StuffedKiwi

We in my local group have always played the version LusciousMcCabe presents, which is indeed (on my reading) exactly what is written. It does seem an easy one to misunderstand, though.

In my head I've had something like the architecture/city planning from "City of Lost Children." This sort of thing: But I think the whole point of the vagueness is to allow us to encompass all sorts of things.

Is Widow Weaver not on the list because she's in the June release list? That still seems far enough away for her to be here.

Doppelganger can copy the condition-removal actions of some of your opponent's models, if your opponent has such models, they're in range, and you haven't killed them yet -- situational at best, though, obviously. For the most part, we're pretty limited in this department.

As someone who plays Neverborn crews that like to get up in my opponent's face very quickly (very little range option, lots of melee power), I would say that my opponents tend to find it an easy 3 points, based on how my crews are likely to behave. And I find it hard to deny. On the other hand, I often find that by Turn 4 or 5, those AP my opponent spent distracting me are AP they didn't spend killing my models or healing themselves, and so I tend to have the advantage by that point, and can sometimes use that to make sure I get my full 10 points and stop them getting some of their other 7. For me, on the other hand, I use it only as a 'surprise' option -- here we are, Nephilim claws at the ready, make your game to plan to stay alive, and ... 'surprise, Distract!' But usually, a Neverborn crew s filled with models who are good at killing things, and so Distract complicates my game plan. So like others have said, it is crew, strat, scheme, and deployment dependent. I will say, it's a fabulous scheme for tournament games that don't often go a full 5 turns, since you can score on it T1, unlike most schemes.

For Scenario 2, yes, you're right -- Model A gets to attempt a disengaging strike before Model B moves, at the moment when it is declared that Model B will be moving outside of the engagement range of Model A For Scenario 1, not quite. If Model B takes 1AP to move behind the obstacle, while remaining within the 3 inch range of Model A, then it has not left the engagement range of Model A, so no disengaging strike. If it then uses another AP to move out of engagement range, Model A does not get to make a disengaging strike, because Model A has no LoS to Model B to make such an attack. If Model B declared an intention to move outside of Model A's Engagement Range in 1AP from the starting position, though, even if the place it was moving to was behind the LoS-blocking terrain, then Model A WOULD get to make a disengaging strike before Model B moved. Hope that clarifies. There are indeed disadvantages to a longer melee range, among the most prominent being that if you're engaged you can't take interact actions -- even if the model you're engaged with is right at the edge of your engagement range, and has a much smaller engagement range. And given that the game is more often won or lost by interactions than by killings, that's definitely worth keeping in mind.

Neverborn have many useful lure-like options to trigger pounce. Lilith's Transfiixing Gaze (from the Wicked Mistress upgrade); Lilitu's and Kade's and the Beckoners' Lure abilities; Mature and Young Nephilim and Teddy and Barbaros and Nekima all have triggers and/or melee attacks that can push enemies into the range of Tots and their Pounce (and Kade and in the right conditions Lelu can also Pounce); the Cherub's ranged attack can push enemies a good long way, as can Tuco's Disilluson; Barbaros's Df trigger also pushes. Sadly, "place" effects do not trigger Pounce, since placement is not movement (p. 51, big rule book), so the Widow Weaver's Seize Prey or Lilith's Tangle Shadows will not give your Tots a Pounce attack. Given all of which, I'm kind of surprised I haven't used Pounce more; seems like it ought to come up pretty often, but somehow it doesn't work out that way for me. It seems to take a bit of setting up, unless you just get lucky. Or maybe it's because I'm mostly using Tots as scheme-runners, and so they're not in the path of any of these lure-or-push abilities, and/or I want to keep them AWAY from the enemy, rather than in range of Pounce. In any case, good luck, it's always fun when you get a Pounce to come off!

Other things that would be great: Markers for the new GG strats (e.g. 50mm Stash marker, 30mm informant marker, etc.) -- and also include them in the list of Strategy options. EITHER condition-counting options for Dreamer's Waking status and Yan Lo's Chi (and I presume there are plenty of other models who would appreciate something similar), OR some generalized, non-specific counter for such things -- we've been using 'Blight' as such, but (A) that will be annoying if we start to use Hamelin, and (B ) something non-specific would avoid that problem. And unless there was a way to limit the 'Dreamer-waking' counter to Dreamer models, the length of the list of options would get unwieldy, I realize. Seconding the usefulness of upgrade cards -- also good for Shenlong. Not sure if anyone is working on this currently, and no pressure if anyone is, just think it's useful to keep a list like this going....

