Ogid

We were talking pass each other then... With "Double Summon" I was refering to summon 2 expensive models (7+ cost) that the summoner can't summon on just 1 activation. You are right summoning 2 cheap models the first turn it gives those summoners good "AP" efficiency; but the power of the models is also a factor. It's not only the AP gain but the ability to summon 16SS worth of powerful beaters in a turn where weakening the hand isn't that big of a deal most of the time. Actually one of the other master that can summon the totem got a price increase (and colette needs 1 SS or the rider to summon them, so not sure if she counts)... But anyway, It was a comment after watching that game; It feels strong but I don't have experience with it so I'm not saying it's broken (or at least broken enough haha). I was just commenting on the ways to "fix" it proposed before. In the case that ability got nerf batted, I wouldn't like her losing the ability to bring 3 summons because it's one of the things that make her different; I'd rather either her paying a bit extra for the privilege of doing that the first turn or staggering the summons over the game a bit. Wow, The game has changed a lot. I see it with my M3E only eyes, but that help me to understand a bit some opinions of older edition players about the Focused changes or complains about cheaper models. It's good the balance is getting better other time tho (but I agree, the balance is good enough, but still far from perfect)

In my experience WW is the best of the pair for stitcheds summoning; Vasilisa needs a 9+ so unless I happens to have the right card when the doll die, that scrap will be left behind If Vasilisa is needed in other place. Lol... What's the rush? Use the good old back to back activation!

It's good to see more Vasilisa lovers fans out of there Try a wicked doll with that combo; it increases the support cost to 11, but it gives you a few solid things: A cheap model to drop the scheme required, a model also able to put adversary (Nephillim) on the model about to get knifed (which I've found important to get it consistently enough; only very bad luck or a BJ will make it fail). And it also gives Vasilisa something to do after turn 2 if you are playing a crew without other constructs, carting that doll around to drop schemes. Another useful thing I've found with that opening is setting up a second Vasilisa obey to reposition the Mature in turn 2 before activating him (just set up another scheme near of it and don't move Vasilisa too far away so she is still in range in turn 2); that second obey kind of make up for the first turn where the BBS barely moves (but only if you can afford to cheat an 8 the second turn and be also careful not to put him into harm's way if he is still with 6 Wds or you could lose him before even getting the chance to use it!)

@Mycellanious Not sure if I asked you this before but, how do you play Marcus to get that much card draw and not be hand starved? I don't like facing Terrifying with his crew because he already kind of terrifying himself having to get a 6 to make a beast move or charge; adding to that a Terrifying duel is crippling. It's true Cojo has a good Wp value, but every other beast has a 5 or 4 as a Wp and there is no Ruthless beast (at least no with him as the master). I usually play Marcus for his mobility, so I end splitting the crew most of the time; which doesn't help to get draw with the 6'' aura (this might be my playstile tho). Do you play it in a bubble? In which kind of pools? How do you handle crews better at combat than him or anti-charge tech? Just in case, I'm asking about NVB Marcus. You already has 2 good ways to handle him with both crews (also pick the Rider with Pandora to have another good model at punishing him without having to pass Terrifying duels); however the best takeaway is that you can't kill him unless the other player gives you an opening, he is too mobile... Another model worth looking at with Marcus is the Rougarou; it's not necesarily good versus him with his Wp of 5, so I don't recomend you to pick him specifically to kill Archie. But if you happen to be playing him in a game where Archie is also in, mind he has a Flay trigger and a Puncture trigger; both let him bypass H2W if you have the right cards in your hand (and he has Horns or Focused). If you play double master, consider taking the Dreamer as a tech piece versus him with Pandora in some games. He already works well with her, with Serene Countenance and without Archie being able to get Focused, he is hardly a threat for the boy. And the best part, his Diversion aura shuts down Archie's mobility; if he goes in, he will be pinned down (and you could even activate Pandora's aura to reduce it to Mv2 and make almost impossible for him to disengage or move away from the aura).

Good luck with Dora; mind she isn't an easy master to start with. You have good models; keep getting her keyword models and get the rider; that should get you started. From there Serena is a good next stop. Castling could be viable there under some circunstances; but I'm not sure if Pandora could do it or not (never tried it with her). Placing the 4 symbols forming an square or a diamond you can minimice the area to defend and force the other player to engage your crew to get them. Pandora would then need a good and reliable runner to get symbols; something dangerous and fast, like a Mature or the rider. It's probably not the best way to face that strategy for her; but with limited models it might work a shot.

Haha, good one; but you know I wasn't refering to that. There is a reason a double Akaname rush isn't a thing. That's fair, but that's the asumption that we were working out, that maybe she wasn't correctly costed / the double summon is too powerful. The atempt to balance her reducing her points put her in an usuitable range for a master with her tools and being a better summoner OOK than IK doesn't seem intended (which is the point of the thread) But anyway, as said above, I'm no RES expert; I was just jumping in the banwagon to put out a few thoughts; as said above I think being a summoner it's advantage enough without geting also an extra summon in turn 1; but I could be wrong. Maybe there are a few of them restricted for potential OP combos, but I don't think all of them are... In the Tara's case for example there is a lot of ways to hire models OOK that generate pass tokens and mess with activation control that the other player cannot react to. It always surprise me the amount of over the top things that were in the game in old editions... Replacing models for a mannequins lol. Comparing both, it seems like an overlook; there is no point of specifiying the 6'' range if he can't ignore the mele range.

