Maniacal_cackle

Good thoughts, still thinking this through! To clarify, though, you're referencing a pulse ability. I assume this is the mine, but I don't think anyone has quoted the mine text yet. I don't actually know what that ability does. Would you mind pointing out where I can find it (or quoting it here)? Thanks! @santaclaws01 I explain it much better in my next comment, sorry, the one you're quoting ended up being a bit incoherent, as I discovered some inconsistencies while making the next comment.

@Adran, that all makes sense as a possible interpretation, but basically I reject it with the following line of reasoning: Damage and sequential effects are all part of a broader category (Timing, page 34 of beta rulebook). Sequential effects specifically states "Sometimes, an effect will create additional effects as it resolves. In these cases, fully resolve the initial effect before moving onto any additional effect. Additional effects are then resolved in the order they were generated, after any effects which have been previously generated have been resolved. When considering the issue of a model dying (or taking damage for black blood), I would consider this to fall under sequential effects. So if a model dies, and effects are generated, how do we handle it? By default, from my reading of the rules, any new effects are basically put into the queue - they will resolve in the order they were generated. Some effects will skip the queue (for instance, 6a offers a way to break the normal order of things). Combining these lines of reasoning, I would see: The model with demise (damage) goes through the process of dying. At 6c, this results in other damage being applied to other models. You place this damage into the resolve queue. You are told to 'resolve' an effect (demise damage), but there are multiple things you're supposed to be resolving (the demise damage and the death of the demise model). When this is the case, you refer to how to resolve multiple effects: you resolve the one that happened first. How then does a demise (heal) work? Well, 6a specifically includes a way to break the chain and skip to the demise (heal). If resolving an effect in 6a would result in saving the model, it provides a way to exit the normal resolution order. As for the page 25 "killed" rules, I see those as merely foreshadowing the exact timing rules that come later ("if a model is healed after it was killed as a result of being reduced to 0 health, it no longer counts as killed"). This to me is repetition of the 6a rule, not a separate ruling unless I'm missing something.

EDIT: Suggest skipping this comment and going to the next one. It's a much better breakdown. I'm saying sequential timing applies to the damage suffered by the two models (since the damage occurs at separate times). For other effects that happen because of the damage, they have a process outlined on page 34. Section 6 is relevant here: 6a: resolves heal effects on the killed or replaced model 6b: resolve any after killing triggers 6c: any effects that resolve after the model is killed resolve 6d: remove the model Demise abilities clearly fit into 6c (or 6a if a heal). This process clearly lines out how you would include a demise ability (it fits into the language of what is happening). You would resolve the demise ability that deals the damage (applying two damage to the other model), but you don't go through the damage resolution process until later (it just enters a queue waiting its turn to be resolved from what I can tell, as that is how the rules tell you to handle damage. If the damage occurs at the same time, resolve it simultaneously. If not, then do it sequentially). So the damage is applied during 6c from demise causing an explosion, but I don't see why you'd go through steps 1-6 for the damage from the explosion yet (you're not finished resolving all the damage that has happened so far). EDIT: Actually, I think only demise (heals) will fully resolve before death. Otherwise they're put into the resolve queue, see below for elaboration.

@Kadeton, I thought of Schrodinger too xD Although I still don't get what the justification for resolving B's death in the middle of A's death is. True, the rules of damage progression clearly intend that if models suffer damage at the same time, you resolve them side by side. But if a model receives damage after another, then you have to fully resolve the damage to the first one is my interpretation. From what I can see, the two models aren't receiving simultaneous damage (one of them happens after, as a result of damage to the first one). As a result, they're resolved sequentially, not simultaneously. That is, you complete steps 1-6 for the first model, and then move to step 1 (soulstone use) for the model that took damage from the first model's death. You don't even start the process for the second model until the first model is off the table from what I can see?

Do Seamus and Reva have alt crews? One of the big barriers for me playing Seamus is the models, so curious about that!

If the Drachen had a demise ability, it would fit either into A6a (if a heal) or A6c (effects upon death), as demise is an ability that is associated with the model's own death. If a demise was happening related to another model's death (such as "demise: heal all models within 4 inches", then it wouldn't be relevant). So I'm not sure I understand your claim that the interpretation I've proposed above precludes demise abilities. There's nested layers here. You resolve the death in the listed way (which specifically includes text that would include the model's demise ability, but doesn't seem to care what is going on with other models at the time).

