karn987

Not that we know what henchmen do yet ;D Crazy monkey. Couldn't find a monkey, so heres a sheep! :sheep: @Raintar: Please maintain a level of civility on the forums alright man? Don't insult people just because your point is not coming across. Make your arguments as clear and concise as possible and don't ramble on with walls of text. This betters your posts and the forums for everyone, so please. I could see where you were going with what you were saying, but (as I think may other people had) you didn't really convince me of your point.

Raintar... I'm no longer really sure what your point is on this topic... If your still on about how over powered you think they are... they aren't really. They are 5 points, the same as the Slurid, another very scary model. Honestly I think you should just concede your point Raintar, it's no longer coming across very well and vacuum theory never works. I don't see anything of any real value coming out of this thread any more.

Keep Pace is how! Its like magic! But not >.>. You can group them up so all 4 (the number you need to make a Desolation Engine) are in base to base with 2 of their number. So you have model a b c d and a and b are the 2 in b2b with all of them. Model a goes first, moving 4" and you push all the rest so you line them up front of him. Then you do model c who takes model a with him and then model d who takes model b with him and puts b in b2b with all 4 again and infront. Model b then moves and you do Concentrated Deformation and place the Desolation engine at the very edge of the summon to 6" and now you have that beast to activate! Sure it has slow, but its suddenly about 18" up field. For added evil and for a 1 turn alpha strike, have rusty Alice do Burn Out on one of the Abominations. Don't use the Reactivate right away and follow the same pattern as above. Except! Now your Desolation Engine has Reactive *grins evilly*. Thoughhhhh afterwards it goes to 1 wd >.> but by then there may be nothing left of the enemy!

JuJu really is a strange model. I think if he was a bit tougher (some armor maybe instead of just hard to wound 1, i mean come on, he's a dirt golem =P he needs armor!) he would be worth his points. He is great though for stopping annoying ranged units like just about anything in the guild by popping up behind them. If you can get Initiative on the next turn, you have them. Just gobble them up. His whole eternal thing, while very very cool, is extremely expensive because he is honestly, way to easy to kill. You'll end up having him dead probably twice and then you have to decide is it worth another 2 ss to bring him back a 1/4 his total wds? It's a hard call. I can see popping him up in a safe spot and positioning him so that the next turn he can do his damage but that can leave him hanging out there with little support. For a guy you want to drop in the enemy back field, he really is just sorta a bit defenseless on his own. It will take some smart moves and a bit of luck to keep him alive through the next turn.

Very nice man! I love them and blast you for beating me to finishing them! =P

Eh Necropunks aren't bad, but you get what you pay for. They are only 3 ss a piece so you don't really get something with much power, the trigger helps and they have a respectable def and cb. They are insanely quick though and that's great for board control. Really anything works well with Levy as long as you have Rusty alice since he doesn't do to much for his army besides provide a trigger. Otherwise he is a walking cannon who you don't really need a mega beatstick minion to kill things. Levy can gun down just about anything in the game in 1 rnd and leave the enemy next to no chance at surviving it. All you have to do is bring them down to that sweat spot of 2 Wd and Levy can just insta kill them without any resistance. All that being said, I think you have a rather good spread of men but honestly I prefer to use his Steampunk Abominations for the kill scenarios because 4 of them can hop skip and jump a Desolation Engine into the enemy very very quickly (generally first turn if they are moving quick, 2nd if the enemy is slow or hanging back) either way its huge. That thing blitzing the enemy is just plain deadly, and if you use Levy last that turn, you can Death's Lessons to make sure you have a great card for init right on the top of your deck so you get to go first next rnd and continue the face eating. The Punk Zombies are nice and their built in crow + levy's trigger spell makes it so they always get either that or Rot off. But I still love the crazy blitzing speed of the Abominations + desolation summon to trick. also @ n0signal, what happened to your old avatar! Your wasting away in front of our eyes man! =P

Well it seemed to be missing from the conversation so ha! I added it.:tongue2: The whole lack of graverobber models in his list besides him seems very very much intentional, even before Bugking said it was. It makes sense, otherwise its really kinda cheesy to kill yourself for the corpse so easily to gain the 2nd waif right off the bat. It's not really that clunky at all, if he is alive, yay corpse tokens! If he isn't, booo no corpse tokens. (All that baring there isn't an enemy on the board with Graverobber). I love his complexity, it makes him feel even more special ;D. :leveticus:You_Rock_