Awesome, that's the thing I was looking for. Thanks for ... hmm, doing my work for me?

Thanks, CDHay. That's what seems sensible to me, too. On the other hand, there's this from the FAQ: Q: If a model moves (or is Pushed, Falls, is Placed, etc) 0” (zero inches), does it count as having moved? A: No. Same answer for Pushing, Falling, Placement, etc. Which seems to suggest that all of "Pushed, Falls, is Placed" are covered by the category "move," which in turn suggests that immunity to movement effects includes immunity to place effects. Any other thoughts or rulings to point to?

I can't imagine this hasn't been answered somewhere, but sadly my search abilities are not up to the challenge. Fuhatsu's Braced Ability states that "This model is immune to movement and push effects that are not caused by this model taking a walk action." So my question s whether Lilith's Tangle Shadows -- and "place" effects in general -- are movement effects? From the big rule book, page 42: "Any time a model is moving across the table it is called movement." Which sadly doesn't clarify for me whether a "place" is "moving across the table" or not, since all the other aspects of "moving across the table" (like moving around other objects) aren't relevant to a place, which in some ways seems obviously "movement" -- the model gets moved -- and in some ways obviously not a movement -- the model doesn't move so much as disappear and reappear. And just so it's all here, Lilith's Tangle Shadows: Select a friendly model within 6" of this model and place it into base contact with the target model. If the friendly model can be placed, then place the target model in base contact with this one. I did notice in one the 10T threads someone mentioned having their Fuhatsu Tangled by Lilith, but that doesn't seem definitive. Thanks in advance.

Though I can see why you wouldn't have wanted to bother arguing the point in the midst of an unpleasant gaming experience, I can't see why your opponent would think that Taelor could be engaged with Barbaros and not take damage from the Hazardous Terrain. Both the Aura and the Engagement Range are 3 inches, right? So if you're in Melee Range, you're in the Aura? This FAQ ruling ... Q: If two models are in base to base contact, and an Ability pushes one of them exactly 3” away, how much distance is considered to be in between the two models? Are they considered to be within 3” of each other? A: As base to base contact is considered to be exactly 0” apart, the models would be exactly 3” apart after the push and therefore still within 3” of each other. ... confirms that 'on the line' means 'in,' right? Anyway, thanks for the write up, I hope there is some retroactive satisfaction in both winning and being a good sport, even if the game itself wasn't fun at the time.

I don't want to beat a dead horse about this -- I guess I don't want to beat a dead horse about anything, but maybe that's just me -- and I accept that Wyrd has made this decision in the way that they think best suits the needs of the game, and I'll play it this way. BUT I also don't think that the examples on offer here really hold up as good 'reasons.' Aaron says: the alternative here is that you can take disengaging strikes against models you cannot see. And that's a whole different kettle of fish which is way more counter-intuitive. That's not the alternative being suggested here. Rather, what's being suggested is that you get to take a disengaging strike when a model tries to leave THAT PART OF YOUR ENGAGEMENT RANGE TO WHICH YOU HAVE LINE OF SIGHT, even if the place they are moving to, out of your Line of Sight, is still within your Engagement Range. All Disengaging Strikes happen at the moment of declaring movement, so while the moving model is still within Line of Sight. Aaron also says it makes sense to him that: a ghost walking through a wall probably does end a melee fight. And I agree that ghosts probably do waft in and out of fights as they wish. But the wall doesn't seem the important part of that example, so much as the ghost part. The rules say I get to take a swipe at the ghost (in an attempt to keep it in the fight with me) when it walks away, so long as it's intending to go somewhere I can no longer reach it. The rules now also have been ruled to say that I DON'T get to take a swipe at the ghost if, in walking away, it actually walks not-so-far-away that I couldn't reach it, if I could reach through walls, just on the other side of the wall, say, and not through the wall and far away. And that really does seem counter-intuitive to me: If the ghost is going through-the--wall-and-far-away, I get to take a swipe to keep it in the fight with me, but if it's going through-the-wall-and-just-to-the-other-side, I don't? The last example is: Ophelia has just spent a bunch of her time getting someone else into combat with you so they can distract you and then slowly faded out behind them. It seems reasonable that it would now be difficult to stop Ophelia from doing what she wants because, you know, Lenny. I agree, once Ophelia has faded out of Line of Sight behind Lenny, it does indeed seem fair that you are too busy with Lenny to stop Ophelia (who you can't see) drifting away. But the alternative being suggested in the thread above was that you would get to take a disengaging strike against Ophelia not when she, already out of Line of Sight, leaves your Engagement Range, but rather at the earlier moment when she tries to sneak behind Lenny and get out of Line of Sight. And that still seems sensible to me -- if I'm so keen to be in a fight with both of Ophelia and Lenny, why would it make sense that I DO get to take a Disengaging Strike against her when she moves to somewhere I can't hit her because she'll be far away from me, but DON'T get to do so when she moves somewhere I can't hit her but she's still close® to me? In any case, those are my last words and thoughts on the matter, since you know, ruling made, I'm happy with that, let's move on. But I really don't think the examples on offer work to explain why it's a good ruling.