Also worth citing this part of page 34 of the beta rulebook: So when resolving step 6, you're supposed to resolve it entirely for a model before moving on to the next one. So I think my interpretation of resolving A6d before B6a is correct. And actually, if a few other models all died alongside Drachen A, I think you'd have to resolve their deaths before Drachen B as well (as it's damage is received after others, so it doesn't even get to step 1 before all the other models get resolved as well I think).

Got a hold of the Drachen Trooper rules, so to put it all together. Drachen Trooper, note this is NOT a trigger. It is an effect, I believe is the language the game seems to use: Servant of Dark Powers upgrade (again, not a trigger, just an effect) Right, so now we can run this through the process: 6a: resolves heal effects on the killed or replaced model 6b: resolve any after killing triggers 6c: any effects that resolve after the model is killed resolve 6d: remove the model Drachen Trooper dies to an enemy attacking (you originally said mine, what's a mine?). So I'll just work with dying to an attack for now. Let's assume another Drachen Trooper with the same upgrades. Drachen B attacks Drachen A. Sooo... A6a: Drachen A has heal effects effects resolved. It hasn't yet killed anything, so doesn't heal up at this stage. A6b: resolve any after killing triggers (unless the enemy model has some, there's no triggers). A6c: any effects that resolve after Drachen Trooper is killed resolve (blast damage happens, other model takes lethal damage). EDIT: Actually, I think Drachen B heals up at this stage, so likely never even reaches a death chain of its own. A6d: remove the Drachen Trooper A. Oh damn, model B has died (EDIT: or possibly not, see above). B6a: Drachen B has heal effects resolve (it just killed a dude, so it heals up). It doesn't die, so the chain terminates. Or if Drachen B doesn't have the heal upgrade, it goes through the chain until B is dead (which would heal Drachen A at B6c, but Drachen A is already off the table). What am I missing here? At what stage does Drachen A actually get to heal up? It doesn't happen at A6a (he hasn't killed anything yet), it doesn't happen at A6b (the upgrade power is not a trigger. Heal effects get resolved in 6a). It doesn't happen in A6c (he kills Drachen B, but the resulting heal happens at stage B6c). The heal would happen in B6c if it reached that point, but the Drachen A is removed before that point ever happens anyway.

Haha, what a weird quirk of the rules. EDIT: I posted a more precise version with the exact model in question below if you want to skip this post and read the more precise version in the next comment. Leaving this up as I reference parts of it. I can see the argument presented here, but am confused as to why the heal effect necessarily resolves? 6a: resolves heal effects on the killed or replaced model 6b: resolve any after killing triggers 6c: any effects that resolve after the model is killed resolve 6d: remove the model Let's say B kills A, and starts the chain. Here is what I see happening. A6a: resolve heal effects on A. A6b: resolve after killing triggers for B (that is, things with a suit, NOT things on front of card with no suit). A6c: resolve things that happen on death (A explodes, kills B). A6d: remove model A. Check game state, B has been killed and not been resolved. Resolve it now. B6a: resolve heal effects on B. B6b: resolve after killing triggers (there are none, unless a suit is involved. Even if this results in a heal for A, you can't heal a model after it is removed from the table). B6c: if B6a didn't heal this model sufficiently to stay alive, it dies. B6d: remove model of applicable. The conventional wisdom seems to be the order is: A6a > A6b > A6c > B dies, resolve all B6 stuff, heals A back up. I see it as A6 resolving completely, THEN B6 resolving. See beta rules page 34 - when an effect resolves, the entire effect resolves. If B dies during resolving A's death, you have to finish resolving A's death before resolving B's. If disagreeing, please cite the rules of the move in question. I'm on my phone and can't look up models and their moves easily! But to me, the key question seems to be can one model's death start resolving while another model's death is still resolving? I'd say no (from page 34 of beta rules), in which case these heals might be in the pipeline, but not actually resolve before the model is removed.

