Kharnage

"If a game effect references the amount of damage suffered, it is referring to the amount of damage suffered after damage reduction. " Page 24, under Damage. Actually, @Raimu, you're right. I stand corrected. So it could only ever deal 1 extra damage with Necrotic Decay, expressly because of Incorporeal. That makes Ashes and Dust less scary.

It's literally coming from the verbiage in a trigger, on an attack action. I'm not sure how much more that could possibly apply. Let's say they *wanted* it to interact with incorporeal's damage reduction from attacks, how could they have possibly worded that differently to improve the interpretation? I'm not saying that I'm super excited about him getting to deal 4 damage min for 1 health spent, but that's how that reads. In the same way that most damaging attacks read "Target suffers 3/5/6 damage", a cost saying "this model may suffer up to 2 damage" on an attack action would interact with Incorporeal in exactly the same way. If they wanted it to cost like what we wanted it to, it would say irreducible damage. As for Gamble Your Life, the damage suffered is not a cost. It is an effect. You can kill yourself with it. AND it's a Tactical Action, so Incorporeal, if it somehow had it, wouldn't apply. It would fully damage Ashes and Dust, for example. However, Armor, can and does reduce the damage it suffers from Gamble Your Life, even though it's damaging itself. I'm not actually sure what meaning this comparison had.

I realize we can't all serve God Empress Nekima, but the general plan for me is that Dreamer builds up steam over the course of the game, ergo start bludgeoning him and his Stitched to death as early and quickly as possible. He has very little card draw (bloody fate on Stitched I think is all of it) and has duels that he needs to pass to do things, so Protected becomes more annoying and costly the more you directly attack him. Serene Countenance is annoying, but you only have to burn your Focus (you have Focus, right?) the instant you know that he didn't toss off the attack, at which point that 7 health pool is feeling pretty paper thin. Don't try to run schemes early, because you need as many AP falling into his Protected hand as you possibly can, because once he runs out of cards, he crumbles. Also, Stitched Together aren't that difficult to bring down, and they're the only models that can use those severe cards he's farming.

I would say it's because of "There are some game effects that can Heal a model after it has been killed. If a model is Healed after it was killed as a result of being reduced to 0 Health, it no longer counts as killed (and is not removed from the game). Any other effects that would happen as the result of the model being killed do not occur." The underlined bit makes it stop the resolution of effects entirely once the heal occurs.

True. The "After Killing" trigger would occur in step 6b, generating a no-heal aura, and the Drache Trooper would not heal in step 6c. Though the summoned Abomination, and Leveticus, would both suffer the Demise effects

The problem is, the general rule of "if a model killed by reducing to 0 wounds is healed, it is no longer killed" doesn't have a timing. Because it's a general rule under Killed on page 25, it would go off any time, even during 6c. @solkan is right, 6a second sentence is redundant. So the Demises would happen, then the healing from killing would happening, then all other queued death effects would stop, as per the wording under killed "If a model is Healed after it was killed as a result of being reduced to 0 Health, it no longer counts as killed (and is not removed from the game). Any other effects that would happen as the result of the model being killed do not occur". So, the Drache Troopers can be Phoenix Troopers, rising from the ashes of their own Demise.

Interesting point. Though, is there anywhere else that it specifically says "if it heals, it is not killed" other than step 6a of the damage timing? Otherwise, it's possible that the model would heal, but being killed would resolve anyway, yeah? Or is there a "If a model is above 0 wounds, it isn't considered killed" clause somewhere else?

I'm not sure what the order on all of this is, but I know when Nekima dies, if she black bloods on something and kills it, it'll heal her out of being dead. With Drache Troopers, let's say I stacked on some mines, and he explodes on death, dealing 4 damage and 2 burning to models near him, killing a nearby model, and he has the Servant of Dark Powers upgrade. Servant of Dark Powers says when he kills things, he heals 2. Is he now alive?

