Help with Dreamer

[Ikvar]

I know there are already another thread asking for help with the Dreamer, but seeing as that was directed at one type of build with him, and my question is more generel, I thought it would be okay to start a new one

 

So I just had my first game with the Dreamer... and I got absolutely destroyed ^^

 

I took this crew seeing as we were playing Reckoning:

 

Neverborn Crew - 50 - Scrap

 

The Dreamer -- 2 Pool

 +Restless Dreams [1]

 +Tantrum [2]

 

Daydream [2]

Coppelius [8]

 +On Dreaming Wings [2]

Insidious Madness [5]

Teddy [11]

Teddy [11]

Widow Weaver [8]

 

And I think this was his crew(cant remember all his upgrades for Pandora):

 

Neverborn Crew - 50 - Scrap

 

Pandora -- 7 Pool

 +Fears Given Form [1]

 

Poltergeist [5]

Baby Kade [7]

Candy [9]

 +Fears Given Form [1]

Teddy [11]

Teddy [11]

 

Coppelius was pretty much useless, and I get a feeling you should only take him if you know your enemy were to bring some smaller and more fragile models for him to backstab. I also had a lot of problems with how I should position Widow Weaver... and the Alps I had summoned got completely destroyed as soon as Pandora got close to them.

 

Sooo what would you guys have done in my situation?

- was it simply a bad crew I had taken against her?

and how would you move your figures etc in the first couple of rounds?

 

 

[Tigerstyle]

What was the scheme pool?

[Wence]

Without some additional information, it's hard to critique you based solely on the army lists.  Your opponent's crew looks like a tough match-up for Reckoning, but knowing the schemes would help out a lot, since the strategy is less than half the VP.  I don't think Pandora is a particularly bad opponent for the Dreamer (in most cases, I'd say the Dreamer is generally bad news for her), since his models can diminish enemy Wp, which is what she relies on.  Fears Given Form is going to present a lot of problems, especially in Reckoning though, so learning how to position and avoid the traps Pandora can set up to force tough decisions on card management is key.  Again, without any idea of what the table set up looked like, or how you both deployed and went about things, it's tough to give specific advice.  Generally though, keep in mind Pandora's ability to push 4" when someone fails an opposed Wp duel with her.  Depending on schemes, I would have tried to set a trap and dictate the primary engagement area, lying down a couple web markers with the Widow Weaver, and preparing to scoot a Daydream or two in range when she approaches too.  If you can lower her Wp by a few points, suddenly Pandora is a lot more vulnerable.  The trick would be to avoid activating models in her or Candy's range as much as possible (thankfully, it doesn't look like he took Pandora's Terrifying (All) 13 upgrade).  If you can then drop an Alp and bring Coppelius and/or Insidious Madness in to force their own Wp duels with his crew's stat diminished, then you would likely severely hamper them.

 

The Dreamer excels at out-activating his opponent, even without the Dreams of Pain upgrade (summoning Daydreams & Alps), and getting extra mileage out of his heavy hitters.  He can also use his crew's Wp debuffs to paralyze key opposing models with Twist Reality's crow trigger.  The Stitched Together can similarly benefit from Wp decreases to make Gamble Your Life a lot more likely to succeed.  The Dreamer's army is a lot of moving parts that you should be utilizing to make sure your important models are always where you need them.  Also, don't forget you can often summon Daydreams & Alps into the position they need to be at to decrease Wp/ force Slow flips.

 

As for Coppelius, he can be amazing, but requires a lot of finesse to maximize his usefulness.  His Slow pulse can be devastating if he's around Daydreams and web markers; even more so if there are Alps nearby.  He's also very fast, and can get after your opponent's scheme runners.  Once he gets a few eyeballs, his Df goes from so-so to very good, and he can then also use them tactically to heal or puke Alps.  You just have to be careful to pick your fights.

 

To me, 2 Teddy models in a crew is excessive.  It's your preference, but I find while 1 can be OK in the right circumstances, dropping 22 points for 2 is just too much.  If you're not going the Dreams of Pain route, consider hiring Lilitu, as Lure is often a game winner, and her 4" Ml range is amazing (plus she regens in addition to Pleasant Dreams).  If you're going after Wp debuffs, Iggy can work very well with the Dreamer too, and also Illuminated are worth a serious look in his crew.  While some abilities require Nightmares, others, like Empty Night, can be used on Minions as well.