Just don't put the suffering damage in italics. I don't see the model taking damage from the trigger directly. The model is taking damage from choosing to pay a cost. As an example: What if a trigger pushes you into some hazardous terrain? Are you taking damage from the action or from the terrain? It stemmed from the action, but I wouldn't say incorporeal applies.

I'd still interpret it as incorporeal not applying. The damage that the model suffers is in italics on the trigger; it is a cost. If a model is paying a cost, it's not suffering damage from the attack, but just paying a cost. Nor is the damage coming from the trigger. As the damage isn't coming from an attack action or trigger, it doesn't get reduced. Compare this to, for example, a stitched together using gamble your life. There the model deals damage to itself with a tactical action, so is damaging itself with its own action.

Note that won't be tournament legal if it doesn't meet the Wyrd requirements (from memory, only 1/3 of the model can come from other companies?), but I can't imagine your local group would be fussed!

One thing I think I should emphasise more: the activation advantage provided by constructive criticism: Consider a situation where you and an opponent both have the same number of models (say 8), and you are able to win initiative and force them to go first on turn 1. Their turn 1 looks like this: Activate 8 models Your turn 1 looks like this: Activate 2 models Activate Molly, constructive criticism twice (activate fading twice), possibly use bonus action for more fading (but unlikely that you'll have that many cards). Miscellaneous action. Activate 2 models again (opponent now activates sixth model). Activated 2 more models (opponent now activates final model). Activate 3 models after you opponent has fully activated!! This is hugely potent for a few reasons. One, the extra activations and fading triggers are useful. For instance, I often move rabble risers 5", then focus for each of their two activations on turn 1. This means they end turn 1 with 3-4 focus and 10" of move, meaning they're still with the crew and not too far in a dangerous spot on their own, and have enough focus to last the game. Night Terrors can potentially move ~32" in turn 1 (and they can take philip & the nanny!). But even more important than the direct buff to the recipient of constructive criticism IMO is that last bullet point: activating 2-3 models after your opponent has fully finished! A lot of the crew is quite squishy if they move and then the opponent gets to attack them the same turn. Archie relies on healing up each turn, Philip and the Nanny relies on manipulative, etc. Getting to send Archie in with your opponent having no opportunity to counterattack until the next turn is very potent. It just opens up so many positioning possibilities for turns 1 and sometimes 2 (when you generally want to take the last activation). IMO, this interaction is critical to understanding why you need at least one minion type that benefits from constructive criticism. Looks like Saduhem above prefers night terrors, while I prefer rabble risers. Of course, the true answer is probably that you want both, as some will be better for some matchups. If not for CC, I'd consider rabble risers a bit subpar.

I mostly agree with this, but also note that a viable strategy is to plan to deny your opponent throughout the game. If your opponent only gets bombs on turns 1, 2, and 3, and you get bombs on 3, 4, and 5, you're equal on points. In general earlier is better, but there's some viable strats that go the other way (I suspect. So far I've only played the bomb rush strategy as it's what fits my crew).

