Breng77

It really depends on the rest of my list. I most often take Cabaret Coreography for summoning doves, arcane reservoir, and either shell game or practiced production(if I don't take Cassandra or Angelica). Though my most recent Colette list had seize the day in it rather than arcane reservoir.

I agree with that if I take her it is always with PP.

Less with the 2016 schemes, but in book schemes it was in almost all my lists. This was because typically you could rely on getting lits with it as well as things like plant evidence, breakthrough, plant evidence. I find the new pools to have far less market dropping schemes, so it shows up less for me these days.

Yeah shenlong box (so 4 models?). Ironsides box (4 models), a bunch of gremlins. Beyond that i only really know arcanists stuff. The fire starter and eternal flame. I'm sure there is some other ten thunders stuff.

Yeah not sure I agree, for the most part books 1 and 2 were for models from 1.5 and earlier so it is understandable to want those out quickly. I don't feel like the number of models in book 3 was too many. Perhaps you could have not put any new models into book 2 but I feel that they wanted to keep all the factions balanced for number of models.

Yeah I can see a Colette list that could cause it issues, but it is a very specific list and it would require the right cards to make it work. In reality though all it would likely do is force my opponent to not wait out all my activations but instead kill the stuff I send their way. So instead of waiting until the end of turn to cripple stuff I force them to do it earlier.

I never said that it wasn't but saying someone is forced to do anything is the hyperbole. Like most things you have a choice to play or not play the game based on the decisions the company makes. If the not having print on demand or arsenal packs is a make or break for a customer than it is, changing editions was for many. People have the ability to still play the older rules if they have enough people that wish to do so. If enough time people decide not to buy because of the relationship with Wyrd it will cost them,. I agree that it is an important relationship to nurture, but it is a line companies walk between maximizing profit, and doing everything customers want. There are plenty of things I would like to see differently (including having arsenal packs for all new models), but I understand why they aren't done that way. Many claim that having cards available is reasonably practical, maybe it is less so than we see if they want to maintain their profits.

Facts are good. Fact:no one is forcing you to play with the shifting loyalties models at all. You choose to do so. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use those models or even play the game at all. Now if you want to you will need to use proxies and printed cards. Fact:Wyrd is just now catching up on book 2 models so you have always been aware that the book 3 models would be a while. Maybe you would prefer they not release new stuff every year if they cannot keep up, but then you would be unable to use avatar models at all. Fact:It does cost Wyrd sales, I can easily proxy say 5 miniatures out of the Wyrd multiparty kits, which would cost less than buying other boxes to get those same minis. Fact: the conversion rules only apply to tournament play and so other players may not buy the models at all if they already have good cards and proxies. Even then TOs are often far more liberal about these things than Wyrd might be (they don't enforce gaining grounds, and the document even says for TOs to use it as they will.) your last assertion assumes that Wyrd will eventually allow print on demand for all cards. They may not or there may be a good deal of lag after model releases, so releasing those cards now may very well cost them sales. i will vouch for myself that the arsenal decks cost them some money from me as I hunted down many metal models to use and got them from second hand dealers instead of buying new. That is no new money for them. Now this isn't an issue for new models, but having the cards I feel would encourage more proxies than not. I have said all along you are welcome to not like their sales strategy but to believe they won't make more money by forcing at least some model sales is naive. i also assert that you play up the difficulty of making temporary cards, now they are low quality which you can not like, but they are not a huge difficulty.

Seeing as I have never taken part in said discussion before and did not post a new thread about it not really.

And for emissaries I somewhat agree with you, but unless they are print on demand I think it would be a box with a lot of waste for most people. But people are also saying well I proxied x and it is not cool that I cannot have a card for my proxy. I also never said that you shouldn't use the model only that you shouldn't if the available options bother you a ton. Are there things I would rather do than make cards sure, but you really overestimate the time involved in doing so, IMO you would be giving up an hour (being generous probably less) once and you would have all the cards you will ever need. As for it coming up to me it has been brought up and answered and people need to move on. Or email wyrd directly and not clutter up the boards with the same thing over and over.

Many people don't have the time and resources to own every model and as such cannot/don't use them, there is no difference other than someone owning/making a proxy and wanting a card. As for not having the know how or time to produce cards unless you never make models anymore you have the time (I'd say it is a fair generalization that most people have assembled and painted at least a single model in the last year). Especially those that have made proxies for new models (obviously avatars not included as you may have had them previously). For the know how I have trouble believing anyone that is capable of playing this game is incapable of operating a copier/scanner and a pair of scissors. Literally that is all I use: copy book page, cut out both sides of card stick in card sleeve with a card or card stock in between (if you don't want to print on cardstock). I use old Magic the gathering land cards. So I really have a hard time buying the time, and know how argument. I can buy I want nice cards because they look better, and to get them without official cards getting really nice cards is more difficult. Getting functional cards is not. I just feel like this thread comes up seemingly once a month, and it usually reads to me that people feel it is somehow wrong of a company to want you to need to buy their product to use it. as for why no emissary card pack it is probably to keep the product count down for retail locations.