But they did tho

I'm imagining a Forgotten Marshal conversion where he's pulling a Skellywag out of a treasure chest to go along with it 😍

The "Editorial Oversights" continue in the example about duels with Basse and Pandora, with the following quotes: "As this duel has only a TN, it is a simple duel and only requires Basse to flip cards and make decisions." A single, simple duel, if your interpretation of only cards chosen in conflict count as 'flipped', would have read "Requires Basse to flip a card" even if he burns a soulstone as he does in the example. Later in the example: "Neither model chooses to use Soulstones, so they each flip a single card." There's no point in specifying a single card, if you can only ever count as flipping a single card. 4 Editorial oversights in the final print concerning whether or not you "flip" multiple cards is a bit much. If they wanted it to function as you say, they had plenty of opportunity to clarify that. But they actually go so far as to clarify *against* that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "cheat those cards directly"? Can you clarify?

I disagree here. You're confusing being flipped for being placed into conflict. For example, for reflipping cards, the Core rules say this: "Sometimes, an effect will instruct a player to “reflip” one or more cards. When this occurs, the player discards the originally flipped card(s) and flips a new card from their Fate Deck" This clearly implies that multiple cards can be flipped for a single duel, whether they're placed into the conflict or not is irrelevant; they're flipped. This matters greatly for Jakob Lynch's Trump Cards as well, since aces being "flipped" granting Brilliance Tokens goes from decent to complete garbage depending on the prevailing interpretation here. EDIT: Additional proof of "flip" being multiple cards, not the cards in conflict; the wording on maximum number of cards you can reveal: "You may never reveal more than four cards as the result of Fate Modifiers. Any additional cards that would result from Fate Modifiers are not flipped."

A Young Nephilim attacks a Beckoner. The Beckoner flips an ace for a total of 5, but the Young flips the red joker and the black joker to hit, for a total of 5. The RAW reads "The Jokers affect the ways in which a player can Cheat Fate. A player cannot Cheat Fate if they flipped the Black Joker. Additionally, if their opponent flipped the Red Joker on an opposed duel, they cannot Cheat Fate on their own flip." The only black-and-red clarification that I can find is "As long as the Black Joker is not also revealed, the Red Joker may always be chosen during a flip, even if there are one or more cards revealed because of - Fate Modifiers." So my question is, can the beckoner cheat to dodge the young's total attack of 5, or can she not, because the young also flipped the red, even though he must take the black? EDIT: Changed guard patrol to beckoner because I can't read.

So originally, my title for the one true master of the Nephilim, God Empress Nekima, was something to amuse myself and show my support for the shift of master. But now, the more I think about it, the more I desperately crave the idea; What if a Nephilim Nightmare box was to feature the Nephilim not as demons, but as angelic figures? The original biblical reference for Nephilim, Genesis 6:4, basically calls Nephilim the offspring of angels and humans. They have wings, and some have swords, and Lilith's totem is an actual Cherub so the Tots would just be wingless cherubs... Nekima would have some cool glowy halo thing and a glowing flaming sword... it could work, is all I'm saying. I would pay big dollars for a box I could play with legally at tournament. What other cool/funny Nightmare box alt ideas do people have rolling around in their heads?

Because he bases himself on handing out upgrades, I think the Hodgepodge Emissary/Effigy is the least useful pair to benefit from Effigy of Fate. He doesn't really turn into a damage dealing power house when he finishes eating his Wheaties either, so I'd say the 4 stone difference is worth the upgrades, auras, and HP in those crucial early turns.

