Young Nephilim Ram Triggers

[Oz - Rampage Games]

Hi All,

 

Bit of a crazy one came up tonight....Young Nephilim (1) attack has a RAM trigger that says after damaing, take this action against the same target again.

 

As it does not say, the second action cannot declare triggers can this just keep going if i can cheat in rams and hurt him?

 

Newish Player (6 or so game in so please be gentle with any potential trolling)

Thanks

[Darryl.Lademan]

Yep it sure can

[Oz - Rampage Games]

That is fricking awesome....i was very lucky with my flips in all fairness..not bad for my first neverborn game, didnt get to use the grow ability though which was a shame as barbaros bit the end to quick

[Uktena]

Using the same trigger twice in a row gives a model trigger sickness. It counts as being over-significant for encounter purposes

[Darryl.Lademan]

The Blessed of December has a similar ability and it always goes mental when i fighting against it

[Joel]

Silurids can also do this - something many people forget about.

[MasterDisaster]

I've seen this trigger go off a bunch of times generating 5 attacks in a row for 1AP then another 2 for the 2nd AP. It can be really really nasty if your opponent is lucky enough to get the flips and has a few decent rams in their hand. 

[zFiend]

And Santiago.. Damn Santiago.

[Durza]

Mature Nephilim also have an infinite trigger, it stops the attack from doing damage but pushes the target, and then you charge something else.

[Adran]

If you face a model with an "infinite" trigger, its well worth saving a high card for df to break the chain when they are hitting with a low correctly suited card.

But yes, there are a few models in the game that can  trigger into a new action, whihc can also trigger a new action and so on.

 

Luck really plays a part in the powerr of these models, and you'll often find they either do amazingly, or rubbish, depending how many times you get the trigger to work

[StaticVortex]

Mature Nephilim also have an infinite trigger, it stops the attack from doing damage but pushes the target, and then you charge something else.

I have used this to great effect through 4 attacks that ultimately led to only a few wounds being given to one model...however both models ending up notably out of position and unable to be utilized by Rasputina.  

[daemonkin]

Mature Neph was able to charge a model that I could see, push it and then charge a model that I wanted to be the target all along but couldn't draw LOS to.

 

D.

[Sybaris]

The Young's power is difficult to evaluate because of its triggers...and that may be a reason for misjudgement from your opponent, wether they overestimate or underestimate the model, it's difficult to choose the correct dose of aggression. They melt really fast, but they can hit back pretty good, and displace a model out of position. 

 

The thing with the Young is that even the player doesn't know how they will perform...they're a threat, but most of it is made of potential rather than brutal brawler like the Mature, or a serious annoyance like the Tot. Bottom line they're fun to bring on the table, without basing a plan on their performance.

[Bodiless]

The Young's power is difficult to evaluate because of its triggers...and that may be a reason for misjudgement from your opponent, wether they overestimate or underestimate the model, it's difficult to choose the correct dose of aggression. They melt really fast, but they can hit back pretty good, and displace a model out of position. 

 

The thing with the Young is that even the player doesn't know how they will perform...they're a threat, but most of it is made of potential rather than brutal brawler like the Mature, or a serious annoyance like the Tot. Bottom line they're fun to bring on the table, without basing a plan on their performance.

 

Given that you can't base a plan on them, how often do people actually bring them then? Part of the point of Malifaux list design is that you can pick exactly the models you need for the task at hand. In the one game I used Young Neph (the two from the Neph box) I was massively, comprehensively underwhelmed by them. Until I build a dedicated grow list I doubt they will see the table again. At which point there will be a clear plan for what they are there to do, which doesn't count on lucking into their triggers. Just curious if other people also see them that way, or if they have a solid role other than growth targets.

[cdhay]

With fly they are pretty good as killy scheme runners and should be more than enough for catching and killing enemy scheme runners. But tots are pretty solid and faster so not too sure about them. I must admit I feel the same as you and first started out playing them with Lilith but after a few games started to look elsewhere. For the same points you can get waldgheists. No brainer in my opinion if you are taking fast tots too for mobility

[StaticVortex]

Given that you can't base a plan on them, how often do people actually bring them then? Part of the point of Malifaux list design is that you can pick exactly the models you need for the task at hand. In the one game I used Young Neph (the two from the Neph box) I was massively, comprehensively underwhelmed by them. Until I build a dedicated grow list I doubt they will see the table again. At which point there will be a clear plan for what they are there to do, which doesn't count on lucking into their triggers. Just curious if other people also see them that way, or if they have a solid role other than growth targets.

I like to run them in pairs, 12SS with fair mobility and a bit of staying power between Thirst for Blood and Feast can be quite helpful. 