IDK… mixing non-master could actually mud this point, Iggy is a 6SS model that can get fast for example, but neither of those models could bring its SS cost on models on top of being an SS user plus all the good stuff of a master. I should make clear I don’t know if that ability is too much or not, It was on my radar before and I was actually quite surprised with the amount of aggression Maniacal cakle was able to put on that game versus plaag so it raised some questions for me; also the fact that he is advocating for the change is telling. But at the end of the day I don’t have experience with or versus it; now that combo got some attention I guess other players will emulate it and developers will look into it, so whatever is decided (even if it's keeping it as it is) it’s fine by me. But what I’m disagreeing is the idea Kirai’s cost is tied to that ability as a second master pick. It’s maybe my experience with other masters, but Asami and Dreamer for example are also 2 master that rely heavily on their keywords and are worth every single SS as OOK picks without getting a double summon the first turn and an almost free totem to sweeten the deal. Also I don’t think she is that bad, She does take damage from her summons, but she has Life leech and protected; so she has the tools to generate her own healing; her summons are generating healing for the leader and that could also free the healer to patch her in case of need (plus GSK, but if she gets an upgrade she will probably get TW; Intuition is very good on summoners) Isn’t “crazy combinations” another way to say “too good”? XD. I don’t see what crazy combinations come from Tara getting 5 AP or Pandora messing with activations other than being over the top abilities that developers don’t want outside of the keyword for being too good. It’s good that masters get some over the top things, but it's also good to keep double master power on check imo.

I've been seen this before; someone comented this was evaluated during the beta but not implemented in the end. It maybe doesn't go against the fluff/spirit (exorcising a newborn pig is a bit stupid for example), but it'd be good for balance; easy come easy go. I agree this could be a good change, either by a generic blank summoning upgrade that get attached if no upgrade is attached (this could be maybe cumbersome in things like rats, i guess?) or by a new token that counts as if the model had a sumoning upgrade for effects that specifically check for those. However this won't affect everyone the same. Who are the ones with those kind of triggers/effects? GUI, RES and TT? But thinking about it, Taelor already try to unsummon everything, it having an upgrade or not XD.

I understand the logic, but as you comment 10SS it's too low so it kind of refutes itself. For comparison, Toshiro is 10SS, 2 AP and can only bring Ashigarus (who are very good btw), and he is even OOK pick worthy (in fact he is a staple in a local Seamus player lists for example). 10SS for a model with 3 AP and able to bring more powerful models than a non-master summoner just can't be right. In my case I rate summoners quite high. The main value of her as a summoner OOK is she being able to put 2 other models in the table that costs as much as her by turn 2 (it's true that costs cards, SS and initiative advantage, but it's still very powerful). After that everything she brings is a net gain, and she has interesting tools in her kit (coordinated attack in a model that may stone it is a very powerful force multiplier to name one). Adding to that the totem in turn 1 is what could push her over the edge. I edited my post above and kind answered the Ikyro above (it seems while you wrote your anwer)... I think that totem's cost is too high to be a viable OOK pick and the reason is that's a resumoning cost, but it'd be about tweaking it into more realistic levels; for example just by giving it the versatile characteristic would bring it to a more reasonable price OOK while keeping its summoning cost as 8. But I still like more the idea of still letting her summon the totem, but restricting the double summon as second master; it's good that all masters keep their cool things, but there is a reason masters have some features behind "if this master is this crew's leader"; some could be too good.

How would she be correctly priced for only 10SS?? She is still a master (so 3AP), has 12 Wds, Protected, life leech, Vengeance, stat 6 attacks (with great triggers like Coordinated Attack or Execute), a heal, a decent bonus... and she is also one of the few stat 7 summoner with quite good summons… 15SS is perfectly fine for her without taking in count the totem. From the pair is Ikiryo the one overpriced, that model doesn't worth more than 7SS (but I understand that extra SS is for it being resumonable) Also IK Kiray doesn't gain anything for not hiring the totem, but OOK Kiray gains 9SS to hire another model; those cases aren't comparable. I agree with @Maniacal_cackle here, early game summons are the summons that get the most benefices (and it's also the best turn to summon because unless its a wedge deployment or the crew face a very agressive crew, there will be few interaction between players). Letting her only double summon as a master but still letting her bring 3 summons is reasonable (2 summons in turn 1 versus a third summon in turn 3 will make a huge difference while still keeping her quirk)

