Jump to content

Shot in the Rear...NPE? Whack with a Cuddle bat?


Iron Heel

Recommended Posts

In a topic on The Sow, it has been noted that Ulix Shot in the Rear ability from the his Huntin' Bow could lead to NPEs.

I really like Ulix's concept, but have not played or faced him and want to hear from those who have.

 

It would seem to me that the fact you have to still hit and damage would lead to a natural end to the sore-booty-rampage inspired by this ability...what has been your experience?  (Note: this is distinguished from your inference.)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't faced it, I don know it has taken the last few tournaments. But from what I've heard, it wasn't a one sided massacre either, but everyone that has faced it always comments on how the infinite charge or Ulix taking down scheme markers like if they were nothing is quite distressing. I still have it in my to do list to face Ulix though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I noted my experience on The Sow Page. In 1AP of Ulix he caused the Sow to charge turn 1, which killed one full healed Illuminated, charged and killed a second, charged and killed a Black Blood Shaman. So 1AP led to 21 points gone.

As I said there though, it was entertaining as hell to watch, but I felt the bonus charges were not balanced for the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will copy my post in that thread here, as I feel like this is where it should be best discussed :

That's one of those things that probably passed the cut just because Gremlins got the less testing during the beta... And I feel like there are a few more within Ulix's range of preferred models, like the awful combination of Corn Husks and the Pigapult. Hell the whole lot around the Pigapult is borderline nasty!

I couldn't really believe it when I first faced Corn Husks. Unlimited range with just the requisite of LoS to a Ht3 model is plain wrong on those two Abilities. Combine it with the stúpid mobility the Pigapult gives, and then you see 3 flying Piglets removing 3 of your Scheme Markers most anywhere on the table without even having to Flip one Card, and with the opponent unable to do most anything to avoid it (not even engaging the Pigapult, as it is extremely easy to disengage it on an Ulix's Crew).

Then you have that (0) Interaction that not only turns the Crew into a Scheme factory, but also allows for an extremely easy warpig summoning (combined with the lot and easy of healing Gremlins' got at their disposal).

I dunno, I know that every time I play against it all I'm closer to beat it, but still some on that Gremlins stuff smells like a bit unfair to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I noted my experience on The Sow Page. In 1AP of Ulix he caused the Sow to charge turn 1, which killed one full healed Illuminated, charged and killed a second, charged and killed a Black Blood Shaman. So 1AP led to 21 points gone.

As I said there though, it was entertaining as hell to watch, but I felt the bonus charges were not balanced for the game.

 

I like that Ulix has some powerful tools, but I think that they should come with a cost.  Even if he had to discard a card to keep it going...at least that would be something.

I am really interested to play Ulix and will probably do so for the first time next week.  I was going to give the bow a whirl and see it in action for myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's one of those things that probably passed the cut just because Gremlins got the less testing during the beta... And I feel like there are a few more within Ulix's range of preferred models, like the awful combination of Corn Husks and the Pigapult. Hell the whole lot around the Pigapult is borderline nasty!

I dont know if I really agree with the whole "Gremlins got the less testing during the beta". I think it might be more that some things were trivialized during beta (both open and closed) by vocal groups.

 

If it is substantially out of proportion then we may see an adjustment via FAQ/ Errata in two months time or more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't buy that it's OP, last game rasputina hit gracey, Lenny and Ophelia with two (just two) overpowered spells knocking them to 2 wounds, had she not had to move her third overpowered spell combo would have killed 22 points AND a master all that in one single activation through a gamen from like 18 inches away.

Face it, every master has synergy with their troops, if you are caught in exactly the right circumstances any master can kill or basically end your game in a single activation. Ulix is no different, no better no worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

\

 

I don't buy that it's OP, last game rasputina hit gracey, Lenny and Ophelia with two (just two) overpowered spells knocking them to 2 wounds, had she not had to move her third overpowered spell combo would have killed 22 points AND a master all that in one single activation through a gamen from like 18 inches away.

Face it, every master has synergy with their troops, if you are caught in exactly the right circumstances any master can kill or basically end your game in a single activation. Ulix is no different, no better no worse.

 

The question isn't really are there are tools which can lead to 'alpha strike' situations within a normal game, but rather are there issues mechanically that can lead to a consistent negative play experience. 

