Vanessa's heal???

[doubledragon]

Hey guys,

Quick question about Vanessa's heal, "Ley Stone Unleashed" and I guess healing in general.

If she casts it on herself when she is at full wounds, would whatever the amount she flipped (2/3/4), still heal other sisters in play?

The rulebook states that healing cannot raise a models current wounds total above it's starting wounds stat and that any excess healed wounds are discarded. So my confusion comes in with the discarded part - because she's at full wounds in this instance, whatever she flips becomes discarded right? So therefore other sisters in play don't heal anything?

What are your thoughts?

[MasterDisaster]

Hey guys,

Quick question about Vanessa's heal, "Ley Stone Unleashed" and I guess healing in general.

If she casts it on herself when she is at full wounds, would whatever the amount she flipped (2/3/4), still heal other sisters in play?

The rulebook states that healing cannot raise a models current wounds total above it's starting wounds stat and that any excess healed wounds are discarded. So my confusion comes in with the discarded part - because she's at full wounds in this instance, whatever she flips becomes discarded right? So therefore other sisters in play don't heal anything?

What are your thoughts?

 

"Fates Entwined: Whenever this model makes a healing flip, all other friendly Sister models in play may heal the flipped amount."

 

So this is the ability in question. Note it states "all other friendly Sister models in play may heal the flipped amount". This basically means they heal whatever Vanessa flipped, not what she actually heals. All the Sisters are the same with this. Vanessa would discard any excess wounds above her full value however even if that is the case she still flips either 2/3/4 so which ever value she flips also heals other Sisters in play. Of course is all other Sisters are also at full wounds they they also discard any excess wounds above their full Wd value. 

 

A cool trick to use this mehcanic is to put the Survivalist upgrade on Vik of Ashes and stick a Freikorps Librarian near her. She can then heal 1/2/3 2 times per turn with  to healing flips thanks to Survivalist which is then passed on to all the other Sisters! 

[Ryoken]

I think the real question is in the wording of "Fates Entwined"

 

Fates Entwined: Whenever this model

makes a healing flip, all other friendly Sister

models in play may heal the flipped amount.

 

Copy pasta straight from the PDF there.  

 

Since all Sisters are not healing the "healed amount" or "same amount"  they are healing the "flipped amount."  So if the flip would heal 4 wounds on a severe, she would heal zero at full wounds.  All other sisters would check their wounds and heal the amount flipped as well.  Once again, they are not healing the amount Vanessa heal, just the flipped amount.

 

This is my groups interpretation of it.  Other groups might play it differently.  

[quiche]

There is the strange irony of having to stand out in the middle of no-mans land to get some of the best medical attention in Malifaux.

[MasterDisaster]

There is the strange irony of having to stand out in the middle of no-mans land to get some of the best medical attention in Malifaux.

 

You don't have to but if you want that tasty +2 Ca  then hells yeah you do! 

[doubledragon]

I play it as Master Disaster suggests, but some others in my gaming group suggest that it should be played as Ryoken suggests. Which is what made me post the question here to hopefully get an answer

[Kogan Style]

To me both of them are saying the same thing? All sisters heal the flipped amount, not just what Vanessa actually heals.

[Twg]

The only confusion here seems to be yours. The wording is quite clear in that it states that sisters heal what is flipped, not what Vanessa heals as both gents above stated.

[Ryoken]

To me both of them are saying the same thing? All sisters heal the flipped amount, not just what Vanessa actually heals.

 

We are saying the same thing.  He dropped the post a few seconds before I did is all.  

[Kogan Style]

I play it as Master Disaster suggests, but some others in my gaming group suggest that it should be played as Ryoken suggests. Which is what made me post the question here to hopefully get an answer

 

Sorry Ryoken, this is what I was referring to. I didn't see the difference between yourself and Master's explanation.

[Ryoken]

No need to be sorry.  Just happy we are all on the same page now.  (I hope) And I was just confirming that you were correct.

[zFiend]

I think MD's explanation pretty much nailed it. Also he brought up a nasty nasty trick

[MasterDisaster]

I think MD's explanation pretty much nailed it. Also he brought up a nasty nasty trick

 

Well it's not that... yeah your right it's pretty nasty . It can make the Viks real tough to shake off. I don't go anywhere without a FK Librarian and Survivalist in my arsenal. 

[zFiend]

I hope our Vik player isn't reading this..

[war_B00B]

I was on the receiving side of this. It is very very frustrating.

You hack them down to one wound then next turn Vanessa and the Librarian put them right back up to full.

[MasterDisaster]

I was on the receiving side of this. It is very very frustrating.

You hack them down to one wound then next turn Vanessa and the Librarian put them right back up to full.

 

It can be frustrating for the opponent on the recieving end but think about the effort that goes into keeping the Viks up. 2 AP from Vanessa which means she is stationary unless moved around by Sisters in Spirit (which will cost more AP) and 1-2 AP from a Librarian as well so potentially you are looking at 4 AP to heal them back up again. You also have to take into account that all Sisters gain a 1/2/3 heal whenever Blood Vik kills a model for the first time during her Activation 

 

On top of all this you also need to take into account the SS cost for this combo. 1ss for Survivalist, 7ss for the FK Librarian and 8ss for Vanessa. Thats 16ss out of a 50ss crew also considering Ash Vik only has a starting cache of 1ss, if you want a decent cache to play with thats a further kick in the balls. It's going be a fairly heavy investment if all your doing is baby sitting the Sisters. To be fair they can also dish out a tonne of hurt through their Ca attack actions but it can be quite intensive keeping the heals up and achieving objectives. 

