Cheating Black on Red

[afeinman]

Here was an odd situation from the tourney yesterday--

 

I'd waded Ototo into a pack of enemies, and he was gonna die. To avoid my opponent killing him (Reckoning), I hit him with the Dawn Serpent's flame--intending to cheat up the damage and land some bursts all around. So I elected not to relent.

 

The randomizing flip went great, but when I flipped for his defense Ototo flipped the Red Joker. Ordinarily you can't cheat against the Red Joker, right? What made things really interesting was I had the Black Joker in my hand.

 

So the question was--could I cheat Black onto Red?

 

The TO ruled (in the moment) that yes, I could, because my opponent hadn't flipped the Red Joker, and that's how it reads. (Also, because it was hilarious, and I was losing badly anyways...)

 

What say you? Can you cheat Black onto your own Red?

[edonil]

Yeah. Technically speaking, I believe you can always cheat the Red Joker down... just rare that you would want to. You're just not allowed to cheat Black to something else.

[Mako]

Just like a normal duel, I would say you have two models with totals. The one with the red joker can cheat, while the one facing the red joker can't.

So you could cheat ototo's red to a black, but not cheat the dawn serpent's attack as that's facing the red, as far as I read it.

[Tuttleboy]

Flipping the Red Joker only prevents the opponent from cheating. Here's the quote from the RM:

 

If a player's opponent flips a Red Joker from her Fate Deck, the player is not able to Cheat Fate.

 

 

[The Godlyness]

it Specifically says when your Opponent flips the red.  i am not my opponent

[Nagash1959]

Yup, perfectly legal. Much like if you're forced to attack your own model (like with Killjoy) you can cheat your total down.

[zFiend]

Yup, perfectly legal. Much like if you're forced to attack your own model (like with Killjoy) you can cheat your total down.

 

 (it's so great they brought this back)

[PeregrineFalcon]

Alex, isn't that the way I ruled it...for the reasons Tuttleboy and The Godlyness mention.

The explanation we had to check was if it was opponents only or not. It was so great to see this explicitly called out in the rulebook as it just goes to show they really thought about this editions rules.

[graeme27uk]

it Specifically says when your Opponent flips the red.  i am not my opponent

 

No.... but my fate deck is my opponent.... forget the enemy crew!

[Dracomax]

No.... but my fate deck is my opponent.... forget the enemy crew!

While that may literally be true, Opponent is defined as the enemy crew controller, not an inanimate collection of colored bits of paper.

[Mr_Brightside]

I had kind of a similar situation. An abomination tagged my model with cursed object. My model only had one wound left, and the caustic aura would kill him if i failed. I flipped  the red joker for my DF test, but then cheated with the Black Joker from my hand to fail it. Not only did that take care of cursed object, but I had frame for murder on my model as well. Opponent lost 1 vp, and I gained 2.

[afeinman]

Alex, isn't that the way I ruled it...for the reasons Tuttleboy and The Godlyness mention.

 

Yup, you nailed it at the time. I was just curious what everyone else thought, and also wanted to publicize your decision as I feel it was the right one.

 

Plus, it was hilarious.

[PeregrineFalcon]

It was quite hilarious. Love moments like that in Malifaux.