Shot in the Rear...NPE? Whack with a Cuddle bat?

[Bodiless]

That would have helped, although at that point OM would have probably just climbed up on something for any turn where he needed to wipe out my scheme markers. This was a game where there was literally one scheme in the entire pool that was not marker based, so just about no price was too high for the ability to wipe out markers just by stopping next to them. Not to mention providing healing. 

[Malal]

I'll echo the sentiment that most masters are op the first few times you play against them. Math's right about the UK tournament scene, Ulix has had a few outings to some success but in no way dominates (not even "top tier" really).

 

Some pointers, it doesn't have to be terrain to block LoS, a height 3 model can do it too...if you're going to get a height 3 model up in Old Majors grill, make it one that can butcher him, pigs can't get LoS to him once he's off the table. 

You've got a big (height 3), incorporeal, terrifying beatstick...he's got no Ca attacks and his War Pigs are Wp 4.

His control of the pigs centres on the Gremlins and Penelope, kill them if you can but don't forget Beckoners can pull his herders out of position (hopefully still leaving them as the target for Set'er Off).

Some depleted might have helped you tarpit the pigs, plus when they die, set up the pigs with brilliance.

[admiralvorkraft]

Side point: I don't think that Ulix is unbeatable, there are no unbeatable builds in this game. That being said, Shot in the Rear is hands down the most efficient AP generating action in the game which seems wrong. I mean sure, Ulix is a support master, he supports pigs.

Lucius is a support master who supports minions, Lucius can generate 2AP for one, but will have to cheat or stone to make 1 of those AP useful. Colette can transfer her AP to other models but doesn't really generate more of it herself.

It DOES seem like a problem to me that Ulix can trivially hand out more AP than masters that are designed to do literally nothing else, and that AP can go to models that are much deadlier than any Guild minion. Yes he's limited in the kind of AP he can hand out, but those are the only actions you really want his big pigs taking anyway.

I don't know, seems screwed up.

[Bodiless]

I want to be clear, I don't think that Ulix is OP. He is a summoning master, he has synergy with pigs, that's all to the good. I'm fine with the notion of losing my first game against a master, although the flip side of that tends to be that the first time you use a master you don't know what you are doing and tend to get rolled. This was my opponent's second game with Ulix, and in his first the carnage was even worse. A reactivating Shot in the Rear Gracie essentially pac-manned its way through 50% of a Marcus beast crew in a single turn. 

 

What I do question is Corn Husks and Hunting Bow. Given how much of the game revolves around managing your AP resource, the ability to remove scheme markers without even spending a (0) interact anywhere within LoS of a Ht 3 model is extremely powerful. The ability to have 1 AP from your master turn into 4 or more attacks from a heavy hitting model like a War Pig is way, way outside the rest of the design envelope for that kind of ability. 

 

Edit: Perfectly ninja'd by Admiralvorkraft. Yes, exactly that.

[hypoking]

It DOES seem like a problem to me that Ulix can trivially hand out more AP than masters that are designed to do literally nothing else, and that AP can go to models that are much deadlier than any Guild minion. Yes he's limited in the kind of AP he can hand out, but those are the only actions you really want his big pigs taking anyway.

I don't know, seems screwed up.

Ulix is a support master though. He buffs the crap out of pigs, that's his bag. Its what he was, fairly transparently, designed to do. He happens to be a really damn good support system for his relatively narrow group of models. I will admit that it is kind of weird that how good he is in this particular weight class, but being better than Lucius at this job shouldn't be out of the picture. Grems on the whole really excel at ap multiplication, hell with Zoroida and Brewy there are almost as many obey effects flying around here as in nb.

[Bodiless]

But when you look at how many AP Zoraida and Brewy can give out, and then you look at Ulix, they aren't even in the same ballpark. 

[Malal]

They can both get 4 for 1 on Warpigs and Rooster riders on a charge with the trigger, what they can also do that Ulix can't is use those ap for other things and on opponents models

[hypoking]

Shot is specific both in what it can effect and what the model being effected can do. Obey and Binge don't have those limitations. Now you don't have to agree that the abilities are on the same precise spot in the power curve, and honestly I don't think they should have to be, but that is the reasoning.

 

Edit: Goddamnit malal

[Bodiless]

Those are both valid points, although I would then counter that Hunting Bow could target that same War Pig three times as opposed to once, or get the same effect out of Gracie and Old Major, etc etc. I think I will bow out of the discussion here though, since my primary purpose was just to add my experience to those of earlier posters for Justin et al. to consider, and they can run through these numbers just fine without my help.  

[Malal]

Obey can target the same pig/rooster, you obey it to take the tactical action Charge, therefore you can obey it again
 

or have I got that wrong?