[war_B00B]

It can be frustrating for the opponent on the recieving end but think about the effort that goes into keeping the Viks up. 2 AP from Vanessa which means she is stationary unless moved around by Sisters in Spirit (which will cost more AP) and 1-2 AP from a Librarian as well so potentially you are looking at 4 AP to heal them back up again. You also have to take into account that all Sisters gain a 1/2/3 heal whenever Blood Vik kills a model for the first time during her Activation 

 

On top of all this you also need to take into account the SS cost for this combo. 1ss for Survivalist, 7ss for the FK Librarian and 8ss for Vanessa. Thats 16ss out of a 50ss crew also considering Ash Vik only has a starting cache of 1ss, if you want a decent cache to play with thats a further kick in the balls. It's going be a fairly heavy investment if all your doing is baby sitting the Sisters. To be fair they can also dish out a tonne of hurt through their Ca attack actions but it can be quite intensive keeping the heals up and achieving objectives. 

Yeah look all credit to my opponent, he is a very good player and can manage a lot on the table at once.

 

The Viks move very quickly and can hit very very hard in one activation. Coupled with the very well managed healing of Vanessa and the Librarian, all while keeping them out of immediate danger makes this combo incredible to watch against the likes of an opponent like Lady J and the guild marshals. It resulted in a very close, very expensive SS pool dual in turn 2 that was an incredible amount of fun to play.

 

This is a very good and highly effective strategy for the Viks.

[zFiend]

The Viks sure hit hard.. "21ss gone from the table by a slow Master Vik". 

 

Do you play Justice yourself? You could always try to Pinebox the keymodels behind this little trick? You don't have to kill them, just box them and kill the one you want dead before the other ones get away from the Box.

[MasterDisaster]

Viks HATE Pineboxes, utterly hate them! If you can bag yourself Vik of Ashes the other Sisters lose out on their Melee Expert ability and their melee power drops quite a lot. This also reduces the chances of them getting high heals from the Librarian if Ashes has Survivalist. Once you remove certain elements from the equation you can pick off Blood, Vanessa, Librarians etc and deal with them at your own pace.

 

Ashes is easier to target earlier in the turn as she only gets  to Wp and Df duels when the opponent has 3 or less cards in their hands. Blood has the  when they have 4+ cards in their hand so bear this in mind. Also they are amazing at buffing each other. Most of the buff spells on the upgrades affect all Sisters in play but they both have 2 (0) actions, each has one that affects all Sisters within  2 with either +1 Df or +1 Ml1. Trying to separate them is often a bad idea because if they are more than 6" away from other Sisters they can then buff for  to Attack flips of Damage flips, the ideal range for Sisters to be apart is 3-5" so neither of their (0) buffs can work.

 

They can be very tricky to deal with but take out the support healers  and they become incredibly fragile. It wont take much to down a Vik with a little concentrated effort. Their primary durability is healing. With this in mind shut it down by killing the healers, luring them out of range or burying them. If you can't do that then hit them with The Hanged to half their health and prevent healing for the rest of the game. If you are lucky then they wont have Johan to remove the no healing condition and you can rip them to pieces. 

[zFiend]

 gets  to Wp and Df duels when the opponent has

 

Actually it's when "this models controller".

[MasterDisaster]

Actually it's when "this models controller".

 

Yeah I was talking from the perspective of the Viks being your opponent. 

 

Probably should have made that a bit clearer but hey, I'm at work waiting for people to get back to the office so I can go home! 

[zFiend]

Ah okay then, I might have misunderstood that as well

[Kaptain_Konrad]

So survivalist gets a + flip with librarian? I though they wouldnt since the librarian makes the flip. Doesn't it say target heals 1/2/3. I could see it gaining the + if 8t said target models makes a healing flip.

[RagingRodian]

My initial thought was "can you even try to heal yourself if you aren't wounded?", but the rules don't actually say you can't. Gotta watch those sneaky Sisters!

Regardless, my metal Student of Conflict is still a boy, even if his card says "Sister". I am speculating it has something to do with him being a big Rocky Horror fan...

[Kadeton]

So survivalist gets a + flip with librarian? I though they wouldnt since the librarian makes the flip. Doesn't it say target heals 1/2/3. I could see it gaining the + if 8t said target models makes a healing flip.

 

"Target heals 1/2/3" and "Target makes a 1/2/3 healing flip" mean exactly the same thing in this game. The model that is being healed is always the one making the flip.

 

On the wider discussion, I've played the Viks all through M2E so far with only minimal healing (no Vanessa, no Freikorps Librarian) with no problems. Many people seem obsessed with keeping the Viks alive, and while you can try to do that, it's not very efficient - if you want to play a resilient crew, try the Freikorps. The Viks' style lends itself far better to crippling the opponent's crew in a single strike, not surviving in an extended slugfest.

 

(Just my opinion, obviously, and perhaps I'll change my tune when I bring the FKL or Vanessa back into the crew on a regular basis - but I've never missed them in M2E, and I won the local tournament I played with the Viks.)