 

I tend to see this happen: my opponent looks at my list and makes the following assumptions...

Tot (objective runner)

Young (interference piece and maybe backup objective runner)

Mature (muscle)  Or Barnabas...depending on the list

 

Seeing I don't have growth in my list, they spend resources to target the Mature as the biggest threat aside from Lilith herself, and try to disrupt the Tots from running around with all their speed, tending to ignore the middle child as neither a notable threat, nor particularly concerned about potential objective placement.  That is...until I throw a pair of them at a model, using a single attack and trigger the push to position the second model for a charge that tends to result in one of them obtaining fast before long and the tag team is off to target another model.

 

I still find this an effective strategy...even with my local meta knowing how I tend to use them.

[Sybaris]

Well, their flaw is also their forte. You can't let a duo of Young Neph roam around unimpaired in your backyard, and at the same time you can't fire all guns towards them, because they are not the biggest threat. While they are definitely not on the same killing level of the Mature, and not as consistantly useful as the tots, they are a chaotic threat...and in some situation, a little bit of chaos is all you need for Lilith and co. to break the enemy's plans.

 

In my opinion, Waldegeist give better bang for the buck if you look for utility, and the illuminated are quite the shock troops...but for skirmishing offense, they're ok. Flying means they don't have to go direct route and the opponent has to keep an eye on them anyway. This helps them engage shooters that would kill them on the way in.

 

They have serious shortcomings, however. They are subpar objective runners compared to tots, which is ok but something to keep in mind when growing. Their resilience is in the bottom pit of the crew...seriously they melt with little effort, and opponents have access to models that trump them quite alot. Armor is a bane to them, in particular, as are any reactive triggers. Guild Austringers are the bane of Youngs. Df 5 wound 7 vs focused Cb 7 with no cover or LoS? 

 

My wife finds them annoying facehuggers; black blood will almost inevitably add to the damage they do, meaning it's pretty rare to come out of melee vs Youngs unscathed. As with most Nephilims...if shit hits the fan...you can always just hug it and black blood it down before you fall...hoping it'll be enough for the rest of the swarm to take advantage of it. Not always worth the trade, but better than nothing.

[Myth]

Yeah, I almost always find myself with better options than Young Nephs. They are certainly fast and killy! But not quite enough in either department to actually feel a reliable threat. Now, how much of a threat should a model be for 6 SS? That's a good question - but if I take a Waldgeist, I know I'm getting a solid utility tank for the points. If I take a Tot, I know I'm getting some objective runners. With Young Nephs, they might make it to combat, where they might trigger a blood frenzy and shred the enemy - or they might, instead, run into something and plink it several times for weak damage. Or they might get blasted from across the field - or spend their turn running close enough to be a threat for next turn, and get counter-charged in the process.

 

I keep wanting to find a way to make them work - the Nephilim Growth list was what drew me to Neverborn in the first place - but while there are a lot of individually cool Nephilim models and uses in M2E, they are hard to make work as a whole, and without that unified list, the Young seem the Nephilim model most likely to fall through the cracks and find themselves without a good home.

[Hunter-thom]

Is anyone having good times growing them. Or is the grow list almost gone for good

What is a standard Lilith list look like these days

[asrian]

Is anyone having good times growing them. Or is the grow list almost gone for good

What is a standard Lilith list look like these days

I can speak for others, but I don't use grow lists. That's a personal preference with the crew, but I don't care to spend SS for optimize a crew for a grow list, then to spend (concentrate) my AP during the game to see it happen. I'd rather just get a crew who will get the job done straight away, and move on. *Shrugs*

[Hunter-thom]

So what does your standard list look like these days?

[Sybaris]

To be honest, i don't focus on growth even though i play with Nephilim very frequently (themed crews). Grow requires alot of energy to get going and it comes at the cost of tactical flexibility, plus growing tots into youngs isn't always the best course of action when it comes to scoring vp, even if you technically get more muscle in the process. Growing a Young is so difficult that the opportunity rarely comes up at all (at least in my games).

 

The core of my crew consists of 3 Tots, a Mature and Nekima. The rest varies as i feel, either Youngs or Waldegeist...or some wild card model that i fancy at the time.

[Uktena]

Agreed.  Hard not to take Tots.  Do you tend to use the Cherub or the Essence of Malifaux?

[Sybaris]

I rarely take totems, except when Zoraida brings in a Voodoo Doll. It's not  that they aren't effective, really...but i try to bring as many models as possible (that can fight or interact), given Nephilims die so quickly when focused, that extra model i can squeeze in may be all i need to complete a scheme or score on strategy. At least it's how it see it, i don't go heavy on upgrades either, for the same reason.