 

Again, if you have a more specific question, post it, as there are a lot of very good Dreamer players on these boards.  The only time I ever feel disadvantaged with him is against a quality Rasputina, Sonnia or Wong player.

[StaticVortex]

I too struggle with my positioning of Widow Weaver, and I believe it is biasing me against taking her when I should.  Against Pandora, you deffinately want her web markers out and about to help fight against her WP shenanigans.  Still, I would have likely left her at home and taken Baby Kade in her stead...his lure would be rather helpful to disrupt oponents movement plans and he can quickly jump to the Teddy of his choice and try for some fun Teddy on Teddy action. 

 

I have not tried out a pair of Teddies, yet, becaues of the cost...perhaps I am waiting for the right set of schemes and strategies where I take Dreams of Pain as an offset to the cost.  In this case, I may have taken Lilitu with the same note about lure as above...she also has some staying power with regen, also, her 4" ml range is valuable.

 

I use Coppelius with ODW often as an assassin...quietly sneak him up the board and use his speed to fly over a building or some other blocking terrain to collect some eyeballs.  If you had a particularly good hand, then launch him after a Teddy, whose df 3 should render not only eyes, but can bump damage with a failed duel from the crow.  Should really be prepared with three eyes before doing so.  Given the list presented, I'd launch Coppleius towards Poltergeist for a quick couple of eyes and then target Candy or Teddy after gaining better df.  Remember, Coppelius is sneaky, be sneaky with him.

 

As for movement, for the first turn or two; utilize Daydreams to push nightmares and don't forget to hand out fast with Dreamer, who can also push.  Insideous Madness is a great runner, though depending on what your objectives are, Stiched Together may be a fitting choice as well, and don't forget Doppleganger...who at least deserves honorable mention.  Strategy wise, from the start I would push a nightmare with a Daydream and sack for the mask, then use Dreamer to pop out Alps that I would aggresively run forward to tie up key models and allow my purchased crew some freedom to move. 

 

All that being said, I have begun playing around with mercenaries and Lazarus has proven to be quite an asset and a favorable choice for Reckoning.  Given the info available, this is the crew I would have likely taken (possible going with Lilitu over Teddy):

 

Neverborn Crew - 50 - Scrap

The Dreamer -- 3 Pool
 +Restless Dreams [1]
 +Tantrum [2]

Daydream [2]
Baby Kade [7]
Coppelius [8]
 +On Dreaming Wings [2]
Insidious Madness [5]
Lazarus [11]
Teddy [11]
 

[Snakeshit]

If you struggling with coppelius its because you targeted the wrong models. He is not a beat stick and how I play him is going after smaller models. That said there were not to many small models in that crew. I would have dropped the ww and coppelius and maybe put in nekima and another madness. Teddy is a very squishy model with defence 3. Nekimas damage output is 4 on min so 3 hits on a teddy he is dead that's if they min. Yr playing a chompy crew so that's also fun he can also hit nice and hard If you can try pull of 4 wakening a turn it can be nice then you get 7 ap from the dreamer and chompy combined. I am liking that Kill joy crew that ZFiend tried the other day might have been fun here.    

[zFiend]

Solid advices here for sure! I like the attention the Dreamer is getting, he's by far one of my favourite Masters. 

 

A few things, two Teddies to me also sounds like overkill. One is enough, also if you know that you are going up against Teddy, let alone two, your opponent would have been crying his eyes out should you have gone Dreams of Pain path and just summoned Stitched Togethers, as in a Dreamer crew they become expendable and love a target like Teddy (propably love Teddy the most) as they target DF not WP, as someone mentioned here they will NOT gain anything from the WP debuffs. As Teddy has df 3 and Stitched's begin with Ca6 it's more than likely to go through, it also ignores any  so Teddy's Impossible to Wound helps none here. 

 

Taking one Teddy and maybe Kade + Depression still would have left you 3ss more. To make a bigger pool, Dreamer in my opinion hates such a low pool as 2. Think about this, later in the game playing Chompy path when SS and cards have been drained (and you will drain them) you start Disembowel Chompy, you need SS for that but instakilling enemies is worth it. 