 

Now, I primarily use Ulix in my games as I really like the degree of "fluffy" synergy that his crew can provide, however I am also extremely conscientious of potential NPEs that can arise, so I like to think I can see this from both sides. Ulix has some great tools at his disposal, though I can sympathize with those who feel they are in need of some tweaking. 

 

When he first hit the beta we discovered right off the bat that corn husks was absolutely nuts. My community has discussed at lengths ways in which this might be mitigated, such as making the ability to eat an enemy scheme marker be an interact action that they heal from and can do from a range, or upping the cost by 1 SS. I love the ability to have a (0) interact on a 4ss model, however it does make summoning a warpig turn one rather trivial. Making the scheme marker removal an action would at least reduce the shenanigans with the pigapult. Another solution could be to make it an aura ability of say 12 inches? Line of sight on a ht 3 model is a bit lenient I'll admit. 

 

The hunting bow's shot in the rear has the potential to get out of control very quickly what with the insane 11" threat range on the sow and her 3/5/6 damage spread. However, I think some of the balance of 'shot in the rear' comes from the pigs' normal tendency to go nuts and charge random targets, as they must charge the closest legal target. The flip side of this then becomes that Old Major prevents pigs from becoming legal targets, so most Ulix lists, you only run the risk of the sow charging Ulix or potentially a slop hauler. Don't really have a solid solution for this one. Personally, I've had a mixed experience with this upgrade. It does require a 6 of rams (oh no!) which considering Ulix and his entire crew really want rams and crows could be a set back, but perhaps Sezar's suggestion of burning a card to take the next charge, or maybe the charging pig takes a point of damage. 

 

I've rambled enough as it is, but I'd love to hear more of what you have found in your own communities regarding Ulix's toolkit as a whole. I think he has a great bag of tricks; (out of activation moves and attacks, scheme manipulation, summoning and heals) but if players are turned off from the gaming experience as a whole due to any of these particular components, it could warrant some mention. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So why just target ulix? Don't the doxies need a cuddle? Tara burry then attack you while burried kills fun too, isn't that worthy? How about when you bring Wong and the other guy announces freekorps that ends up no fun for the wong player, better just give em +1 armor vs blasts n auras rather than immunity....

I dunno seems to me every time somebody loses a game they thought they shouldn't have lost, I'm hearing cuddle!!! CUDDLE!!! on the forums. I wasn't in the beta but I heard gremlins already got hit pretty hard.

I'm watching the Kang/Yan-lo combo dominate almost every other game at my FLGS, meanwhie ulix isn't even out yet and already people are crying OP!!!

I think people just need to relax.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did fight the friekorp with Wong and won I might add. Wong made it across the board and killed Hans some bugs Ted up vonsholl long enough that I won on vp and a magical Burt killed Hannah and specialist and a fman. Cause ignoring armor 3 ap and dual attack. So fighting pigs I guess is on my list of things to do I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So why just target ulix? Don't the doxies need a Cuddle? Tara burry then attack you while burried kills fun too, isn't that worthy? How about when you bring Wong and the other guy announces freekorps that ends up no fun for the wong player, better just give em +1 armor vs blasts n auras rather than immunity....

I dunno seems to me every time somebody loses a game they thought they shouldn't have lost, I'm hearing Cuddle!!! CUDDLE!!! on the forums. I wasn't in the beta but I heard gremlins already got hit pretty hard.

I'm watching the Kang/Yan-lo combo dominate almost every other game at my FLGS, meanwhie ulix isn't even out yet and already people are crying OP!!!

I think people just need to relax.

Nobody is "just targeting Ulix". He is being discussed in this particular thread because the OP posted a thread about Ulix. You should feel more than encouraged to start your own thread about any of your aforementioned points if you feel that they are NPEs.

As for sour grapes I'm not seeing a single comment here from anyone that has played against Ulix and lost and thinks that is unfair. It seems to be people that have not played against it and are curious or those that have played it themselves and their thoughts / concerns. 

Not a single individual here is crying for a cuddle bat: it is simply a discussion and one that we should all feel empowered to have.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm watching the Kang/Yan-lo combo dominate almost every other game at my FLGS, meanwhie ulix isn't even out yet and already people are crying OP!!!

Wait what? Not seeing anything on these two on the forums. Don't have the cards in front of me but don't recall what these two might do for one another aside from heal a staggering number of wounds in a single turn. Is there something I'm missing?