To be honest with you, growing mid-range Nephilim into Matures is going to be much more common/likely than growing Tots. The most likely growth scenario, as @Barmution mentioned, is growing Shamans into Matures. It's the greatest increase in stone value (6 stones to 10!) and they buff your whole crew when they eat corpse markers, instead of just healing themselves like most Nephilim. They also can generate their own corpse markers. I run Hayreddin in every game of Nephilim I play, and I usually throw up the "Summon Tots on black blood death" aura every turn (usually on a good turn, Hayreddin's still hurting himself with Necrotic Decay, so taking his other fast action to lose more HP with Blood for Blood is ballsy) and I think I've summoned like, 6 tots over the course of his 12ish game career. It's nice when you can set it up, but I wouldn't gun for it unless it's convenient. The big thing Hayreddin can contribute to Growth is Blood Sacrifice trigger on his shotgun; if you have no masks in hand to get it on Shamans, you can at least stone for it and shoot probably Nekima to get another corpse marker, dealing only 1 actual damage in the process. That way between the Blood Hunter (totem for Nekima, was in the beta, but not fully released yet) and Hayreddin you've got a pretty decent shot at 2 corpses turn 1 for each Shaman (I almost always run 2) to pulse out Focused with. Not only is Nekima with 2 free Focus downright scary, but it means they only need one more corpse to go full Mature. Sometimes they actually serve greater purpose by being shamans though, between Pustule, Blood Clot, and being able to hand out even more Focused, so I don't always grow them. If you wanted to, you could use Nekima's throw corpse Fast Food trigger to grow people faster early, but honestly costing her movement to feed people is a big ask into most crews. She needs to be beating face as quickly as possible.

No, the buried models don't have range or LoS to draw because they're not on the table. The Bandersnatch for example specifically adds rules so that it can see and attack while buried.

So tonight, I played Seamus with The Whisper Copycat Killer Mourner w/ Grave Spirit's Touch Mourner w/ Grave Spirit's Touch Rotten Belle Rotten Belle Carrion Effigy Sybelle 8 stones I played into Viktoria Chambers w/ Servant of Dark Powers Viktoria Chambers w/ Servant of Dark Powers Ronin Ronin Ronin Prospector Prospector Prospector 10 stones Standard Deployment, Strategy was Turf War, and I picked Hold up their Forces and Vendetta (Sybelle -> Not Leader Viktoria), he picked Outflank and Claim Jump (Prospector) Final score was 4-4, each of us not scoring the end game points of our schemes, and only two points for the strategy. Board had enough chest-high blocking walls and buildings for Seamus to have a good free run of the map, while still not being so choked that the Viks couldn't charge things. Turn 1 the Viktorias did their 6 inch Dark Powers move and 2 inch push, and basically the Mourners pulsed out Blasphemous Ritual from their dropped free corpses while Viktorias waited for something to move up to charge. Seamus teleported up, shot one of the Viks, and stunned them forward for a free Hello Love attack, injured the same Vik, stabbed her again, and then teleported back with a Cause for Celebration. Not seeing this as an equivalent exchange, the Viks charged my forwardly placed sacrificial Belle, and forgot they had Disguised here (never again) and yet still, because of stun and the distance they had to cover, took both of their activations to kill her. The mourners, Sybelle, and the Carrion Effigy put one Vik down (funny what Decay aura does to Viks), and brought the other down to half HP. The Ronin and Prospectors move up the board after turning their 2 Turf War markers, digging soulstones for the Viks to use as they go, and the other Rotten Belle turns one of my Turf War markers. Turn 2, The remaining Vik kills the Carrion Effigy, and the neg twisted Terrifying 11 (because of her + to wp from dead sister) on one of the Mourners, healing to full. Sybelle, Seamus, and a Mourner bring her down to 1 HP afterwards, scoring Vendetta in the process. A Ronin walk-charges in, fails terrifying on Sybelle, and suicides for more stones (The Viks are up to 18 stones burned at the end of turn 2) and a second Ronin walks-charges in, fails terrifying on Seamus. Remaining Ronin that was further away from the scrap approaches closer, and Prospectors take the sides and middle of the map for Claim Jump and Outflank. The surviving Belle approaches the Seamus-Ronin for hold up while Sybelle holds up living Vik. We each score the strategy. Turn 3, Vik player flips his third king for initiative, Vik goes, kills Mourner and damages Sybelle for 4, healing a bit. Seamus manages to miss all but one swing of his four attacks, but the Belle charges in, hitting and pushing the Vik for Fast on the Belle, Focus on the Belle from Sybelle, and a free attack from Seamus (also missed). The 2nd and 3rd AP also yields hits for 3 damage a piece, totaling 8 damage in an activation (before stone use). Sybelle also whacks Vik with the push trigger, Seamus kills the Vik, Belle gets more focus and Fast again. Ronin hopped out, shoots Belle twice, hits once for min damage. Prospectors stay away from the fight, content to farm more stones. Copycat swaps Seamus to a Turf War marker for next turn. Turn 4, Vik player flips fourth king for initiative, moves Claim Jump Prospector back. Seamus flips Turf War marker, teleports up, focuses, and Cause For Celebration shoots Claim Jump Prospector to death. Sybelle and Copycat kill the last ronin, but right flank Prospector manages to bring Sybelle below half, preventing 2nd point of Vendetta. Belle walks-walks-interacts since she had Fast from last turn to get second Turf War point. Turn 5, Seamus actually wins initiative, kills left flank Prospector but can't switch a Turf War marker he hasn't already switched, we call it since neither of us can score anything more, 4-4. Seamus is crazy. Gun is awesome, Intuition makes it reliable, and comboing Hello Love with the rest of his crew like M2e pounce is cake. The injured +1 on his melee seals the deal on his kit for me. Belles did what I thought Belles would do for 5 stones. Eating 2 master's worth of efforts turn 1 out of a 5 stone model (and should have done more, had I remember Disguised earlier!) was wonderful. Then, the damage came out strong with the Scarlet Temptation from Sybelle to put some major hurt on the second Vik. The extra AP from Pounce also scored me my second strategy point. Sybelle also impressed me. While Undivided Attention never came up past the Ram trigger for heals, Bump in the Night was really good, handing the Belle 3 focus in 2 activations. Additionally, Min damage 3, a wealth of good triggers, a more Versatile Lure with two Distraction dispenser triggers, and 12 wounds for 10 stones and hard to wound was just too difficult to bring down. The + flip against half health models was really useful as well. To be honest, Mourners were the least impressive models for me. I had taken them anticipating Taelor's Ruthless, and to take advantage of Scarlet Temptations with Feed on Grief, but I wish I'd taken Doxies instead. I'd have given up the free focus for Seamus from the corpses early, but other than that the Distracted-Spam and more HP (not to mention that Defensive trigger into Viks) would have served far better I think.