[rgarbonzo]

For AP efficiency nothing beats Colette, for 2 AP I can have my whole crew just take a one action with no range or LoS needed. SITR needs a specific model at a specific distance (the range is 6"). 

[Bodiless]

Obey can target the same pig/rooster, you obey it to take the tactical action Charge, therefore you can obey it again

 

or have I got that wrong?

 

 

Obey: "A model which performed an Attack due to Obey may not be targeted by Obey again during the same activation." So since the charge attacks are due to being Obeyed the Pig/Rooster could not be targeted again.

[Vidd]

 

Those are both valid points, although I would then counter that Hunting Bow could target that same War Pig three times as opposed to once, or get the same effect out of Gracie and Old Major, etc etc. I think I will bow out of the discussion here though, since my primary purpose was just to add my experience to those of earlier posters for Justin et al. to consider, and they can run through these numbers just fine without my help.

Absolutely. You can target the same model three times (although it may be compelled to leave the 6" range) but there's a number of downsides compared to a typical Obey like Zoraida's.

 

You can't target an enemy, you can only declare charges, you require a   each time, you can only target pigs, it's got half the range of Obey and if the enemy's killed, the pig can rebound onto friendly models. I'm not saying it's a bad ability, however I don't think it's fair just to say he shouldn't be able to generate that sort of AP compared to other Masters. I'm aware that not everyone thinks that but it's a very specialised and specific kind of AP production.

 

 

In general, I think the Piggy list that Ulix relies has a number of perhaps unique downsides that people just aren't used to. Among the more obvious is that you basically have no shooting and the crew has to clump up by design or lose the effect of auras (and control of the pigs).

Someone earlier in the thread referenced the game's meta and I think that's very relevant. A number of games have had that faction or character which seems overpowered when introduced and then slowly creeps down the rankings as people become wise to their tricks and aware of their downsides. If he's not tearing up and dominating at higher levels of play, that's a good sign to me.

[Bengt]

For AP efficiency nothing beats Colette, for 2 AP I can have my whole crew just take a one action with no range or LoS needed. SITR needs a specific model at a specific distance (the range is 6"). 

To be fair that requires a certain amount of set up. And placing scheme markers as (0) actions do have a range and requires LoS. And if any of the scheme markers were placed using AP you are just using stored AP.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I have played with Ulix a lot, mostly on Vassal.

 

Shot in the Rear on the Sow is nice, but I only end up using it about half the games I play. It's a powerful area attack that can kill a bunch of fragile models in one go, but stops the first time it hits a really durable model. You can angle the charge to control this somewhat.

 

It's a nice ability, but it hasn't seemed overwhelming when I've played it.

[Bodiless]

Have you tried it with something like the Sow and a War Pig within range? I ask because last night the War Pig got shot, killed a Beckoner, then hit an Illuminated and stopped. For his second AP, Ulix shot Old Major, who charged and finished off the Illuminated, then pinballed into Lynch. At that point I think the War Pig was still in range and was eligible to be SitR again, which probably would have finished Lynch off. A durable model might survive one of the big pigs charging, but not much will survive two.

[Vidd]

I think this is sort of the problem with focusing so much on one game, not that I blame anyone since we're commenting on what's available. It's up to everyone to try out more Ulix so thanks Bodiless.

 

A Warpig being able to charge two separate models and still end up within Ulix's 6" SitR range seems out of the ordinary whether it's due to unfortunate placement or insufficient terrain. You don't want to be up in a War Pig's face regardless of who is leading the crew. A  is going to allow it to pinball anyway via its trigger.

I imagine a deathstar approach, surrounding Ulix with big pigs (and possibly Lenny) would seriously limit his area control on a good table. You're making yourself weaker to Lure and should have trouble locking down scheme runners.

 

 

 

Anyway, thanks Hateful Darkblack for actually trying him and posting your thoughts.

[admiralvorkraft]

I should say, I've never played against this list. I have played against a weird piglet-spamming Ulix list and it was fine, I lost by 2 points which isn't bad against a new master.

 

As far as my theory-faux goes SitR seems crazy good. But then, in my theoryfaux, Gremlins typically do just about everything better than me anyway whereas on the table it doesn't always play out that way.

[Bodiless]

I think this is sort of the problem with focusing so much on one game, not that I blame anyone since we're commenting on what's available. It's up to everyone to try out more Ulix so thanks Bodiless.

 

A Warpig being able to charge two separate models and still end up within Ulix's 6" SitR range seems out of the ordinary whether it's due to unfortunate placement or insufficient terrain. You don't want to be up in a War Pig's face regardless of who is leading the crew. A  is going to allow it to pinball anyway via its trigger.