On topic, I think Ulix/Sow combo could be really scary against hordey crews with little ranged support, with the Sow pacman-ing her way through the crew. Aside from that it seems like either shoving something tanky in the Sow's way or shooting it down to half wounds would both dismantle this nicely.

I think one of my locals bought a bunch of toy pigs though, so I'll likely see something like this soon enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

necroon- did you read the comments of the people who posted,  "I'm not seeing a single comment here from anyone that has played against Ulix and lost and thinks that is unfair"   Really? Asrian: "I noted my experience on The Sow Page.So 1AP led to 21 points gone. As I said there though, it was entertaining as hell to watch, but I felt the bonus charges were not balanced for the game."  sounds like he played against ulix and thought it was unfair.  as for crying for the cuddle bat... read the title of this thread again, the thread is debating the need for a cuddle bat.  

 

Others-  to look at comparable abilities... I've seen Killjoy take out 21 points in an activation, I've seen Coraphyee duet (under Colette), Bette Noir, teddy, laz (under ramos), and a few other super high damage enforcers in the right circumstances do similar.  As far as the masters go, Perditia, Ophelia, Wong, Rasputina, Levi, the Vics,  can all alpha strike 21 points in a single activation ... but Ulix isn't a uber-damage dealing master, he's purely support, nothing he can do solo can come close to matching what those masters do in an activation without a model like The Sow and the use of AP. Where is exactly is the unbalance in comparison with the other master's combat abilities?     

 

​If the argument is against scheme marker manipulation with Corn Husks... is it really sooooo much worse than what Colette (probably the best comparison support master) can do with marker manipulation?

 

and to "easy" summon a war pig, (SEZAR) Ulix needs 3 scheme markers and does 4 damage to himself and the war pig to pull it off... Ramos to summon a spider swarm... needs one scrap (which he can create with electrical creation summoning), one high card,  and a single AP and when they combine in the next round they are at full health (if I remember right)... how is Ulix's "send myself half way to death" summoning more needing a cuddle than that? Why should Ulix have to sacrifice 3 cards or 3 AP from near by pigs in addition to pull off what Ramos does without suffering a point of damage and having a full health model? (also the LOS is a huge deal if your opponent isn't stupid enough to put his scheme markers out in the open where anyone can draw LOS to The Major or Ulix, and remember those piglets are coming in paralyzed, and pretty easy to pick off with the two turns you likely have to get to em before they can remove markers, the "its too easy" argument fails a lot considering all those disadvantages. )

 

Godlyness- I expect the freekorps player to come out with the "wong is soooo OP!" thread any day now then...  

 

Clement- Kang is a killy beast that's very hard to take down, and even if you do Yan-Lo just brings him back... its a pretty damn tough combo. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Clement- Kang is a killy beast that's very hard to take down, and even if you do Yan-Lo just brings him back... its a pretty damn tough combo. 

You probably mean Izamu and he dies to a stiff wind with anything that ignores Armor, if he doesn't, you will need to focus on him, no denying it. Also, remember he gets resummoned at half wounds and Yan Lo is made out of taffy until he ascends. Basically, you go for the old man fast and hard and that solves a lot of problems before they surface, since a doped up Yan Lo is a very scary thing.

 

As for the rest, it's voicing CONCERS, that you don't like my concerns doesn't mean I'll shut up about them. Yes, Colette does scheme marker manipulation like nobody's bussiness, but it's kind of her thing and she does not summon nor does she generate a train of hate. I have only faced Ulix once and trounced him, but his luck wasn't too steelar, wasn't using the bow and the pigapult. I still have to face the local top player who uses it to get a real feel of the swineherd.

 

If you are so full of concerns on the other side, I invite you to make all the threads you deem necessary to talk about those issues, this is the thread called "Shot in the Rear - NPE whack with a cuddle bat?" so of course we will talk about Ulix. Feel that Izamu and Yan Lo is too much? I invite you to go to the Resser and 10 Thunders sections and explain why it is so dominating.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you are so full of concerns on the other side, I invite you to make all the threads you deem necessary to talk about those issues, this is the thread called "Shot in the Rear - NPE whack with a cuddle bat?" so of course we will talk about Ulix. Feel that Izamu and Yan Lo is too much? I invite you to go to the Resser and 10 Thunders sections and explain why it is so dominating.

I believe that his point is that there are lots of things that are just as bad as Ulix and the Sow and if we

nεrf that combo then we should be nεerfing a whole lot thus changing the whole balance expectation of M2e, which is silly.