In all honesty, I don't think you want to kill the man every turn. I see it as much more situational and to put it bluntly, why kill him when you can get the enemy to do it for you? Levies last spell, Unnatural Wasting is insanely dangerous and his dual focused pretty much assures you will have the needed suites for it. I've 2 shotted a great many things with taht spell or using that first then using Necrotic Unmaking or Entropic Transformation to finish the target off. PITA models like Masters generally get Entropic if I can drop them to 2 wounds left (I love the look on the persons face when they still have 4 SS left and there is nothing they can do to save their master). This guy is a walking cannon and model factory. His ability to create more SPA is very situational and honestly, I generally don't bother with it. I have used the Scavenger (all) action when I have nothing else to do to get a scrap counter but generally what you see is what you get with him. The triggers to make more SPA are cool, but they are hard to pull off because most people aren't going to let the Desolation Engine or a SPA near them if they can help it. Focusing on that, honestly, is a waste of his potential power. Its basically Iceing on his insane dirrect damage cake (even though he doesn't do actuall damage =D). I like the idea of Blessings of Desolation on Bete, I planned on trying this myself when I got the chance since I think she will work great with the old man. Also n0signal makes a huge point about the lack of counter drops when Levy is dead. Unless the enemy has the right types, this is going to throw a huge monkey into your wrench (or wrench into your monkey, whatever you prefer ;D). This is why I only kill him when its benifical to me that he dies (which is when my hand is so low that I have nothing good in it any more and I need a fresh hand now). Otherwise, a 2nd waif comes along rather quickly if you just gun something to death. Not like it takes much for him to drop a living model from full wounds to 0 ;D.

Big Z is more of a manipulation type master right now then the other 2 in the faction, Lilith eats your face from behind and Pandora spreads her web of woes and effects. Z lets you modify the field a bit (often where it counts) and can disable/turn the enemies best models back at them. She relies on her army a lot more then the other 2 masters and this is where she really differes. You have to build a solid army and her Enthrall lets you chose from a wide range of dudes to bring to the party. Her 0 spells let you rework the way things are going to play out for the turn and basically ensure you have an advantage when you want it. Obey is a great and horribly over-powered spell at the same time as everyone knows. Its fantastic! Hex is evil like Sketch showed, (stealing puppies heads for example). She takes some thinking and some serious list planning, just throwing anything together with her isn't going to turn out that great. She is subtle, and that can make her hard to wrap your head around. Keep playing her and trying her out, eventually it will click.

The problem I can see is that you having nothing big and solid to either a. attract attention or b. deliver a beat down to something like the Ice Golem. Sure the Silurid are great in a pack, but vulnerable to blast. They are going to need to gang up on something to do searious damage to it, and that can lead to major losses from blasts. I think it's a great list for the situations Raintar described, but I wouldn't play it in Assassinate or Slaughter.

It's more then fine as it is. If it was taken away in the FAQ I would probably return my Lilith box set ^^. Honestly it makes her an extremely unique melee master. Think about it? She is the only melee beat-stick type master that can do this kinda stuff. It's not over-powered because she is not over the top like Lady Justice and she can't chain a million attacks like McMourning. It's what she does. I've not had anyone at my LGS complain about her or this ability, in fact most think it's rather cool. It makes her a real stalker type of melee master, moving around the field and striking when you think your safest but are really at your most vulnerable.

Same here, I love the ideas here and I've been looking forward to more strategies/schemes. I think I'll give a few of these a try soon, I'll get back with some results.

Levy certainly has the steepest learning curve and has a certain order things have to be done in. But once you learn him, he is a beat-stick/cannon style guy. Not a lot of tricks but a whole lot of power. Viktorias never struck me as all that tacticle since her box set is basically a squad of elites. They are actually rather straightforward, you just need to deal with being out-numbered most of the time. But Pandora plays the most tacticle game by far if you choose to go with maximizing her style of play (wp duels). She has no serious heavy hitters and all her damage and effects are tricky and basically like spinning a web. I describe Pandora's play style often as spining a fine web to trap your enemy in and then quickly deliver the killing blows when needed and shutting down/disabling others.