I imagine a deathstar approach, surrounding Ulix with big pigs (and possibly Lenny) would seriously limit his area control on a good table. You're making yourself weaker to Lure and should have trouble locking down scheme runners.

 

 

 

Anyway, thanks Hateful Darkblack for actually trying him and posting your thoughts.

 

I could add that my opponent has played Ulix twice now and that his assessment of the pig synergy (which would be an awesome band name) is that it is nuts and that Hunting Bow is a pretty clear example of something that slipped through beta testing. So there is also that perspective.  

 

Since you brought up board control, the Ulix deathstar actually has more than you might think. For example, turn 1 he used multiple pushes and reactivate to send Gracie and Lenny two thirds of the way across the board to run down a Silurid. In order to avoid that pair my second Silurid had to move closer to the Ulix ball, and got gored to death by a stampeding War Pig. All of which was fine, I'm not crying foul or cuddle on any of those interactions, just pointing out that it has more board control than you might think.

[Adran]

As an alternative approach, have you considered enagaging the large pigs with your models. If they are engaged they can't charge.

It still looks like a good action, but there appear to  numerous counters, some of which may require you to change your play style a little (but hopefully not crew construction).

 

I've only faced Ulix once, and we we both just looking at the possibilities, so I don 't have much practical experience, but this is looking quite like a lot of threads, where there is a very powerful action, and then as people see it more and more, then can start to plan counters.

 

(and as an aside, whilst its not illegal to shot in the rear the same target more than once, I can't think of any occsions when you could do the same target 3 times, and only a few when you could shoot the same target more than once in an activation)

[Bodiless]

We are starting to drift a little towards tactica/battle reports, but as long as no one minds... I did indeed move to engage the big pigs. On turn 2, before Ulix activated, I rushed the clump around him with Hungering Darkness. Darkness had the return from the dead upgrade, so I wasn't concerned about losing him here. Which is good, because when Ulix activated he summoned a war pig, used Sooey (I think, not very familiar with Ulix) to pull all of the nearby summoned pigs close to Huggy (including the new war pig) and then Slopped Hungry. Everyone got a free shot at Hungry on positive flips, except for a piglet which failed Terrifying. The War Pig hit the Stampede trigger, which it used to charge away from Hungry into my Silurid. As far as I can tell basically none of his models were legal targets for charges by friendly pigs, so there were really no downsides to setting off free charges. Hungry went down under the scrum eventually, possibly to Old Major. Lynch brought him back out at the end of the turn, but the jam on Ulix was cleared

 

At the same time, the Amazing Reactivating Gracie had circumnavigated the board and was closing in on my other flank. I charged her with an Illuminated, did reasonable damage, and took reasonable damage in return. Whoever activated first on that side was going to live. On turn 3 I went first, and I activated the Illuminated to kill Gracie. Unfortunately his first activation was Ulix, and SitR killed my Beckoner, Illuminated, wounded Lynch, and left Lynch engaged with both the War Pig and Old Major. In hindsight I should have jammed with Hungry again, but that really would have just postponed my demise by a turn since I then would have had Gracie to deal with as well. 

 

Given that the strategy was Reconnoitre, which I no longer had any chance at scoring, and that my schemes were Breakthrough and Plant Evidence, which I also had no chance of scoring with both scheme runners dead and Corn Husks in play I conceded at that point. I should also mention that limiting the damage to just the Beckoner, Illuminated, and a wounded Lynch bled my hand dry and used up my stones, so there was really no point in playing out the turn. 

[MVBrandt]

I would just pop in here, as the guy who played Ulix, a lot of our reaction to the game was oriented around the newness of the play.

 

I've played Ulix three times now, including against an EXTREMELY good player running Levi with a TON of experience with Levi .. and won all 3. The Levi game was a lot dicier for his ability to use Ashes and Levi rather carelessly for long reach kills of big pigs. Regardless, some of the Ulix stuff seemed a little OTT. I have *no idea* what I'm really doing with him yet ... lots of missed opportunities and little careless mistakes and imperfect positioning and the like ... yet I've fairly handily run away with three games against three tough opponents fielding lists they've used a long time and know what they're doing.

 

I won't throw into too much game-specific tactical stuff, just wanted to say Bodiless isn't rolling out butt-hurt from a bad first game against a new master ... our thoughts were pretty similar about some of the unlimited ridiculousness of SitR (even preventing it from allowing Triggers would be something ... things like Gracie buffed by an Old Major push discarding a Ram are pretty powerful ... Ml6 pig working outside of its activation, with an activation and reactivation still to go, charging things and flinging 4/6/8 damage track on every hit due to the Ram no matter what til end of turn).