Terrifying + H2W in a model with a ton of Wds is hard to swallow, specially in a model with Jump and a self-healing; there is hardly a perfect counter for him. The Carver or The Rider are the 2 ruthless in the faction that would let you attack him without sacrificing your hand, but neither of those could realistically one round him (maybe with Zoraida to give them extra AP with Obeys, Coordinated attacks or Fast). Other high damage and High Wp models like LCB, Titania (using the blood pact combo for extra ping damage) or Bad Juju would have an easier time with the Terrifying than other models while still doing good damage, but here your hand will start to notice it. Nekima with IR could one round him if she can charge through him 3 times, but passing the 3 terrifying tests with her Wp6; or Wrath even with Wp5 could do some work if Archie attacks nearby models (using with Destructive Performance, Violent Ghosts and 1 Focused attack stoning Puncture), Euripides may poke him a bit with his shockwaves and has Intuition to help with Terrifying... In the dual-faction master cases Marcus + Cojo (Wp 7) with horns and stacked Focused could kill him if he is too agressive (but Terrifying isn't good for that hand hungry crew) and the Agent 47 is another Ruthless that can get extra actions and copy a min 3 attack or deny cheating, so it's another good candidate for the job. Not exactly a dual faction, but Titania as the leader will get the new M-Rex, which is another Ruthless with min 3. Mind that even with the right models he needs a lot of firepower to go down, be careful not to ignore other important models for tunel visioning on killing him.

Playstile preference and how I designed this crew mainly; It could had been a pick. In my case I don't really like the Dragon for a combat role... Maybe versus lot of chaff, but I wasn't expecting that and even in that case the Lucky Emissary with Make Way would be a very solid conteder. Neither did I need Flight or wanted him for Symbol hunting. The Arcane Emissary between the aura, max damage 6 (which I could reach because I got 2 Focused supports this game and he spent the first 2 turns chilling) and 3 good triggers is quite dangerous and that's what I was looking for in the emissary this game. I also wanted some condition removal in the crew (at least in the first 2 turns) in case Colette tried to disable some of my models. The Arcane Emissary is also a construct, so he can be healed by Vasilisa and drop scrap. I was between him and the Lucky Emissary this game (who is tankier and also a construct), but Dispel Magic tipped the balance in this case. In other game I could had picked the shadow effigy (but without EoF) to pair with Vasilisa; "remember the mission" is a poor's man "don't mind me", quite handy to snatch some protected symbols. But in this game being corners I really needed to advance the Mysterious Effigy to advance key models with Lures to have a shot to reach a Symbol in turn 2.

I'm more purple than orange so I might lose some models, but a few notes: There are a few things: Irreducible damage can be done by Shenlong, Charm Warders and Ohaguro (all need triggers but monks can buy triggers with chi and Ohaguro is a Henchman), not sure if I'm missing someone. Samurais ignore armor in the mele attack and Sidir has Analyze Weakness (+ Ruthless); however the damage track of the gatling/machinegun doesn't go well against H2W Mind McCabe can make ANY minion (or any model of his keyword) Precise with the Timeworn Blade; the best combo is probably Asami summoning min 3 Jorogumos (which can use Flicker, Focused and has a Puncture trigger, so they can also overpower defenses quite well) and McCabe giving them that Sword (which give it also fast btw)... For just overpowering RES defenses that's probably top notch taking also in count the ton of damage and control McCabe brings. And let's not forget Tanukis that may enable models with puncture/charge through/Flicker to get through H2W (mostly Misaki's and Asami's crew); which is also almost like ignoring Armor and Incorporeal as those will be doing Moderate/Severe most of the time... there are also other Focused supports in the faction, mainly Sun Quiang, Kunoichis and Asami and his totem but only for Onis. They have good tools here and some of them prone to show up with different masters. Shenlong can transfer it from model to model, however in the posion's case isn't very good. Do you poision your own models or transfer the poison to other of their models? Katashiros, they are usually used as schemers (and summoned, so they will be pretty common); but can also be used to end conditions, this is another transfer but in this case just poison the Katashiro is a good move as they are throwaway summons anyway. Tanukis again (at least they are easy to kill), another model that shows up in a lot of list. Chiaki: Stat 7 dispel magic with built in slow; also handy because it might be used to give Izamu's Reliquary to any model in any crew (Ruthless and +1 Armor), it requires now an extra model to do that tho. If she is killed, her reliquary will periodically end conditions on the bearer (and the reliquary can be passed to models at 6''); even dead she will be a nuisance. They got anti demise, but only in a few crews; mostly monks (Shenlong has a Wp attack that ignores demises, it's ranged and low damage so it'll be a finisher), Charm Warders (those have the Qi and Gong + Monk Keyword) have Lantern of Souls, and they also got Manos + his reliquary, but only when playing Yan Lo as a master. Corpse removal: Asami's Insatiable Hunger, Lucas's and Luna's Scrounge for Relics (plus the Looted supplies/Loot their corpses abilites on their models), Sun Quiang's Study, Lotus Eater's path of the Lotus... not sure if I'm missing something I guess it might work, however as they can't go through H2W, I don't think you'll see them a lot versus RES.