I'm not thrilled about the 'moving out of Line of Sight but not Engagement range' ruling, but so be it. Doubtless I will find use for it, but will also doubtless feel vaguely dirty the first few times, or at least until someone uses it against me.

Not a fan of that ruling.

Dirial's advice is key: find a balance between 'mastering' the models you've got, and expanding your options with more models. There's not too much point in having two dozen models to chose among if you haven't yet worked out how they work in combination with each other, much less mastered the basic rule set. Everyone will find that balance somewhere different, but really whatever 'disadvantage' you have if you've only got a few models to chose among will rapidly be balanced out by your increasing familiarity with the cool things those models can do, And once you've mastered a few, the 'gaps' -- the things you can't do well or easily -- will become apparent in ways that will help guide what you might want to get next. It can be easy to fall into mentality of 'oh, I would have won this game if only I'd had [model x], which while it will doubtless sometimes be true can also be a hindrance to really coming to terms with the full potential of some models. (I know I have made this mistake several times!)

I agree there's an important distinction between Engagement and Engagement Range. But if we spell out the scenario with terrain intervening instead of a model intervening, I think the situation is easier to understand. (a) Imagine Zoraida is within 3 inches of Hannah, but with a height 5 Blocking wall between them, such that Hannah has no Line of Sight to Zoraida. I presume that none of us are going to say argue that Zoraida is engaged with Hannah, nor that Hannah would get to make a Disengaging Strike against Zoraida, were she to move away? I would say, equally, that the intervening wall means Zoraida is not within Hannah's Engagement Range, even though she is within 3 inches of Hannah. ( Imagine Zoraida is within 3 inches of Hannah, but with a height 5 Blocking wall partially between them, such that Hannah has does have Line of Sight to Zoraida. Now I think we all would agree they are engaged. Suppose that Zoraida moves in such that she is still within 3 inches of Hannah, but now fully behind the intervening wall, so that Hannah no longer has LoS. Opinion 1 would suggest that Hannah gets no Disengaging Strike, since Zoraida is still within her Engagement Range? But I would argue (Opinion 2) that since Engagement Range does not extend to places where a model cannot see, like through walls, Zoraida is indeed leaving Hannah's Engagement Range, and so Hannah gets to make a Disengaging Strike. © I know that in all sorts of ways models and terrain do not work in the same way, but I think in this way they do. Juju is like the intervening wall in that he blocks LoS, and in that Hannah's Engagement Range does not extend to the areas behind him that she cannot see. So In the original example, Zoraida walking behind Juju, to a place out of Hannah's LoS (though still within 3 inches of Hannah) IS a walk that ends out of Engagement Range, just like the walk to behind the wall would be in ( above, and so provokes a Disengaging Strike. My two cents. Edit: so apparently a 'b' before a parenthesis automatically turns into a sunglasses-smiley-face, on my editor, and a 'c' between parentheses turns into a copyright sign, Sorry about that. Further edit: just read that earlier thread in its entirety, which covered all these options, and seemed to end with a sense that RAW allows for some odd/funky/makes-no-sense things, in contravention of what most people thought was RAI. It would perhaps be nice to get some Wyrd-level clarification.

