damage flip modifiers.

[The Godlyness]

If an ability says you get or to all flips does it effect the damage flip.

[prof_bycid]

Yes, all flips includes damage flips. The other case, not doing so, is specified by, "all duel flips."

[The Godlyness]

Why does it include damage flips.

I guess my question should have been does "all flips" Specifically say it modifies the damage flip.

[Sevorin]

It would seem to me that all flips mean all flips, including damage flips.

[Dirial]

Why does it include damage flips.

I guess my question should have been does "all flips" Specifically say it modifies the damage flip.

 

Huh? No, it doesn't specifically say that. But a damage flip is a flip, and it modifies all flips. Modifies all flips is not an ability described anywhere in the rulebook, is it?

[zFiend]

All flips = all flips. Is it a flip? It gains a modification.

[Math Mathonwy]

This sorta came up a game between me and ZFiend - Recalled Training indeed says all flips. Damage flips were, in our eyes, a clear-cut case but, somewhat more interestingly, we took this to also include the flips used to choose the target when shooting into close combat.

[zFiend]

This sorta came up a game between me and ZFiend - Recalled Training indeed says all flips. Damage flips were, in our eyes, a clear-cut case but, somewhat more interestingly, we took this to also include the flips used to choose the target when shooting into close combat.

That is true. We kinda just skipped that part though. But there was a though about Wong though. How did it go Math?

[Math Mathonwy]

That is true. We kinda just skipped that part though. But there was a though about Wong though. How did it go Math?

Aye, we didn't end up randomizing into close combat, so it didn't affect anything.

But yes, I think that Wong's "This model gains + to all flips it makes during its Activation which are not part of a duel or damage flips." gives him bonus flips to choosing who is hit when randomizing into close combat. Of course the real point of the Upgrade is to allow bonus flips for his pulses of "flip a card and if a certain suit comes up, stuff happens" so it isn't crystal clear whether the shooting into CC randomization was meant to be affected or not. But however way it goes, it should go the same way for both Recalled Training and A Gremlin's Luck.

[zFiend]

Exactly that. So if you gain a + flip while shooting into engagement do you then get to pick the cards you want to use?

[Math Mathonwy]

Exactly that. So if you gain a + flip while shooting into engagement do you then get to pick the cards you want to use?

That's how plus flips normally work so I would think that it would work like that when choosing the target (you are free to choose which card to use - makes Defensive Stance good if you wish to kill your own model).

Though I do agree that it is a bit weird since I've always took the randomization when shooting to be pure randomization.

[zFiend]

That's how plus flips normally work so I would think that it would work like that when choosing the target (you are free to choose which card to use - makes Defensive Stance good if you wish to kill your own model).

Though I do agree that it is a bit weird since I've always took the randomization when shooting to be pure randomization.

Yeah exactly.

[lusciousmccabe]

I wouldn't give the + flip for randomisation since that says the player flips the cards, not the model.

[zFiend]

I wouldn't give the + flip for randomisation since that says the player flips the cards, not the model.

That actually sounds like an easy answer that we completely missed out on I think.

[Math Mathonwy]

I wouldn't give the + flip for randomisation since that says the player flips the cards, not the model.

Hmm, my book says "The Attacker flips one card for each". The example also talks about a Guild Guard flipping a card for each possible target. I don't see anything about player.

Could you cite the exact passage you're thinking about?

[The Godlyness]

Same line of thought. Does moon shinobi and shenlongs fermented river upgrade specifically say they effect damage flips.

[Dirial]

Same line of thought. Does moon shinobi and shenlongs fermented river upgrade specifically say they effect damage flips.

 

Those say nothing about flips at all. They just mention the modifiers themselves. Thus, they should effect any and all occurrences of modifiers.

[zFiend]

Those say nothing about flips at all. They just mention the modifiers themselves. Thus, they should effect any and all occurrences of modifiers.

My thoughts exactly.

[The Godlyness]

Well in the rulebook under "The damage flip" under the the chart says this

"Damage flips are often the result of a Duel. They do not gain any of the modifiers (Fate or otherwise) that were applied directly to the Duel that might have caused the damage flip. Effects that modify the damage flip will State that they do specifically."

So that last line is the important one.

If you look at things that modify the damage flip the specifically say they do. Focus, great swords, cut to ribbons, Levy's channel, death roll, etc. They all contain the damage flip gains... hard to wound and impossible to wound Jack dawn's oldest magic again damage flip gains ...

So if something gains a :+fate/:-fate to all flips why does it effect the damage flip when it does not say it Specifically does?

Why drunken kung fu unaffected?

[Dirial]

Drunken Kung Fu doesn't modify or affect the damage flip at all. It just treats as and vice versa. (Of course, the result may be a different damage flip.) The sentence you quote is there to dislodge damage flips from duels, but Drunken Kung Fu doesn't refer to duels or flips or anything.

[Makrar]

Effects that modify the damage flip will state that they do so specifically. (Page 52 - Small rulebook)

this looks pretty slam dunk to me. Unless the relevant rule is giving a to all flip specifies that it affects the damage flip than it wont apply.

[The Godlyness]

Well if I look at drunken kung fu as an effect that just changes the modifiers of the flip But does not directly effect the damage flip I guess it could be feasible.

But all flips still does not effect damage.

[The Godlyness]

I can only find 3 things that say all flips. Recalled training, brewmaster,and large steam punk arachnid.

[Sevorin]

 This thread has been very informative. Thanks.

[zFiend]

Then that makes the Moon Shinobi and the Fermented style very much useless if that's how it works?

[Math Mathonwy]

So if something gains a :+fate/:-fate to all flips why does it effect the damage flip when it does not say it Specifically does?

It does: All. "All" includes damage flips.

Why drunken kung fu unaffected?

I suggest you re-read the ability since you seem confused by what it does. It is completely disambiguous.