An small follow up in the Cassandra topic; my game this weekend was NVB Marcus vs Raspy (Omega masters, yay!), my oponent took Cassandra and she performed well. The first turn helped with Pilars, the second turn helped to heal the Blessed of december to full after a BJ twarted my assassinate attemp; she also engaged my models, dealt some damage and even had enough mobility to threat reaching the symbols near of my deployment. She is still pricy and Raspy is defintely a non top tier master, but to consider in her crew.

This is key, giving free pass tokens to the other player is giving them some options you don't want him to have. The initiative advantage is more for getting the first activation than to guarantee the last activation (but if both happens it's ideal). The best case scenario is giving up (after wining it) the initiative the first turn to have the last activation and wining (cheating if needed) the second turn initiative flip (which is why that +2 initiative is there); that is a perfect back to back activation that will let glass cannons like Nekima get in and do enough damage or throw a wrench into crews with better resources/schemers. If the NVB player is the one with the pass tokens, he may even decide save a few if the other player reserved non-threatening models for the last activations the first turn (or if the rusher may hit places where those models will have a hard time hitting back) to guarantee the initiative; but if the other player is the one with them and knows what is coming, he may decide to save them to counter that initiative bonus; this may get the rusher killed/debuffed before it may deal enough damage to be worth it. Depending on the game that's followed by a retrieval combo to extract the rusher with Lures or just by the rest of the crew charging in (mind schemes tho... it's also important to keep an eye on the thing that actually wins the game lol).

Take a look at this thread, I had the same idea than you: I played her after that thread a few times that and she is indeed leader material. She gives the faction a lot of things that are scarce/out of the faction: Schemers: Coryphees + Duet are very good models, combinable with WW + Bandersnatch in the same crew for only +1SS tax. Armor heavy crew AoE healing and Take the hit. Bodyguard aura from Bill (way better than Maurice's one as it's always active and Bill is better all around) Demise denial (Lantern of Souls) Distraction Auras in a model with Combat Finesse (Kabuki) Vasilisa + Effigies/Puppets for a lot of staggered (this could be done with Dreamer tho) Activation Control (Leverage + Duet) Access to all effigies (which are good for 4SS) and any emisaries from turn 3. There Qi and Gong models are worth including in the right game (as long as the other player is mostly mele, most of those models die to gunlines very easily). For example, the 4SS Geisha is annoying and the aura can enable very nasty things, the Kunoichi can let you stack Focused in relevant models while being a jack of all trades or the Kabuki is an Distraction aura on a decently sturdy model versus mele models (again, do not pick him versus guns or spells). The Distraction aura is outstanding with all the good Wp attack NVB has (paired with Serena or Candy for example) I play her mostly in games where I can take advantage of the mobility of the schemers (Coryphees and/or Spiders), with some shenanigans around the Distraction aura or a lot of focused growing a Mature using Vasilisa + Kunoichi, usually also getting an emissary in turn 3 (Arcane and Lucky are great; and the new Explorer's emissary looks also legit). I don't use stitcheds on this crew (unless I summon them) because the lack of a lot of LD make them too hand hungry and that 6'' range hurt; plus I rather focusing on things I don't have in the faction; but maybe in a crew around Lures and Distraction auras (now than GYL is a Wp attack) could work well. Also don't overlook the Duet healing, very powerful when well used. The TLDR would be a fast schemy crew with some atrition and combat potential and a lot of versatility and shenanigans with all the out of faction tools (plus all the mindgames of being able to field models from 2 very different keywords like Qi and Gong and Puppets). Hinamatsu with 3 AP is good, but it's not the third AP for what I pick her as a leader. I have to test her against gunlines (not a lot of them in my meta) but I think she should work well there. It's not as powerful as the top dogs, but it's easily on par with other masters for how versatile the crew is (and I'd even rate her above some of the most undertuned masters). For example, a list I played recently with both Puppets and Qi and Gong models that got good results and that could show you the kind of things she could do as a master (Vs Colette in Corner Symbols): Hinamatsu Mysterious Effigy Vasilisa Coryphee Coryphee 2 Arcane Effigy (Effigy of Fate) Wicked Doll Black Blood Shaman Kunoichi Geisha 4SS Being Corners, Symbols and Colette I expected low agression (also my oponent was a good player, but he was still learning Colette so I wasn't expecting anything too fancy) so I went for a greedy opening of BBS into Mature in turn 1 PLUS EoF. The Coryphee Healing was key on turn 1 to heal the chip damage from the Kunoichi, the BBS knifing and Mature with only 6 Wds. After that both the Duet and the Mature were 2 very mobile models that I could use for symbol hunting or combat (for example, I managed to snipe a turn 2 symbols with the Mature after a Lure into accomplice from the Mysterous Effigy, after using the self-adversary trick). The Arcane Effigy was in reserve to punish models going too deep into my crew after turn 3. The Kunoichi, Hinamatsu, Vasilisa, Mysterious and Geisha were also more into defense, support and scheming duty and controlling the center (tho I was ready to use Vasilisa and the Mysterious effigy to dive for symbols if needed), Lures were used both offensively and defensively/utility. A funny fail: I tried to Lure the enemy coryphees to distrupt the duet reforming, but a well positioned Maneequin was in the way. Hinamatsu with a few lucky triggers almost killed the duet (7Wds) after this one tried to kill her and got saved thanks to my opponent Presto-Changing him into the backline to patch him (which was good because it gave me extra time). Hope it helps!