I was postulating earlier today that Tuco firing into an enemy model near Corrupted Hounds would want to blast into the dogs for yet more Black Blood damage into the original target, but I came across a scenario I wanted to be sure of: Enraged by Insolence: Until the End Phase, after a friendly Nephilim is killed within range, another friendly Nephilim witihin range may Push up to their Mv and take a y Action. If multiple friendly Nephilim models died simultaneously, say, to a blast of some kind, does each death simultaneously provoke a Push and Attack Action? Basically if 2 dogs died, does Nekima get two different pushes and attacks, assuming she's in range to resolve both of them? I'm a bit hazy on the resolution of simultaneous effects and wanted to make sure that this isn't an example of a model "being affected by the same aura more than once at the same time", since while it is at the exact same time, it is two different provoking events, namely, each dog's death.

Let's take a look at the two rules, and why they came to those conclusions. Laugh Off: If this model would be moved during an enemy model's Activation or from an enemy model's effect, it may choose not to. Unyielding: When this model would take an Action outside of its Activation, its owner may choose for it not to. So Laugh Off not working against an Obey comes from the idea that the enemy model is not making it move, it's making the model take a Walk action. Subtle, but important difference. The Walk action, in any scenario, is the model moving under its own power, and thus, Laugh Off does not apply. To counter, a Lure says to "move the model its Mv towards this model", which is not the Laugh Off model moving itself, but being moved by something else, hence, Laugh Off provokes, and the model doesn't move. Unyielding's key wording that makes it work against Obey, is that the owner of the model chooses whether or not the Action taken out side of its Activation occurs, not the Controller of the model. Hence, it works exactly as intended.