Just to confirm, reiterate, and say in different words what Myyra said: Lady Justice's Blindfighter Ability allows her to ignore the Line of Sight rules for selecting the target of a charge, but not any other part of the rules for charging, combat, or engagement. Nazull, you are right to say that LJ cannot charge in a non-straight line (i.e., 'around' the Stalkers). But you are (sadly for Guild players, thankfully for the rest of us) wrong to say that she can charge up to one side of a wall, on the other side of which is a model that she cannot see, and then make her two charge attacks against that model. She is not engaged with that model, and so cannot make any attacks. So, when Lady Justice has finished her charge move (which must still be in a straight line), she must also be in engagement range of the charged target (and thus cannot be on the other side of a wall with the Blocking characteristic, assuming it is high enough to block LoS between her and her target). She could, however, if the terrain and model placement allows, charge in a straight line PAST the edge of that wall, ending within two inches of a model that she could not see before charging -- that's what Blindfighter allows her to do that other models cannot. And she can also, then, assuming the target is not dead, use her third AP to attack the target as normal, since she now is properly engaged with that target. (Even incorporeal models can't charge through the wall, and flying models can't charge over the wall, if they don't have LoS to the model they're charging before they begin -- unless they have other rules that allow them to ignore that.) That's much wordier that Myyra's excellently concise answer, but I hope also helpful.

Mmm, I like the 'flay' idea. And the Black Blood idea. Also, it turned out, Lelu with double-plus flips from Lilitu's 'Whispers in the Blood' worked well. Then Yan Lo resummoned Yin, of course, and then Doppleganger focused, copied Lelu's attack, and took her down again (with the poison). So I think it turns out yes, there are many Nevrborn options, from the simple (focus) to the list-building (take Collodi/take Zoraida), to using specific models or upgrades. So thanks, forum-hive-mind, I now no longer feel quite so helpless.

Jumping back for a moment for the Condition-removal conversation, another trick I've pulled off (only once) was using a Doppleganger to mimic Chiaki's Memories Past attack action (remove a condition). I think at the time I mis-played it, since I then used the Doppleganger to remove a condition from herself, which I don't think I should have been able to do (that would require targeting herself with the attack action, though the Mimic action is a Tactical rather than an Attack, which is why I think I got it wrong at the time), but you can use Doppleganger to copy any model with a condition-removal (1) action, if you're then going to remove a condition from someone other than the Doppleganger. Not meaning to re-derail the Lilith thread, just wanted to throw this one out there too.

Thanks for the good suggestions. Like Dirial, I've found that many of the things that are good against Yin are also quite vulnerable to her -- so I guess it's a matter of timing and placement.

One of my regular opponents has run Yin (in a Yan Lo Rezzer crew) against me a couple of times recently, and I'm finding her tough to counter (one game I had a Dreamer-summoning crew, the other a Pandora-Reckoning crew). Both of Yin's Mass of Viscera ability (-ve flips to attack and damage against her) and her Gnawing Fear attack (gives -ve flip to your Ca and Wp duels) are very disruptive. Any suggestions for Neverborn things that work well against her?

My regular opponent regularly runs Kirai, and regularly beats me. As others have said, Kirai works with a variety of models, depending on what you're focusing on. The only ones not mentioned so far that I see regularly in his crews are Jaakuna Ubume and The Drowned; Night Terrors; occasionally Crooligans; lately he's gotten very keen on Philip and the Nanny. For summoning, he usually goes for Hanged and Shikome and Onryo -- and usually starts with a Flesh Construct to summon off, as others have said. Anyone playing against Kirai, I would strongly recommend finding a way to disrupt the summon/heal cycle that happens turns 1 and 2 -- throw something in Kirai's face that she needs to deal with, sniper-kill Lost Love to take away some of the healing potential, etc. -- and so likewise advice for playing Kirai is to avoid giving your opponent an easy way to disrupt that cycle. Good luck and enjoy.

Very nice trees. I've already got a few (smaller than that) single trees that I use on that board -- they're good for cover, but don't block LoS much (being, basically, too narrow). I wonder if anyone has ideas for similarly in-theme pieces that could both (a) stand in the 'swamp water' areas, sensibly/aesthetically, and ( block LoS a bit more than a narrow tree will? I'm thinking out loud, and have no idea how to make them, but something like a stand of mangroves (Ht 3), or a thicket of tall marsh grass (Ht 2)? I've also just got a kitset shipwreck in the mail from Renaissance Miniatures that I think might be a good option. I'll add some photos and feedback once it's put together, but anyone with any other ideas or suggestions, please chime in.

Thanks! Swamp foliage to block LoS is a good idea -- any ideas or suggestions on what it could/should look like? Tall swamp grass, maybe, maybe could use some bamboo-style pieces for that? Other thoughts?