I play them a lot and I consider them very good, but they have their limits. They are very squishy, so taking them out is very easy; they aren't a good model to send on their own because even enemy schemers can take them out and just keep going. They need to abuse the creep along to stay alive. In tandem with Vasilisa they are better, however that's 11 SS. I play that pair because Vasi is a great support for other models like Teddy and Hinamatsu, and the doll's Adversary help with attacking your own models which help with things like BBS into Mature in turn 1 (which is something I like but not a must have because 11SS are required to speed up that grow). If they didn't offerend all that support and utilty I wouldn't bother taking that pair only for scheming, for 11SS I could hire the Rider and put him in scheming duty while still having a late game powerhouse for example. As other user pointed, the need to keep some list under 8/7 models to keep the initiative advantage make them not that useful with some masters.

@Marc Bowling About the faction, NVB isn't a straightforward faction... This faction has a few key disadvantages, it's light in defensive tech and healing, his focused machine is expensive, resource intensive (and has a hard time stacking focused on relevant models) and have to work harder to do things like scheming. But it has also a few advantages, the initiative control with double AP is very powerful and enable powerful alpha strikes, the focused pulse model can become a very good model in turn 2 (or even 1) and focused pulses help with the awful card draw of the faction and we have a few powerhouses like the rider or Hinamatsu. Those means that NVB in general need to hit hard and twice because they lack the tools for a good good atrition game or to outscheme other crews (I'm talking about the faction in general, double faction masters are another story); that kind of playstile is harder than sitting behind your Armor+2 and tons of healing crew. Gunlines are also a weakness, we have worse defensive tech versus those than other factions and now that Butterfly jump got replaced by scamper the upgrades offer 0 defense versus those. This means that playing this faction outside of the top dogs isn't easy; but that's part of what make this faction fun (at least for me). From a competitive point of view Dreamer and Zoraida are the ones keeping the faction relevant; if you want to win games or play the most powerful masters, that's a good place to start. Dreamer is a monster combat crew, his interact game isn't very efficient but this is one of the few NVB crews able to offer an insane atrition game. Zoraida with all the out of faction models give NVB very good schemers and can make also some good combat crews, plus all the utility of the obey and being the only master able to reliabily generate scrap to summon stitcheds (something other faction have for granted with their summoners). Aside from these take a look to Serena, the only reliable healer in most keywords and a good all around model, The rider and Hinamatsu, 2 great beaters and the BBS, the only Focused support in the faction. However I really recomend you to play whatever you like the most tho, being it more competitive or less and try different things; there are life beyond Dreamer and Zoraida, but you need to read well the match ups and get the right models. For example, I myself enjoy a lot playing Marcus, who is arguably the worst master of this faction by far; but It just clicks with me and I know in the pools where I can get away playing him and how to pivot into bad match ups. If you like the faction, stick with it. However if you feel the playstile isn't for you, go play and have fun with another one; RES is a very strong faction with a lot of very good stuff, so you probably won't regret it. Also, feel free to post the list and pools you are going to play, most users will give you a lot of good advice. Good luck!