 

Coppelius is a tough model for sure, he can take a beating while healing himself but he needs to get some eyeballs before that to make his df go high, so he is better against preying upon the weak at first, taking down scheme runners and such, after that can return to the middle and start tarpitting. Widow Weaver can be great but she can also backfire and do absolutely nothing. 

 

The Daydreams are used to push Nightmares around so you don't have to use AP to walk with your big hitters (Teddy). Also having 2-3 Daydreams pushing a Chompy from 12" to enemy cluster and letting him use all his 3 AP's from Restless Dreams to Onslaught or Disembowel is just horrifying, that's what you want to do with Daydreams, the Chompy Express!

 

If you want to go kill 'em all Nekima is your go to. I played an Elite list of Kill Joy, Nekima, ML Expert Chompy and Hooded Rider, but Hooded Rider actually doesn't fit that well as he wants to sit back for too long and you play outgunned at that point, so replace that with Teddy and you're bound to cause wreckage. Also the Dreamer's Pleasant Dreams heals every friendly model, not just Nightmares, so even more healing for Kill Joy and Nekima also can be really bad for your opponent

 

I have found it though that usually Dreamer excels at being at the Summoner path, as you can really dictate the game then, you can summon in models that you need for the occasion, that can counter your opponents models, cause as much distraction as possible. Summoning in 1-2 Stitched Together's usually makes your opponent attack them, which means they wont attack your paid models, if they do attack your paid models then it's Gamble your life time and that will hurt. The Dreamer can do so much amazing things, he can summon models, he can heal them, he can take away conditions, he can make them push and attack, he can paralyze enemy models, damn what can't he do?

 

Also fun little trick when going Summoner, take Mr. Tannen and Leave It To Luck (+2 Mask value) you need 13 or the Red Joker and boom, you summon in a Teddy, should you get them both at the same time, summon in two Teddies and the rage quit is strong with your opponent 

[zKoTTe]

You can never get enough Teddies! 

 

It was a great game with Ikvar, but once again did Pandora destroy the game, I was shocked when she almost wrecked 2 Teddies without breaking a sweat, if we had continued  her autowin button "Inflict" would have destroyed his entire team.

 

Wyrd really needs to look at Pandora, she is too powerful with the "Fears given Form" upgrade, a single model in Malifaux should not be able to do so much damage and be so fast and agile at the same time, she is not even easy to kill - Use the right upgrades and leave her with 6+ Soul Stones and do everything you can to make her survive, she can't be stopped when she is within 8" of your models.

 

I could go into details about the rest of my crew, but they were mostly just fillers, it's all about delivering the Pandora Death Machine

[zFiend]

Hm? 

 

That's an interesting statement, I haven't heard such of Pandora? Or then I must have totally overlooked it. Could you maybe open that up a bit more? Just because I have been considering trying out Pandora to see if she has a place in my Neverborn's but if she's as you say she is, then I'll just have to skip it. 

[Dirial]

 

Hm? 

 

My thought exactly.

 

Pandora is good, no question. But how is she able to kill so much all on her own? I have no particular problems playing against her with Lady J, and Dita and Sonnia scare the heck out of my Neverborn opponent. Rightly so!

 

Although the Rail Crew has some serious problems against all those Wp attacking, Hard to Kill ignoring attacks. That was brutal, indeed.

[StaticVortex]

I think there are some conditional factors that would make Pandora deliver such devastation.  First; I think it presumes that her enemy is going to cluster around her, thereby taking 3dmg upon activation in addition to the wounds she will dish out.  

 

I have to disagree with Pandora being so 'fast'...with a walk of 4 and a chance to push 4 on a failed duel with her, she can get around, sure....but in light of Dreamer with his 7" incorporeal walk, or Lilith and her 6" not slowed by terrain walk, I would consider Pandora the slowest of all the Neverborn masters except for perhaps, Zoraida...whose walk is 5, but lacks the push.

 

If I were facing Pandora with Dreamer, I would likely go the summoner route and hire 3 Daydreams and at least two, Insidious Madness, and Widow Weaver.  Pandora's strength comes from superior WP, so mitigating that helps level the playing field.  The rest of the crew would depend on strat/schemes.  If you're very worried about her, you could always take Chompy and a friend to get all up in her face and bid her a personalized farewell.

[Mason]

You can never get enough Teddies! 

