Lucky Draw - how does it work?

[Math Mathonwy]

Lucky Effigy has this:

(0) Luck o' the Draw: Target friendly Leader within 8" gains the following Condition

until the end of the Turn: "Lucky Draw: Whenever this model flips a Ram in a duel, it

may immediately heal 1 damage."

What does "flips a Ram in a duel" mean?

1) If you flip a ram but cheat a non-ram, do you heal?

2) If you a flip a non-ram but cheat a ram, do you heal?

3) If you flip several cards, one being a ram, but use a non-ram for the duel, do you heal?

4) If you flip several rams, do you heal one for each or one total?

My guess is that you heal with 1) and 3) and for 4) you heal for each card, but I'd like to hear what other people think.

Ophelia tends to flip a lot of cards in duels...

[The Godlyness]

I see no flaws in your logic. Jacob lynch would pick up all the aces flipped or cheated when he is not activating. I see it working similar.

[zFiend]

Lucky Effigy has this:

(0) Luck o' the Draw: Target friendly Leader within 8" gains the following Condition

until the end of the Turn: "Lucky Draw: Whenever this model flips a Ram in a duel, it

may immediately heal 1 damage."

What does "flips a Ram in a duel" mean?

1) If you flip a ram but cheat a non-ram, do you heal?

2) If you a flip a non-ram but cheat a ram, do you heal?

3) If you flip several cards, one being a ram, but use a non-ram for the duel, do you heal?

4) If you flip several rams, do you heal one for each or one total?

My guess is that you heal with 1) and 3) and for 4) you heal for each card, but I'd like to hear what other people think.

Ophelia tends to flip a lot of cards in duels...

 

Ugh.. Why do you do these things?

[MasterDisaster]

As potentially disgusting and annoying as your logic appears I'd have to agree with it. Another reason why I'll never lower myself to play the Gremlins. They seem to have all the nasty tricks. I'd feel dirty pulling this one out on someone! Well... unless it was zFiend in which case it's perfectly acceptable 

[No Gods or Kings. Only Man]

Huh. Does that not mean you could technically go in to a duel actively trying to get :-fate just to get more flips to heal from?

[Dirial]

Huh. Does that not mean you could technically go in to a duel actively trying to get :-fate just to get more flips to heal from?

 

Yes, but those are not THAT easy to come by for any Master.

 

Ugh.. Why do you do these things?

 

Someone has to keep you on your toes, zfiend! If you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you.

[The Godlyness]

mind you Any rams flipped in the damage flip do not heal. making sure people dont misunderstand

[zFiend]

unless it was zFiend in which case it's perfectly acceptable 

 

Oi! Even I don't deserve the Gremlins!

[MasterDisaster]

Oi! Even I don't deserve the Gremlins!

 

Debatable 

[deValmont]

In all other circumstances the card that is cheated in completely replaces the card originally flipped, so I would say that you would only recognise the ram that was used in the chosen final card, whether after a multiple flip or a cheat. If you have a positive flip to attack you can't pick the number from one card and the suit from the other.

[zFiend]

In all other circumstances the card that is cheated in completely replaces the card originally flipped, so I would say that you would only recognise the ram that was used in the chosen final card, whether after a multiple flip or a cheat. If you have a positive flip to attack you can't pick the number from one card and the suit from the other.

 

Hm.. That is a really good point. 

[deValmont]

Hm.. That is a really good point. 

 

You know what they say about stopped clocks.

[zFiend]

Not sure though does the word "whenever" still mess that up?

[deValmont]

  I would say it doesn't. If a card is cheated in I would say that from that point on it 'becomes' the card flipped in the duel for all purposes. After a duel has been completed (However many flips are taken, then a card cheated in) there is always a card that is 'THE' card that represents the result of that duel. And that is the one that I would consider to be the Ram that would trigger Lucky Draw.

 

  As I said, this is my opinion but I would feel quite strongly if someone was to read it differently during a game. I try to never use lapses in careful wording or lack of explicitness in description as ways to gain advantage in a game and wouldn't like to play against someone who did (luckily in Malifaux that situation is very rare, despite all of the discussions about these cases on the forums!).

[Carse]

I would say that its any cards flipped not cheated because they are not the same and can't be used the same unless it says final duel total. An example of this being red jokers flipped prevent your opponent from cheating, but red jokers cheated do not. So you shouldn't claim cheated cards become the flipped cards they instead replace the flipped cards for final totals.

[Paddywhack]

I would agree with Devalmont.  Carse also ninja me to the RJ comment. The cheated card replaces the flipped card for the duel. I would also argue that you only get to use the chosen card, not all the cards that are flipped. From the small rulebook:

 

Bonus modifiers (+) force a model to flip additional cards and then provide the model with a choice of which card to use. Usually the highest card is chosen, but there are situations in which the model might wish to use a lower card, such as when a specific suit is desired.

 

and:

 

Once all cards are flipped, the model chooses one to use as its active card. A model flipping cards with one or more + chooses one of the flipped cards as the active card anddiscards the others to the Discard Pile.

 

If you could use the suit from any flipped card for these types of abilities, then why would they need the last part of the first bit? It would definitely seem overpowered to me and the Gremlins don't really need anymore help in that arena...

 

Lynch's ability according to the FAQ relates to aces that are put in the Discard pile - that ability is not tied directly to the flip (again, I'm going off the FAQ as I don't have the card). It is a different situation.

 

A: He can place any aces into his hand which ended up in the discard pile, regardless of whether they were cheated, discarded, flipped, etc. The language “When an ace from this Crew’s deck…” is simply meant to clarify that Jakob cannot place aces from his opponent’s deck into his hand.

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that your quotes reinforce the original interpretation.

"Lucky Draw: Whenever this model flips a Ram in a duel, it may immediately heal 1 damage."

 

 

Bonus modifiers (+) force a model to flip additional cards and then provide the model with a choice of which card to use. Usually the highest card is chosen, but there are situations in which the model might wish to use a lower card, such as when a specific suit is desired.

 

Once all cards are flipped, the model chooses one to use as its active card. A model flipping cards with one or more + chooses one of the flipped cards as the active card and discards the others to the Discard Pile.

Emphasis mine.

So the important part is the flip and you flip multiple cards.

 

If you could use the suit from any flipped card for these types of abilities, then why would they need the last part of the first bit? It would definitely seem overpowered to me and the Gremlins don't really need anymore help in that arena...

For the duel you have to choose one that remains but you did flip all the cards you flipped.

As for it being overpowered, it really, really isn't. Compared to the true powerhouse Effigies such as Brutal or Arcane or Shadow, this is peanuts. It would make it usable because otherwise it's "heal one damage for every four duels you perform" which is really lackluster.

[Paddywhack]

hmmm.. I can see your points. It still doesn't feel right, but I can see your arguement. I still think its a lot of free healing off a (0) action though and with gremlins getting to flip extra cards a lot (you youself say how much Ophelia can flip in one duel) it does seem a bit much. I am less certain now though.

 

And don't get me started on Effigies... I'm a resser and ours sucks.

[Rhonlore]

I'm going to advocate for stopping mid flip whenever a ram comes off the top of your deck. The ability does tell you to do it immediately.

If you are on a double positive and you flip Ram Tome Ram you would stop after each ram and heal before proceeding to the next step of the action.

[The Godlyness]

Why? All the cards are flipped at once. Also why stop heal stop? What interaction or effect does this play on the game?

[Rhonlore]

Flipping all at once and healing equal to the number of rams flipped is also acceptable to me. I was just trying to go to the most mechanical version.