I'm a bit late to the party and the other users already gave a lot of good advice... but I'll add a few points that I think that may help you. I don't play versus OUT a lot, so I can't give you specific advice in that front; but as a Pandora player I can give you some generic advice for the crew. First of all, mind Pandora isn't an easy master to play, if you look at most of the other bubble crews (like Ironsides or Daw for example), you'll find a LOT of defensive tech; but that's not the case of Pandora as you have seen, her models aren't the takiest out of there. But that's because her "defensive" tech is debuffing and controlling the other crew to a vegetative state (a slowed+stunned model without Focused won't accomplish a lot, specially if the other player has no cards); and that's tricky because until you control them, you'll have to survive their full potential with not so tanky models that need to get into the thick of it to be effective. Her crew deals also a lot of sustained and ping damage, and while her crew has some burst damage, that's not the best or easiest to set up so you need to control the enemy crew to kill them over time. Add that her crew has 0 card draw and the master is quite card hungry plus the low mobility and no engagement ranges in 2 key models and you have a quite complicated crew to play. The difference between controlling the enemy key models and getting smashed is quite slim in my experience. If you want to play her, go ahead and keep practicing; however don't get frustrated if it takes a while because she has a high skill floor and playing control means how you use the crew determines how good is both your offense and your defense, your play have to be on point just to survive. If you say your meta has good player that'll be even harder, because those kind of players will know how to minimice or get around your control. If you are still learning M3E mechanics and models, you might benefice from playing another easier and more versatile crew a bit before jumping into her, learning those mechanics plus her tricky crew isn't easy; but it's your call. Some things I want to echo: A mostly in keyword Pandora crew will be very good controlling an area and with things like Arson and Lure they have also threat in a big area around that bubble; however the lack of mobility is noticeable to achieve anything outside of that area; so if the enemy crew can just avoid the death bubble to score or shot her down; that's not a good game for her. The best scenario for her is when she may park her crew in an spot and the enemy needs to go to that spot to also score. Pandora is playable in games that needs more mobility, but you'll need to go heavy into OOK/Versatile to not being in a big dissadvantage. Things like the Rider or a Mature Nephillim (from a BBS) are mobile themselves, but may also reposition Sz2 or 1 models like Pandora or Candy (this is key with Candy to reposition her without having to activate her); with a crew with those Pandora may perform well in not so good pools for her (or you can just pick another master better suited for the job ) Mood Swings wins games, but overuse/missuse it and it'll hurt you more than it'll hurt them. Mind if you are using pass tokens, you are giving up a LOT of activation control, and that's very bad news for Candy; if you are using pass tokens, be sure to get kills in non-activated models to make up for it. Some examples of good uses of this ability are: Delay an important model activation and kill it without it activating (this hurts a lot) or activating key enemy models in akward moments (like a healer before damage is done, or a model that will try to attack in the last activation during the first ones, or debuffed enemy models before their conditions get removed by their supports or models about to get pushed into range before they are pushed) Take also a look to Hinamatsu and Serena (+rider mentioned above) as important versatiles in this faction. Vasilisa and small puppets (which includes the effigy) are useful as a pack of schemers while also bringing conditions (tho Vasilisa's aura cannot trigger Misery as it happens in the start phase). As other stated, you'll need a cache 6 or more at least to survive until the enemy crew is controlled and enable her models. Candy is a key model because her aura passively stun and drain the hand of your enemies; as other stated her trigger is KEY to position her, 1 SS (or 1 Pandora AP + a card) and your highest card the first turn (or the turn before you gonna charge into the other crew) is to make sure she is delivered in the middle of the enemy crew, after that point she should activate last every turn. She will get some hatred and powerful attacks (and that's another reason to bring a big cache, to keep her on the table as long as possible) Aversion's main role is defend the bubble from models charging into it, but I've never picked them because a smart enemy could use that aura against me and they bring 0 condition play and control, little damage and no scoring potential... I don't think they are worth it tbh, if you want to stay in keyword, the other 2 minions are way better. And some extra things and little tricks I've not seen mentioned yet: Versus enemies with mele range 1, use Misery to position those models into range 2 friendly models (like Teddy or Serena) to further control them. The Mv part of Misery also play well with Hazardous auras (like the Emissary ones or the Rider 4 mask trigger). Another great use of the mobility part of Misery is to move an enemy model to disengage one of your own and be able to interact with some objective or drop a scheme. Keep an eye for Versatiles/OOK able to easily put conditions on the enemy that might be good for the game, that's also free damage (and ) for Pandora or models with the right misery (take a look to things like Widow Weaver, Aeslin, the Grootslang, Adze or even a Rattler for example) Her schemers kind of suck, you need to control/kill the enemy schemers/crew before/while going to scheme yourself. Pandora will lose trying to outscheme any half-decent crew at it. While still not a fan of it, she is one of the best crews to field the IR upgrade; any kind of cheating (which includes Terrifying and her shockwave) will trigger a movement plus extra ping damage. Not for every game, but Pandora with Eldritch Magic is the definitive cleansing machine for your crew; one of the few models in the faction where that upgrade isn't a waste of stones. In this same line but more limited, you may "attack" yourself to remove conditions, for example Kade may lure a slowed model to remove that, any model may remove stunned (if the attack may damage/put a negative condition in the model, don't relent, get the so you have better chances to make it fail and in worst case scenario cheat the attack/defense), Lyssas are actually quite good for this role with their low cost and ofensive stat, specially as they can also debuff staggered, not only stunned. Panora's Despair's Influence is very good (but expensive requiring a card) and a huge enabling ability. For example: She may give herself a mask to have always active her defensive trigger (which will stun and may move out of range of the second attack to most models charging her); if you don't throw Candy into the enemy crew the first turn, a built in crows for Candy could be 3 burnt out triggers for other models (which may let you start the second turn with 3 fast models); Kadde with masks and Teddy near can brutalize any model with guaranteed coordinated attacks from the Bear (the Rider is also good for this) or Both Carver or Kade may get built in Execute. Keep an eye for the best use of this ability. Mind a changeling may use this ability, which opens another trick. give Pandora a crow and slow 3 enemy models with her (you may do it without the Changeling, but she will only get 2 attacks). Don't overlook the 3'' push as it may also reposition Candy's aura or give the carver/kade enough movement