Now whether he is right or wrong, I don't know, but it is a fair point and won't be solved by posting other threads calling a nεrf of some other thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that his point is that there are lots of things that are just as bad as Ulix and the Sow and if we

nεrf that combo then we should be nεerfing a whole lot thus changing the whole balance expectation of M2e, which is silly.

Now whether he is right or wrong, I don't know, but it is a fair point and won't be solved by posting other threads calling a nεrf of some other thing.

So I assume nobody should have posted anything about the Mechanical Rider I guess?

 

Maybe it isn't worth Cuddling at all, but not discussing the possibility outright seems completely pointless to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly Math, the only way to determine IF ulix or the Sow, or an upgrade needs a cuddle is with the comparison of other similar abilities of other models, not from the bad experiences of a couple of players before the models are even released to the public. that's why I started off saying, its just too soon to even rationally discuss the issue.  

 

as to Colette not being a train of hate... your right, she's an unhittable rage train of utter destruction... you REALLY need to read this post on her... http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/100241-colette-%E2%80%93-the-adepticon-almost-master-of-malifaux-crew-creation/ 

 

3 pts for line, and nothing can come within 10 inc of center board without getting dead dead dead on turn 1, AND she can pull all those models that just wacked killjoy in a single activation back into complete cover before you can take a swing at them... its just sick... (cant wait till her plastic box comes out) 

 

Its reading posts like that, that really make me ask "how is anything Ulix is doing worse than that?" 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly Math, the only way to determine IF ulix or the Sow, or an upgrade needs a cuddle is with the comparison of other similar abilities of other models, not from the bad experiences of a couple of players before the models are even released to the public. that's why I started off saying, its just too soon to even rationally discuss the issue.  

 

as to Colette not being a train of hate... your right, she's an unhittable rage train of utter destruction... you REALLY need to read this post on her... http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/100241-colette-%E2%80%93-the-adepticon-almost-master-of-malifaux-crew-creation/ 

 

3 pts for line, and nothing can come within 10 inc of center board without getting dead dead dead on turn 1, AND she can pull all those models that just wacked killjoy in a single activation back into complete cover before you can take a swing at them... its just sick... (cant wait till her plastic box comes out) 

 

Its reading posts like that, that really make me ask "how is anything Ulix is doing worse than that?" 

OK, so you counter the people in this thread bringing bad experiences by linking to another thread with bad experiences, got it.

 

I get it, you don't like your toys being targettes specially when you don't see any issue, I get flustered too when people claim things I don't see an issue about are too powerful. But that I don't see an issue does not mean that there isn't AN issue, that's the reason why you can comment on why you feel something is too insane too instead of just saying "anecdotical!" while referencing other anecdotical situations to "compare how he ain't so bad". Anecdotical is ALL we have, this is a game with too many variables, of course we can only speak from anecdote. I still remember that there were a lot of people syaing the Mechanical Rider was fine in the big thread talking about it because "X and Y can do Z!", well, at the end of the day, it seems like it wasn't that fine, or at leats not by the guy that writes the rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I assume nobody should have posted anything about the Mechanical Rider I guess?

With Mechanical Rider there were two view points: that it should be nεrfed and that it is fine. The former prevailed (and I was on that side, though I think that it is still at the top end of the power curve) but the latter opinion was valid as well.

Maybe it isn't worth Cuddling at all, but not discussing the possibility outright seems completely pointless to me.

I think that you are simply talking past one another a bit here. To me it seems that Baalbamoth is simply saying that he doesn't think that the Sow is over the top. That it is comparable to other powerful stuff that there is. Which is a valid opinion, though, naturally, disagreeing with it is valid as well.

And I wish to stress that I really, really respect your opinions (you are, in fact, one of the posters whose posts I always pay keen attention to) so I wish to in no way say that your posts aren't welcome or anything. Just that I feel that you are talking a bit past each other.

Hope I'm making sense :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well I guess thats it boys, Sherloc over here figured out our whole dastardly plan... 