Welcome to Molly! Forgotten is an awesome keyword, and you'll need to make a few decisions about your crew: Overall recommendation: Buy the Pirate crew box + Archie (if you're after the pirate theme). From there, play a few practice games, and then make some decisions about your crew. At a minimum for full games, you'll need pirate box + Archie + a scheme runner box. Some decisions you'll face: Archie Do you take Archie with a hat, or do you take Archie without a hat? Given you want to go pirate theme, I recommend the hat. You always take Archie. Other beaters The consensus seems to be that you want at least one other beater, sometimes more (such as in Reckoning). Most people on the forum favour the Rogue Necromancy. Personally I prefer 2x rabble risers. Making full use of constructive criticisms and the activation advantage is key to the crew, IMO, and it is hard to do that in a useful way without rabble risers. The pirate box comes with rabble risers, so I suggest you try this version first if you're buying them anyway. Other beater options include the Dead Rider, Manos, and recently I've become very keen to try a Grave Golem + Grave Digger (but this is something few others are sold on so far). Note I'm a bit biased against the Rogue Necromancy as I don't want to spend ~$45NZ on a beater that is generally inferior to Archie (who is half the cost). Scheme runners You need some scheme runners, so you can pick up either crooligans or night terrors (or both). Crooligans rely heavily on positioning of your non-minions, while night terrors rely on you making them discard cards to move (such as using Molly's constructive criticism to give them a discard + an extra activation). If you have a rabble riser crew, you already have a way to use Molly's constructive criticism usefully. If you don't want to use rabble risers, I imagine Night Terrors become a nice fit for the crew. I use rabble risers/crooligans, and there's been very few games where I thought "I'd rather have night terrors than crooligans this game." Also note that crooligans need non-minion forgotten to teleport to, so if you have a crew that uses lots of versatile/OOK, crooligans get weaker. Overall, crooligans are the best fit for me (because I use rabble risers and have plenty of models for them to teleport to), but be mindful of whether they fit YOUR crew. Also note you almost never set up crooligans using 'from the shadows.' Losing the early interact is too painful, and they can already teleport wherever they need to go with 'by your side.' Crooligans often focus and/or drop a scheme marker when they're not doing anything specific, and then teleport when needed (not all on the same turn, or your hand suffers). Other models Philip and the Nanny is widely condemned on the (beta) forums, but not many people have tested them after the launch buff (+ to flips on the charge). However, I find them to be an extremely strong model in plant explosives and henchmen hardcore, even before the buff. Your mileage may vary - almost everyone agrees P&N isn't a great model. It's definitely a bit useless in smaller soulstone games (outside of HH), and is not a good fit for all strategies. However, I find a mobile, durable model that dishes out tons of slows and acts as a beacon for crooligans has some uses. Forgotten Marshal is an enforcer summoner, meaning you can't use soulstones to get your suit for the flip. As such, I think most people consider it pretty sub-par at summoning. And in a crew where you could just hire Kirai as a second master, it makes FM an especially questionable choice. However, people often don't talk about the Marshal's shooting ability, which is something I occasionally think "I really wish I had a forgotten marshal for its shooting ability." Consider the model as an entire package when eyeing it up, but again, I think most people are not very fond of the FM. Some sample lists: Here are some sample lists I've used. Note this is not fully optimal, as I don't own all the models, and some of this is theorycraft. I also don't own out of keyword models, which would sometimes be hugely useful. Also, I often play less than 50 soulstones, so not fully certain on all of these. I also don't account for schemes, which always shift things a bit. Plant explosives - Strong fit for the keyword Molly Squidpiddge Necrotic Machine Philip and the Nanny Archie Rabble Riser x2 Crooligan x3 9 soulstones on upgrades and cache. Here, the bombs go on three crooligans, archie, & P&N. With archie and P&N trying to cross the centreline, and sometimes the necrotic machine, you have plenty of options for teleporting in crooligans to drop their bombs. I generally use Molly and the rabble risers to slow down the enemy crew, and sometimes the machine hangs back to assist them. After crooligans drop off their bombs, they can teleport back and steal enemy bombs and run off with them. Corrupted Idols - Strong fit for the keyword Molly Squidpiddge Necrotic Machine Archie w/ Grave Spirit's Touch Crooligan w/ Grave Spirit's Touch Crooligan Rabble Riser x2 Rogue Necromancy (Or P&N) 7 stones for other upgrades/models/cache Archie and the Crooligan with GST are the primary movers of corrupted idols. Crooligan number 2 swaps between dropping scheme markers for Molly to eat and getting idols when other models can't. Molly uses 'lost knowledge' and 'The Gorgon's Influence' to draw as many cards as possible; the objective is to get the cards you need to cheat on initiative to place idols where you need to. You can drown most crews in card advantage and control placement of the idols. From there, winning is simply a matter of capitalising on that advantage and defending yourself where necessary (thus the risers + RN). Reckoning - Decent fit for the keyword Molly Squidpiddge Necrotic Machine Archie Dr. McMourning/Rogue Necromancy Grave Golem Gravedigger Night Terror/Crooligan 5+ stones for upgrades/cache. This list basically aims to make it extremely hard to score reckoning points (Archie can be hard to kill if he doesn't want to be caught, masters are durable, grave golem can't die, etc). I've not had a chance to filed it yet (as I'm missing 3 of the models), but it seems like a pretty solid list. The night terror/crooligan/grave digger are there to assist with scheming - might need more, depending on how hard the schemes are to get. Note that if the scheme is 'dig their graves,' you are in a very solid position to score both points on it easily. Note there's a big difference between 2 and 3 small models (2 makes it hard to score the first two reckoning points off them), and a big difference between 5 and 6 (because of the third point). Try to structure the crew to make it awkward to score the 2nd or 3rd point without killing a master. For this crew, I make it awkward by having the scheme runners hide in awkward places - they're both very mobile, and if you pick the right schemes, they don't need to go anywhere dangerous. That's in theory, anyway. More realistically, here is what I currently run for Reckoning: Molly Squidpiddge Necrotic Machine Archie Philip and the Nanny (or borrow Rogue Necromancy) Rabble Riser x3 Crooligan x2 7 stones for upgrades/cache This is what I have the models for, and find it can be pretty good. The rabble risers and Archie give quite a bit of killing power, and crooligans make surprisingly good assassins. I stay pretty scheme focused for scoring/denying points, and dance around the enemy a bit to avoid getting my crew smashed too hard (since they're all pretty fragile, even Archie). P&N really helps with dishing out slows, but the RN is far superior for reckoning when possible. Etc. I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea! I didn't list anything for Turf War, but I'm not very good at that one with molly yet. I wouldn't say there's any strategies Molly is awful at (unlike some keywords), and she is truly fantastic at explosives & idols IMO. I hope this helps! Take my opinions with a grain of salt, though. As I said, a lot of the forums disagree with some of my model analysis (I overvalue P&N and Rabble Risers compared to most of the forums, and undervalue Rogue Necromancy/other 10SS+ beaters).