 

It was a great game with Ikvar, but once again did Pandora destroy the game, I was shocked when she almost wrecked 2 Teddies without breaking a sweat, if we had continued  her autowin button "Inflict" would have destroyed his entire team.

 

Wyrd really needs to look at Pandora, she is too powerful with the "Fears given Form" upgrade, a single model in Malifaux should not be able to do so much damage and be so fast and agile at the same time, she is not even easy to kill - Use the right upgrades and leave her with 6+ Soul Stones and do everything you can to make her survive, she can't be stopped when she is within 8" of your models.

 

I could go into details about the rest of my crew, but they were mostly just fillers, it's all about delivering the Pandora Death Machine

 

 

Just to check, because this comes up from time to time, are you allowing Pandora to do her push whenever she wins a Willpower duel, or whenever the opponent fails a Willpower duel caused by one of her attacks?  If it's the latter, then I can see your concern, because she's not supposed to function like that and it will certainly make her more powerful than she's supposed to be.

[Ikvar]

Just to check, because this comes up from time to time, are you allowing Pandora to do her push whenever she wins a Willpower duel, or whenever the opponent fails a Willpower duel caused by one of her attacks?  If it's the latter, then I can see your concern, because she's not supposed to function like that and it will certainly make her more powerful than she's supposed to be.

 

Can I get you to elaborate a bit on this?

- I have seen it been said about how she deals out damage aswell, but I am not sure if me and Zkotte have been playing it the right way.

[Durza]

A model in a duel is using their stat as that duel, so in a Sh - Df duel, the attacking model is doing a Sh duel, and the defending model is doing a Df duel. Incite is the only attack I can see that uses her Wp, so unless she is using incite, her other attacks use Ca, so it's a Ca duel to her, her opponent is the one taking the Wp duel.

[Gorbad]

Basically Pandora only have two opposed Wp duels. Incite, that you can at most do twice if you get the trigger, and using her Wp for defence. None of her other attacks or abilities are opposed Wp duels (for Pandora) so she doesn't get to push on them. She isn't slow, but she certainly isn't as fast as she used to be. 

[zKoTTe]

Oh that helps a lot, but i did not move when an attack was succesful, only when he started to hit me.

 

And yes Ikvar did clusterfock my Pandora, so it was a huge advantage for me

 

But 4 inches every time the opponent miss is still a lot of mobility

[Verdeloth]

Wanted to ask this for so long but just forgot about it.

Does it really count as a won wp duel

When deffending ? Its not just a swing and

A miss. ? Similar deffens abilities atleast say when damaged do this or if failed activate trigger.

I been playing that i dont "win" a duel

If he miss the attack, for me its just a failed attack.

So i have not trigger fading memory on it

[Lucidicide]

Every duel has a winner and loser. The winner is whoever got the higher total.

 

Whatever stat you use in a duel is the type of duel. If you use Ca, it's a Cast duel. If you use Wp, it's a Willpower duel.

 

If Pandora uses Wp (as on defense) and wins, then she has won a Wp duel, and can push.

[Gorbad]

But 4 inches every time the opponent miss is still a lot of mobility

 

Sure, that's why you got to work at not missing.  It is also the only reason why you should ever crowd Pandora (IMO). To stop her from pushing in a direction you don't want her to go. Aside from that she is best dealt with by individual models with high stats or by ignoring her/slowing her and killing her crew. Take out her support models and she is less scary. And have a much harder time winning the game too. It's also worth noting that Pandora is one of those masters where it doesn't pay to just throw a spare attack at her. If you don't think you got a good chance of hitting and doing damage (or debuffing or whatever) then it's probably better not to attack at all. Focusing can be a good idea. If you can force a couple of big hit on her she isn't really that resilient.

[Lucidicide]

I feel that there are Masters you have to kill (Sonnia), Masters you might kill (Marcus), and Masters you shouldn't bother trying to kill (Pandora). Determining how to interact with the opponent's Master is vital to how you're going to win the game. I would encourage you to pretend you always have Assassinate, and consider whether or not it'll be easily achievable before the game ever begins. Then you can adjust your models accordingly.

 

And when you're going up against a model that has a 7 stat however you come at her, can likely injure you for trying to hurt her, and can move away so you're unlikely to get more than 1 attack... I'd say it's all about minimizing the pain (unless you have a lot of blasts or pulses).