 

what bad expirences? ya read that thread, and the one where he goes over what happened in each of those adepticon games (including a game where he did nothing but flee elites and killed no models the whole game, lol his opponent said it "was like trying to nail down jello"), and you find it was an awesome time had by all, not to say his strategy isnt hawesome, it absolutely is, it's brilliant, but the key in all of this is one guy might see Collette as totally overpowered, another might see her as weak and ineffectual, bottom line is how big is the pool of people were polling from and how many games are their opinions based on? this is called "playtesting" and its a heck of a lot more accurate (I would hope) than random opinions on a forum. Colette isnt a very easy master to use, one big screw up can cost you the game, I very seriously doubt many people would call her one of the top tier masters, and yet very difficult strats like that do exist but it doesn't mean they are OP.  

 

I don't have a problem with discussion but "should this get the cuddle bat or not?" immediately puts people who don't like the abilities on the offensive, and people who do on the defensive. its begging for gross conjecture. Ofc I dont wanna see models I want to get but cant even buy yet targeted on threads like that.  

 

Then on that topic where Wyrd is taking an interest and reading postings where a very average ability (in comparison to other masters) is being called "Distressing" "Unfair" "just plain wrong" and solutions like "make em discard! make em take damage for charging! Cuddle the other models they have synergy with! are being offered... yeah I'm gonna call foul on all of that and point out all the ways those opinions are based on very little experience, almost none really, and aren't really based in reason. and yes Mr Detective, I will do that because I don't want my toys to be targets based on flimsy random anecdotal forum opinions. your absolutely correct. 

 

math- what do you mean when you say "we are talking past" one another... not getting it... I think we both feel pretty strongly about our opinions, but heh really its just a game. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

necroon- did you read the comments of the people who posted, "I'm not seeing a single comment here from anyone that has played against Ulix and lost and thinks that is unfair" Really? Asrian: "I noted my experience on The Sow Page.So 1AP led to 21 points gone. As I said there though, it was entertaining as hell to watch, but I felt the bonus charges were not balanced for the game." sounds like he played against ulix and thought it was unfair. as for crying for the cuddle bat... read the title of this thread again, the thread is debating the need for a cuddle bat.

I did and they seemed like nothing more than people stating their experiences. I don't see that being the sameas people complaining that they lost. The keyword here is "feel". Yes the title may be a bit misleading but it's a question: not a statement. Read the first post again. I'm not sure people here are as many pages apart than they think.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

math- what do you mean when you say "we are talking past" one another... not getting it... I think we both feel pretty strongly about our opinions, but heh really its just a game.

I think that neither of you is trying to shut the conversation down or trying to say that this conversation shouldn't happen. You just have a different opinion on the matter at hand than Razhem.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that neither of you is trying to shut the conversation down or trying to say that this conversation shouldn't happen. You just have a different opinion on the matter at hand than Razhem.

 

I think they both have very good and valid points, it's a good conversation :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will attempt not to derail this to make a pull my finger tactics page, but I feel that it is worth mentioning some of the major flaws in the object in question when deciding whether it is worth cuddling. I see a giving something a nice snuggly cuddle only as a last resort when next to nothing is able to be used effectively against it, but Ulix has plenty of soft counters at least. 

 

First: Corn Husks. If you see corn husks, it is most likely on Old Major for the extra height. If Ulix dropping scheme markers with piglets or him removing yours is going to be a problem, kill Old Major. He's 12 wounds with hard to wound, but that is it. He is a large target, difficult to defend, and as with anything else will die with a little bit of focus. 

 

Second: Gremlins in general are weak to willpower duels. On the whole, the pigs range from below average to horrible when it comes to at least one of their defensive stats. Neverborn and Resser players can have an absolute field day in paralyzing models as the Ulix player cheats a 10 or higher to distract the Rouge Necromancy (sorry anecdotal, but nevertheless hilarious)

 

Third: Develop a counter strategy. Sorry, that one is a "duh" but I find it especially hard to be sneaky with my Ulix lists. "You brought corn husks, husbandry, 3 piglets to start and we have breakthrough, alits, and plant evidence in a turf war. I REALLY wonder how you plan on playing this game out" (hypothetically sarcasm)

 

My point simply being, you can really cast a light to most Ulix lists. If you DO see that Pigapult roll out onto the corner, then you have to know that getting rid of it (or Old Major if he has corn husks) will be a major priority, but it will be worth every AP you spend in getting rid of. Or if the sow has potential to rampage off small squishy models you have, keep a high card just enough to stop one of her two charge attacks, keep your model alive and 'shot in the rear' will end then and there.

 

I won't deny Ulix can be incredibly efficient, but untouchable he is not. Play smart, stay thirsty my friends, and for the love of God HAVE FUN!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information