to be in Charge/Lure distance of something. Pandora paired with models that stagger (like Puppets, a Cycop or Lyssas) have a quite insane lockdown combo just by activating Grasping Tentacles; most models affected by the condition and the aura will get reduced to the equivalent of Mv 1 or 2 (that's not that useful versus VS giving Leap with the boots tho). About the burnt out trigger; Candy is one of the 2 models of the faction able to give Fast (the other being a Master), try to make good use of it. For example Teddy and Kadde can get a very useful combo with it: Make both fast (you'll need to use Despair's Influence with Pandora or a Changeling), then Kade: Walk, Walk, Lure Teddy, bonus Teddy (which will heal both, make sure to hide the baby behind the bear to avoid losing it). Now you have a fast teddy ready to maul anything nearby (there is an even better version of this combo with Vasilisa, the effigy and a wicked doll). Take in count under some circunstances (usually the first turn when you don't want to throw Candy into the enemy crew or when the key enemy models are already controlled) you might be interested in stunning some of your model to give them Fast with Glimpse of Insanity as it has an 8'' range (Teddy is a great target because trading his triggers and bonus for an extra attack may be worth it, and between armor and Regen he'll get no damage from it; but any model could be good if you have serena near to heal and remove the stun, or you may just remove the stun with a Lyssa or a Sorrow) Candy can combo models like a WWE fighter if you have a few SS to spare and other Misery auras nearby: Use her goody basket on an enemy (better a full Wds one or be ready to cheat a weak card) and get the burn out trigger, that's 3 damage counting her Misery and aside for the trigger isn't hard because isn't opposed. Now Glimpse that model (use Oportunistic to remove Fast for a and a stone to get that trigger again), that's from 2 to 4 damage if Pandora and another Misery aura are in range. Then Self Loathing stoning Hopelessness (which is her Critical strike basically) and getting a again from fast, that's a min 3 or 4 attack depending on the model you are facing. In the best circunstances (Pandora and any other woe nearby) that's 10-11 damage, but with 6 different instances of damage so even high Armored models or models stoning defensively will get chunked, mind you'll need 2-3 stones to guarantee that (only 1 if you give her the crows trigger with Pandora, but you won't always have that card or Pandora's AP avaliable). Another thing about Candy, she has a heal but she isn't a healer. She plays a key role in the control/ofensive part of the crew, need to activate later in the turn to keep her aura active as long as possible and her heal is only 2'' so don't count on her to keep your other models alive (maybe the rider if he is delivering her with ride with me and survive until the end of the turn spending fate tokens); bring Serena if you want a dedicated healer... in a pinch a changeling may copy Candy's heal, but that's not very efficient. The Carver's damage isn't that good in most circunstances, his best part is the Focused control (usually through his ranged abilities). You may "prime" it with fast from Candy/Changelling and a Ram from Pandora, that's not something you should focus on but if you get the right card and some enemy get too agresive thinking Pandora's burst damage isn't that great, that model could get a big surprise. Mind his "Up in flames" trigger as it's a good scheme denial tool. Feed on Fear is also noticeable with the ammount of Wp duels of the crew. Iggy is crystal made and you'll usually use him to annoy enemy schemers with Arson or to drop some schemes in safe places with Reckless; however near of pandora his damage is actually decent for his cost. He becomes basically a min 3 beater for 2 hits (mind he can oportunistic the burning for , again try to use conditions for because the crew has no card draw) and will hit a third time with min 2 (or can engage from afar) if he activates Reckless; he can take no retribution, so make sure the target is worth it or use one of the pings to move the target into another model so it has to waste AP to attack him. Kade kind of has this same problem, he has a big potential but die very to a breeze so it's not easy to use. He is great in tandem with Teddy, but also on his own repositioning the crew and luring models into the bubble while dealing damage at the same time. A best case scenario for him to deal damage is triggering pounce (fast) using a Misery aura and priming him with a mask trigger having a min 3 beater near (or just flip, his 3 triggers are good); but as he is pure glass, you'll need to keep him alive avoiding that model's activation with Mood Swings and keeping him out of the way until the enemy model are controlled. For example, 3 coordinated attacks with a min 3 beater like the rider or teddy is 15 min damage before damage reductions with 6 instances of it and he can move the beater with his bonus; the set up is hard but the damage potential is huge (even higher with the Rider that will get to damage with all those so with the rider it can reach easily 18 damage if all attack connects). If you only want a Lure mind Hinamatsu is a safer choice that can also facetank some enemy models (but more expensive and without the synergies he has with the crew), she is maybe better while learning the ropes. While it's not something you want to force, if the enemy cheats too much (or Candy get in the middle of half of the enemy crew), you have 2 models with Execute (remember Pandora may give triggers and Carver may use SS to buy that trigger). If the enemy has no cards, you may kill any model or eat through his cache very fast (mind this may be a trade if you are stonning) Sorrows are very vulnerable versus big daddy beaters that will kill them with one or two hits; so careful with those. However versus already controlled enemies that cannot threat them, their Life leech and stunned will add a lot to the ping damage and control of the crew; so it's a good model to have. And they are also decent schemer hunters (as long as the enemy schemer is in his SS range and cannot just one shot him), a model that cannot overpower him quickly will lose the fight versus Life leech and Incorporeal (and his stun is great to make all those jumpy models less efficient and Misery loves company to keep up with them). Lyssa's bring it is another way to reposition Pandora or Candy (mind it needs and 8 tho), specially because as those have no mele attack, they won't attack the Lyssa. If you are goint to Lure/bring it your own models a lot, mind a Wicked doll can put adversary in your own models or you may stun your own models to get a to those flips (something critical in a card hungry crew that cannot afford cheating those, the Lyssa can even do it herself if she is within 8'' of the model with her startle). They are cheap and significant models (not bad for droping schemes not far from the bubble) and their built in trigger and stagger are situationally good (tho the stats 4 aren't reliable); plus they are cheap misery auras floating around. If your meta play double master, take a look to the Dreamer or Zoraida as second masters for her. The Dreamer has some condition play (remember Adversary IS a condition) and bring extra models able to give conditions and tank/damage (and with Feed on Fear), on top of having 3 models working well in both crews and not paying the OOK tax (Carver, Teddy and Serena). Another good trick of the Dreamer is the diversion aura as some models rely heavily on the bonus action for mobility or sustain; those can get trapped by him to get further controlled or punished by the crew. Zoraida may bring primed models to the next level (like the Carver with a double Ram or a crow), has some condition shenanigans and is a strong master in general. Enough lol, this is getting too large. I hope it helps and good luck!