Thanks for the insights all! I've been playing weekly since April or so, and so feel like I have a pretty good handle on Molly. The advice here has definitely encouraged me to branch out, and I'll at least try Neverborn! I'm also asking the local TO if tournaments tend to be fixed-faction. That'll make a big difference to my eventual decisions as well.

In plant explosives, can a minion already carrying an explosive pick up another one? What if that minion kills a model carrying an explosive? Can they grab the new one? The setup instructions say that a minion can only have one bomb placed on them, but it is a bit ambiguous. The wording seems geared towards setup. My interpretation is you can only place a single bomb on each minion at setup, but after all they are free to do any of the things that result in them carrying more. Is that correct?

Cheers. I guess rabble risers are just little machine-gun-style whirling balls of death! Good to know, I'm sure this will come up more as I start to keep an eye out for moderate masks triggers!

I'm trying to decide between Ressers and Neverborn as my faction, and would appreciate some input! I'm hoping insights from these lovely forums will help me settle on a decision. I'd like to focus on one faction if possible to get maximum use of cool models (for instance, if I get a grave golem, I want to be sure I can field it in any of my crews). I currently have purchased Molly's crew box, some rabble risers, and Archie. So have started investing into Ressers, but not so much that it's too late to swap. So to narrow it down to one faction, here's some of the advantages of each: Ressers I absolutely adore Molly/the Forgotten keyword. 'By your side' is likely my favourite ability in the game, and the crew excels at scheme denial and has neat synergies. Her ability to interact with control hands in an unusual way is also great. She just feels like such an unconventional playstyle (compared to say Dr McMourning and many other crews that seem to primarily just do stuff to the board/combat). The rest of the masters/keywords in Ressers are a bit meh to me. I quite like Jack Daw, but that's about it. If I did pick up Jack Daw and his crew, I'd be pretty much set for any strategy, I think. I like a lot of sporadic models in the faction (a lot of Reva's stuff and Kirai's, grave golem, grave diggers, etc), just not the crews they fit into. I notice as I learn the game more, more and more masters/playstyles appeal to me. So maybe other Ressers will grow on me. I think it is the models themselves putting me off a lot of the masters. I hate playing human-heavy crews, but also enjoy painting dead flesh. But the crews just seem a bit too human-heavy (even if they're dead humans). Jack Daw appeals despite that tendency, for some reason (maybe because they're past human into creepy models). Neverborn I quite like 5-6 of the Masters/keywords in this faction (Dreamer, Titania, Pandora, Marcus, and could see playing others). The versatile models/cross keyword models don't appeal to me so much - although that was true of Ressers at first. The Neverborn seem like some of them are a bit 'anti-fun' (Dreamer snowballs super hard, Titania hits like a truck, etc) for my opponent, which is a consideration. I've already purchased three resser boxes (Molly crew, rabble risers, Archie), but that's a bit of a sunk cost fallacy. There seems to be a lot of quirky synergies and ways of interacting with the game in interesting ways (Dreamer lucid dreams, Pandora conditions, Widow Weaver teleports, etc). The crews in general seem to have really interesting rule sets. The models are fantastic. A great range of quirky, creepy, and bizarre. I also like the look of some random crews like Nellie Cochrane's - maybe I just like journalists xD My worry is that I quite like Ressers so far, but may find there is not much room for 'growth.' I'm wondering if I would do better to pick up my second master as a neverborn, leaving me better situated to grow into a Neverborn player if I keep collecting. I'm a bit worried I'll invest too much into various Resser models and then not want to play any crew but Molly and Jack Daw. With Neverborn, I'd swap around a bit more, but I'm not sure if there's a single master I like as much as Molly. How have you more experienced folks handled this? Just pick up whatever models you like at the time? Or do you try to have a wider plan for it?I quite like the idea of getting a lot of bang for my buck - I don't have that much money, so when I buy a model, I want it to be relevant for as many crews as possible. Any suggestions are welcome! Thanks in advance.

