lower prices on newer plastic infantry from them (but not too low, it's GW we're talking about here). Wyrd is rather...odd...about their flubs. I swear they flip a card when a situation arises and then consult a chart to see how they handle it. Red Joker: Mea culpa, we'll fix and refund the issue. Ram: It's supposed to be that size. Mask: They're fine for the intended use. Crow: Release delayed indefinitely while we work further QC. Tome: We're looking into it. Black Joker: Mention nothing. Ever. Wyrd's problem before plastic was that nothing was in a consistent scale. Wyrd's problem after plastic is that nothing is in a consistent scale and QC causes "continental drift" release speed. It's rough and any time they get a Ram or a Mask from my list above I sigh and roll my eyes, but they still make one of the most entertaining TT games out there (and it certainly sounds like they're working on better plastics, though the murmurs are vague). I stick around for the ruleset and the randomized victory conditions. The "build to suit the mission" style is also a personal favorite. The models are fiddly and tend to be out of scale with each other, but finishing one is satisfying and the customer service is top notch every time I have to contact them. They've given enough satisfaction from those areas that I'm willing to wait a bit while they sort their crap out. It's a shame that you can't get half of the range easily and it's a shame that the plastic models range from "fantastic" to "what the hell is this crap?", but I'm still going to choose Malifaux over any other TT game if you have a board to play on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 By slowing the release schedule (something that could have happened if they focused on the unavailable models first) This is my point - that's a complete non-sequiteur. Unavailable models doesn't necessarily lead to slower schedules - no reason to think it would. They could quite easily have banged out Brewmaster first, and ploughed on with a fast release schedule including cocked-up scales etc. Slow/fast releases (and QC issues), and new/existing models are completely unrelated decisions made by Wyrd. They should be criticised, or not, on their own merits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I don't see what is wrong with daring to speak about things not being 100% perfect. Yes, its the same story with other companies and such but does that mean we can't at least talk about it. As OB said, why re-release "old model" when newer models are still waiting.... is it better to have multiple Somer's out with no Brewmaster, or release a Brewmaster crew so that he can be played legit and have others who probably already have Somer crews continue.... Just seems when you dare say anything slightly negative you just get bashed down. I'm playing devil's advocate somewhat, because I do agree it would be nice if Brewmaster wasn't left til last in Wave 1, but think of it this way: If they released *all* the new stuff first, that means they then have to slog through 2 years of releases of "old models" before we see a single "new" release. Is that preferable? Under the current system, the "new" stuff is sprinkled throughout the entire range's release, prolonging interest, keeping people coming back etc. Why bother to release "old models" at all, anyway? The guy with metal Somer crew can continue to play with his metals without ever releasing a new version, right...? Fair enough, maybe you don't like So'mer, but a lot of people got excited by the models in his new boxed set and rushed out to buy it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 I think a point is being forgotten for the imagined perfection. The real world and world of business is not smooth. Not is it a simple matter of they should have done this first. First, wyrd doesn't own the machines that create their molds, nor do they own the machines that inject the plastics. The company that runs those machines wants them in operation as much As is possible, and the time spent utilizing those machines adds up in cost very fast. The company that does both has other customers besides wyrd, and from comments developers have made in the past, time slots on the machines are booked way in advance, and it isn't a simple process to just slot in a different group of minis should you decide to try to move up a release. The models in the molds take a certain amount of time before they are cool enough to pop out and start the next. Nathan had mentioned that the nightmare Tara box was so expensive was because of how thick pieces of the nothing were, which requires more cooling time, which eats up expensive time on the machines. I mention this just the illustrate, as I mentioned, that it wouldn't be easy to just change on set of models time slots with another because the time allotted might not be enough. Now considering they wanted to release plastics at the same time as m2e came out they had to book time early on the machines. In order to send a mold to the machines the concept for the model had to be established, artwork created and approved, digital sculpts created and approved, prototypes created an approved, and time booked. Remember in the edition change we don't know when the concepts for the new masters were created. The release of the older masters first is extremely logical when looked at from this point. Their concepts were already done, so they could instantly jump to the artwork phase, which again was easier on the artists because images of the old masters already existed so there was a common language for the developers to speak on, making the artwork move more rapidly then starting from scratch. This would have given the design team time to discuss what they even wanted from the new models and to start alpha testing concepts without the whole process standing at a halt because try specifically wanted to release new models first. We would be months behind the current release schedule, and who knows if there would have been any new plastics for the m2e gen con if they had waited for the new masters to go through all their design processes before starting the new plastic production. I'm not saying that in an ideal world it wouldn't have been better to start with the new masters, just that I can easily see why thy didn't happen, and that the current process was the best option open to them ate time. I think it would have been a terrible idea to not move forward with plastics until the new masters were ready to be produced. Consider also how that would have affected sales. Sales of metal I would imagine fell off once the announcement was made that they were going to plastic. To have then not made any new plastics available as soon as possible would have cut massively into their earnings while they waited for the whole massive lumbering juggernaut of production to get rolling. Even then try might have hit snags. The brewmaster was, at least according to online web stores, supposed to have been released in April of last year, or around then. I would assume there has been some manufacturing or quality delay that has continually pushed his release back. Imagine that happening only that the whole plastic range was out on hold until he and Tara were done. Looked at in totally in a totally simplistic way I think there isnt a single person, other than those who had no interest at all in any of the new masters, that wouldn't agree that it would have been great and logical to get all new masters done in plastic before starting the old masters. I totally agree, but I other than that wish I think ultimately trying to say wyrd made a mistake in this is not fair because the realities of production make the process are WAY more complicated and involve more steps and moving pieces than a simple statement of new masters first allows. Now I could be totally wrong, and I totally admit that, but being a designer, and having worked on lots of projects before, I can totally see this being way more complicated than it might seem. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightmore Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Still I wish they would finally release normal Tara. It was said during Gencon that it'd take a year, year and a half and she is a book 1 master after all. I suspect, that she got tangled up in the production problems that, got the The Kin, and the Bayou Boss boxes delayed for for 3 months. I feel like there was a apart of early 2014 that just didn't work out the way that Wyrd was hoping on the production end, Things seem to be largely shaping up, though the pushback of the Mindless Zombies is kind of a drag. I do think they might have taken some of the metals out of production too soon. I have been having the worst time trying to pick up some Dead Doxies, and a couple other metal minis because I am not inclined to wait for the plastic releases. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 If you are in the US I know of a few Local Game Stores that still have metal product and are willing to ship. PM me and I'll give you their contact info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck21 Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Chronicles, Chronicles, Chronicles, Chronicles, Chronicles, Chronicles, Chronicles, Chronicles, Chronicles, Chronicles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck21 Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I guess there's no Wyrd chronicles this month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mako Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/103910-wyrd-chronicles-14/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck21 Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Mako that was quick thanks. How did I miss that thread LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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