In my opinion, Kirai should be summoning Drowned at every opportunity. The Murder Ghosts ability on her summon upgrade gives them the Stun-and-Push trigger built in, and they're slow-moving to begin with but that can be mitigated if they're summoned into place. Goryo I think are fantastic with Grave Spirit's Touch, and thus should strive to be hired to their rare limit rather than summoned. Ikiryo's irreducible damage and onslaught triggers are awesome, and Vengeance I've found makes the toll for getting her off the table seem unworthy, considering she comes back without too much effort on Kirai's part. Also a decent Protected target, in a pinch. I will always take Lost Love in Kirai crews. The healing is great, the condition removal can be huge, and his By Your Side means that he's actually an effective scheme runner as well, porting around the map to drop schemes as appropriate. For 5 stones, it's a steal. A couple of Seishin I consider a must. Everyone needs to move, and a 2 stone model freeing up AP for other more important models to burn their AP doing whatever is big. The healing aura and expendable demise for card draw is just bonus. Hakuna Matata Jaakuna Ubume is just squishy and annoying enough (for the enemy) for me to not consider taking. Serene Countenance provokes focus-swing attacks which is also the weakness of Incorporeal, and without soulstones to mitigate the straight damage flip, death comes too quickly. Overall, Kirai has IMO one of the most powerful, well rounded kits in the game, without being unbeatable.

Really tells you more about when this trigger wouldn't be declared. "I knew she was dead, but you can't be too picky these days."

Being alive has a high positive correlation with victory, however. But being in melee does. Lures! Melee beater crews are archetypically defined by being in close proximity with other models to have real effect. No one in the Austin meta complains of the weakness of melee crews, I assure you. Seriously, I'm asking you to take on the somehow insurmountable task of having two Belles attack the same target. Surely you can finesse that somewhere into a game. EDIT: Tell you what, I'll try running a Redchapel game this Wednesday, I'll post the batrep and see what happens. I'm more than happy to admit I'm wrong.

I disagree. I think that Belles, particularly in combination with other Belles and Mourners, are impressive for a 5 stone paygrade. Once two Belles gang up on someone, a couple of 5 stone models can put out a lot of punishment by attacking into a negative flipped willpower with probably-6 AP because of Pounce. Mask triggers in a melee also can hand Seamus free AP with Hello Love. Unexpected Ferocity is just bonus. The biggest difference for me though is that Belles are waaay tankier than their counterparts. Beckoners have Df 5 instead of Df 4, but lose hard to wound AND 2 wounds! Don't Bite the Hand actually provokes focus-swing attacks, and plenty of models can deal 5 damage on a single blow with focus. As a dedicated servant of God-Empress Nekima, I can tell you that a Beckoner would be one half of an AP spent to Shove Aside into models with actual defense after removing the Beckoner with a moderate damage (brought to you by Blasphemous Ritual on Shamans). Belles on the other hand, frustratingly can't be charged, and can cheat even half-way decently to avoid getting straight-flipped from Focus because Hard to Wound is so useful. And even then, on a straight flip, Nekima can't drop them short of a Red Joker. Neither can the Plethora of 3/4/6 beater tracks in the game, either. They're actually not super unlikely to have to burn even 3 AP, which out of a 10 stone model, is a fine ask for a 5 stone minion, considering models only usually get 10 AP a game, assuming they even survive the whole time. The - aura to Wp duels synergizes not only offensively, but defensively, amping up the model's inability to attack the Plethora of Terrifying models (Ruthless being taken away by Mourners!) in the keyword. Doubling-up with Belles also means that the model in question is much less likely to escape on a disengaging strike, because the Belles will disengage against their neg-twisted Wp, with a positive to damage on the move reduction because Belle teamwork. Love your belles, man. I think they're lowkey strong. Not faction-alteringly broken like they used to be, but strong.