Can a rabble riser use quick reflexes and then flurry (or vice versa)? I seem to recall that you can't chain attacks, but can't remember where in the rules that is. You can't chain activations beyond the first bonus one, but what about stuff like this? If you can combine them, does that mean charge > attack > quick reflexes > flurry > quick reflexes is four attacks for one action? Had the stars align today and it came up. We ruled it didn't seem right so I didn't do it. But was hoping for something more official.

Would tossing Archie and 0-2 crooligans into a list with Jack Daw help with the mobility issue? I already have Forgotten as my first crew, so if the answer is yet, I'd be ready to play Daw with just his crew box potentially? Or would I have to get at least hanged on top of that?

Yeah, they're super gorgeous, but also annoying that you can only get the rotating discs for the X conditions like poison. Would much rather just have a single chip. If you order them on a desktop, should be easy to pick the quantity you want of each, though. I personally think that's better than bundles, where you often end up with inconvenient numbers of things.

Any suggestions for getting your own printed? My local library has a laser cutter, so I just need to hand them the images! Also like the idea of wooden tokens, although I like those plastic ones as well.

Positioning is key against anything that hits hard. If you force him to spend a lot of resources (aka, actions to move) chasing you down before he attacks, it should go a long way. Also, denying him his WP wins early on should help stop his summoned models coming down too early, I would think? He really relies on winning WP duels to summon his dudes.

When I first started Malifaux, I worried it would be a bit 'pay-to-win.' In practice, I am not finding it too bad (though suspect it can get a bit 'pay-to-win' at the tournament level). Most people at my club have one crew/keyword (and don't even own all the models in that keyword). Nevertheless, you can build your crew to fit pretty much any scenario. I, for example, bought Molly's crew box, Archie, and some rabble risers. With that crew, I can build to any strategy - being very good for plant explosives and corrupted idols, and decent to good at turf war and reckoning. It is also a very skill intense game, so it is very easy to make up theoretical weaknesses by outskilling your opponent. If I wanted to go to the competitive level, it seems to me a good plan is to have two masters/keywords that cover all your bases (for instance, I'd want a second master that covers reckoning and turf war). Unless your gaming group is full of min-maxers, you'll be fine. Do note however that there are a LOT of niche models that are particularly good for one matchup/strategy/scheme (or combinations of models). If you wanted to have a fully optimised crew every time, you'd have to own a large portion of the faction and it would get very expensive. But unless you're shooting for this very top tier of play, I'd say you'll be fine. Molly will cover all my bases most of the time, but some matchups I might want to toss in a nurse, or gravedigger, grave golem, sloth, etc. The bigger issue from a cost perspective is the game is pretty addictive. I don't NEED another 5 masters/crews to be competitive and win games. But they're all so awesome that I WANT them.