Or when players get annoyed at you for being a sniping weasel and start throwing heavy objects at you ;D.

Happy to help ;D. Now go show everyone what our cute, cuddly teddy bear is all about ;D. On a side note, anyone know teddy's release date?

I love how you don't state the reason why, please do next time, it would be much more useful ^^. Right, Immune to Influence, so oh well on that one heh.

Personally, once his model is releases (Can't wait for it to be out finally) I'm going to put him into my Pandora list instead of Kade. The only function of Kade is melee power and Teddy does that much better. Sure he doesn't have Incite but that's a small loss for what this big cuddly bear can do. The reason I say with Pandora is Open the Box. "Models within 12" of this model lose any immunities to Wp duels" this includes Teddy's terrifying 13 moral duel. So not only do they get slammed for a point just by losing while within 12" of pandora, if teddy has his Smell Fear up and they are close enough, ohhh dead model! Teddy rampages in, eat's the model's face, they try to flee, he strikes to stop them (and probably hits) then you get to eat them the following round. His 0 spell Thing of Nightmares ensures he get's where he needs to be. Dead Of Night will let him survive most ranged attacks (since his def is effectively 7!). Dreaming Wings for flight for when you need wacky flying doom bear. And Out of Control for when you just want to eat faces. I can see Out of Control becoming the Pin Ball Doom Bear. Charge for 1 vs first target, use your teath and maul them. Then with your second ap, charge again! He fits with Pandora most because of his terrifying. Especially since she can debuff the enemy so much that they can't effectively strike back. The reason to use Zoraida with him is because of Obey. That + Teddy = gross amounts of damage. Lilith doesn't do much for him, but she is all about board control and ensureing her pack of monsters reaches the enemy quickly. She would get teddy there in short order and then be able to pull him out when needed (Transposition). Though over all, I would go with Pandora, especially if you are going to still use Kade in the list (Higher points then 25 ss basically).

Goltana, check the rules section on the post you just made. It's been replied to ;D.

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Yeah so would I. I haven't picked up the current decks because, while they are cool... I am a poor college student and I have plenty of card decks laying around. Those would be cool enough to pick up I think ;D

Yeah for Lilith to deal with Seamus you really have to just bum rush him and rip his head off as fast as you can. You don't want to be there for the return volley if you can help it. Her transportation spell (the one that switchs 2 model's location) can very quickly pull him away from his undead hookers and leave him next to you and your Nephlim ready to devour his little head.

RESULTS! I'z wantz dem!