No you are not but plenty of people won't buy it. I really think you guys are overestimating the time involved with making cards (unless you want every single model and card, at which point I would say to you that you have way more spare time than I do as you are able to assemble all those models and paint them, unless you pay someone to do that.). I have made maybe 20 cards since the game came out and have probably spent less than and hour total doing so. If you don't want to use photo copies then simply don't use those models. It is not that I wouldn't rather be able to buy cards, it is that I understand why I can't. To me it is not the desire to have cards that I find strange it is the outrage I find troublesome.

People make way more of the photo copies than they need to they take little effort to make (don't need to be double sided, where I am at least most people own a copier). I am totally for wyrd encouraging people to buy their models, we are not owed cards. Would I like cards sure, because then I save money by proxying things. But I do that now with copies from the book. To people claiming they need 58 cards you really don't it sounds like you need 8.(5 emissaries, 3 other models). Then you can just copy the pages for upgrades as you don't need more than one of each. it is easy enough to put copies into sleeves for marking as well.

It depends on your set up, you don't need to do everything turn 1. So you set up a forest to block LOS and push up behind it. Or play with enough terrain that block Los to move up behind. Or that you need to walk around for the lure. If you don't activate Lilith too early belles pulling her a bit forward is actually bad for the opponent.

Use mobility, grab belles, or waifs. Be out of LOS so late activations don't matter much. Bring models that can push Lilith to save you some AP. I've seen it done

Play Lilith? Tangled shadows to pull models out of position and finish them off, use terrain and forests to Block Los.

I think part of it is that Beckonera have a bunch of other rules and abilities. If you aren't using/don't want to use those abilities then the belle is a better deal. Also keep in mind beckoners can be taken in several crews which allow them to act outside their activation. Essentially it comes down to paying for more abilities than you may want.

I feel like the 2016 GG schemes have done a bit to balance summoning. With hunting party being a suited scheme, schemes require certain models at the start of the game, and more kill schemes in general. It is still powerful but has been a bit scaled back.

Exactly I have never outnumbered an opponent 2-1 unless I killed most of their models. Most of the time I only have 3-5 spiders in play at any time usually closer to 3. Average summoning 2 per turn and 1 dying. Sure it only costs 1 scrap, but it is more difficult for arcanists to generate scrap than for resets to generate corpses as it always requires killing a model. I'm certainly not saying he is bad, he is very good at the things he is good at. However, as a general use summoner I'd rank him as 3rd or 4th best in the game due to the lack of variety of what he summons.

It depends on what is shooting,attacking. Anything doing reliably 3 damage can take out 2 spiders in one activation without too much trouble (if 3 are summoned). Before they are able to heal. I'm not saying it is always smart or easy but as far as summoning goes I would argue they are on the weak end for summoners.

Have a few weaknesses? They do they have few wounds and come in wounded. They are weak against things that ignore armor. They are decent scheme runners, but there are plenty better. Are they annoying to kill sure they are, but that is about it.

Well they are 4 SS. That said it depends on the master, for Colette they can work the issue is that she is generally not in need of scheme runners. But in stake a claim I can see some use. i could also see them with Kaeris using grab and drop very effectively. I don't think they bring much to Mei or Ramos. And seem so so for raspy and Toni. Not bad for them, but no real synergy either.

You get the first choice of ability for free, then you can discard a tome for each additional ability. So if you discard two tomes you can get all 3 abilities.

The issue is range on the ability to pull those models, if they have short or no charge it does not really work well. If they have movement tricks it doesn't work well. Also Ramos exists in faction and recon/interference are super easy for him. It is not that she is especially bad at recon, but it doesn't really play to her strength as enemies are spread out, as is your crew.

Tough question, I don't think it is cheating, but I do think it is poor sportsmanship, there is a difference between being vague and misleading an opponent through bluffing. Letting an opponent think you have a scheme to me is different than essentially telling him you have it but lying. Your poker example is a bad one as you are being vague about your hidden cards, it would be equivalent to you putting down the scheme marker and your opponent asking about your scheme and you saying I might have it. There really isn't a good analog in poker to be honest because telling your opponent what is in your hand is of no advantage.