I like them as schemers in keyword but not outside of it, but in general I rather summoned Katashiros for that role because it let me keep a stronger combat crew on top of 2 very good schemers (also the fact that "Blown by the wind" cannot fail or force me to cheat is very good...). It's the ability to create shadow markers in remote places why I really consider them tbh, they being good at scheming is just a nice extra; but it's true the oponents matter, most threats for my schemers will try to go close and personal so Stealth isn't that important for me.

Finding the perfect balance has to be tricky... time spent on erratas and good balance is also improving the game and giving the players the feeling they care for their game, which will make players praise and like more the game. That will attract more players in the long run and that's as good as having new and shiny stuff faster. In fact is probably better because new players can bring even more players and will buy all the stuff, not only the new releases; and old players will get more options with the suddenly new viable models/crews meanwhile. Also I don't think they decide what to change 5 mins before each errata... that's a job of months looking at data from tournaments, app and all the forum's "noise", but at that point the main candidates should be clear, it's a matter of how many of those models/crews they feel confortable testing or changing at once... Which was my point, craming a few more in there shouldn't be that big of a deal, because at that point those should be already shorted and they should have an idea of the direction they want to go with them after all that research. I could be wrong, but for me good erratas and balance are better in the long run than faster releases.

Lol, remove also the once per activation from the gun while you are it XD. Seriusly tho, that change to Redchappel killer could be good to give the keyword models some play, but the stat 7 with how safe he can be and his mobility is just bananas. Yep, that was like the entire point of my post... Nothing wrong with it tbh, I'm the first one asking for a bit of love for underwelming crews/models and playing fun, thematic and UP crews in more casual games / versus players with few models that I wouldn't pick ever in more serious games.

I don't think the problem is coherency, the crew seem to have a good focus and a nice theme; the problem is playability/powerlevel. Even if Seamus cannot directly damage someone with a Wp attack, attacking him with a to the terrifying duel will be very hard for most models, he could heal very easily with his non-damaging Wp attack (which may also trigger a mele attack from himself in some particular scenarios) and all those to Wp make easy to direct models towards him to trigger his "Why Hello, Love", into other models to activate "Redchapel Killer" or into a position where he can gun them down more easily. Plus all the Distracted plus Focused removal and Unexpected Ferocity. The problem is that instead of the above is more effective and easy to play to just load up the crew with self-suficient powerhouses, a Focused engine and the emissary to set up the double shot + teleport point.

Neither do I, but I'd be surprised if that costed them something; I'm not saying the profit margin would be huge tho. For the experience I have in playtesting, I doubt a specialiced team is hired specifically assess how viable one particular model is. The devs and a few group of playtesters will get together (which will work for free or for a few goodies at best) and all the changes will get tested at once. The changes in the card are just a bit of text changed or some extra ability or action that they should have a template for; so it's close to copy paste. In the context of an ongoing errata, adding a few extra models to that process cost next to nothing, (but as said above there is a limit, the more models, the less playtesting each one will get) I agree too many models each errata (or erratas too often) is tiresome; but I've gave up games for compromising balance rather than for making too many changes at once. But anyway, I guess they know what they are doing and want the best for the game because in general things are working well. I was just disagreeing with the idea that revisiting a few models in the context of an errata would be inviable or too costly.

The only one without a damaging Wp attack!?? Outrageous and unplayable! Seamus 2.0