Well I guess I'll start off then. Lilith is easily our most straightforward master and is coincidentally, the one furthest from the Neverborn norm. Lets start with a brief look at her stat line and abilities. Wk/Cg: Better then average but not the best in the game. It's still more then enough for our lovely red head. Ht: Well it's what we would expect from a human sized model. Wp: About average, nothing special about it. Just enough to make most Wp resist rolls. Ca: Low for a master and the lowest of the 3 Neverborn masters right now. But that being said, it's enough to work all her spells even if it is a bit low, you may need to soulstone her 2 resistible spells to make sure they can't be beat. Df: Really really high. Her Df kinda shocked me at first and as with most Neverborn models, this is her best defense. Plus she has a trigger on her Defense she already has the suit for, just soulstone up your score to make sure the enemy misses the first strike and you become a lot harder to hit. Wd: Pretty solid, not the highest but certainly not hte lowest. It's about right, just be careful of crazy combat beasts like Lady Justice and Samael Hopkins. Greatsword: Rg:As big as it gets really and 2" is a huge advantage over a lot of models. Half the masters don't have 2" Rg so all you do is walk up to 2" of them, beat on them and if they happen to survive they have to use an action to get in range. Cb: Above average and rightfully so for our only melee master. It also has half of the needed suits for her trigger which, like Rush of Magic, helps cycle her hand to the cards you want. Dg: Not an amazing damage line, but very solid. It's going to hurt no matter what type it is but she still doesn't hit like the guild with their critical strikes. Now lets take a look at her talents. Black Blood like every other Nephilim makes the enemy think twice about sending in wounded models that don't do much damage. Rush of Magic is great, it lets you stack your hand a little and drop annoying cards like Aces or the Black joker if he ends up in your hand. Master of Malifaux is quite possibly her best ability and is the reason I picked her up to begin with. You never want Lilith to come at someone straight on, you want to walk through walls and charge through forest at them. The more terrain on the board, the more useful this ability is. Weapon, Greatsword is pretty good just like lady Justice's. The positive flip on damage helps out a lot, making sure you can get your positive/negative flips to that all important minimum of no flips so you can cheat the damage. Wicked is just evil so to speak. Come through the wall, engage a few guys with her 2" reach, kill one of them. Now they have a choice, either stand and try to fight her or run. When they run, your ready to cut their pretty head's off and drink their blood. Now it's time for Actions. Fast is great no matter who it appears on and on Lilith it's even better. She is incredibly manueverable and the extra action just makes her even more dangerous. Brood Mother can be very handy at the right time. Companion a Mautre Nephlim and you have a battle buddy to take into the fray with you. Drain Blood like all the other Nephlim. Though it doesn't do anything for her at all (still bothers me she can't use the blood tokens for anything >.>) it does help her babies because their grow and mature spells state "Or 1 friendly Nephlim within 6". So you can just send Lilith through the walls, kill a guy or two, bring her back and then feed her babies. Blood from stone is really a raw deal but it can be handy if you really need that last blood token and there are is no easy pray left. Whirling death is very very powerful if the enemy clusters. Just be careful though, since she isn't quite the beatstick of some other masters (like Lady Justice) she may not kill them all and you may have just sent her into a bad situation. Pick and choose when to use this. I personally favor hit and run tactics to walking in and whirling on a group. I'm skipping over triggers because I went over them briefly on their relivant stats. So now we move onto spells. Alluring is an interesting spell, I say intersting because it looks good but I have yet to use it. The -2 df is great if your going after a model with a stupidly high defense. The can't charge this model is not so useful, since the aura is just 3". I'm sure there are uses for this, just not many I have found. Earthquake can be great for geting objectives or moving the enemy off theirs. It also helps to push ranged enemies out of LOS so they can't focus and attack during their next turn. Just be careful, it's ALL models in the pulse are pushed and their is a resist. Make sure you get the casting total up nice and high if your counting on this to work, spend a soulstone if you need. Illusionary Forest is my favorite spell from her list. I'm sure you have read other posts on the forum about making a donut with this spell... don't. Just use a 3"x3" square and don't try to pull something cheesy or your opponent will probably never want to play you again. This spell's main use is cutting off LOS by putting it between you and the enemy. The severe terrain can also be great for bogging down an area and letting your Nephlim move through it without any imparement. Transposition is a great grea great spell but a bit hard to pull off. You need 2 masks to make it work, so make sure you have on in your hand. You are also going to want to Soul stone the casting total because the enemy is not going to want this to go off if it targets them. If you target your own guys, remember you can't opt to auto fail the resist, you can cheat it so you still fail but don't leave the casting total to low if you don't have the cards to cheat lower. I almost always keed a Terror Tot near Lilith, so I often use this spell to try and bring the enemy master straight to me. Or using it to drop a Mature Nephlim in the midst of the enemies and start tearing faces off. Phew, so that was a bit long winded but thats a basic run through of her abilites, talents, spells, stats etc. Some basic tactics with Lilith: What I perceive as the key to making her and her army work is terrain abuse. She flat out ignores it and your bigger Nephlim can fly over it. NEVER come at the enemy straight on unless it benifits you best to do this. Hide and skulk through the shadows and spring your Nephlim on the enemy at the perfect time. Use Lilith's Illusionary Forest to help hide your troops as you move accross the field. Its pretty easy to see that she likes to have an army comprised mainly of Nephlim of varying ages. She can very quickly grow her Terror Tots up into bigger and bigger Nephlim but this takes time. It's good to go with a mix of the varying ages, maximizing your potential output. I always take a Mature Nephlim and when the model is released, I'll probably take 1 or two Young Nephlim and the rest of the points for Terror Tots and her Totem. Her forces composition is really a matter of your own tastes. Though Don't make the mistake of only taking Terror Tots, this doesn't work as well as you think. They don't have the damage output of the other ages and they can't take much of a hit. Mix the ages and don't get greedy, the enemy usually has only 5 to 6 models in a 25 ss game any way. Lilith should move up the field by using terraint to it's fullest. Stay inside buildies, forests, behind walls etc. Anything that can block LOS to her is where she wants to be because you don't care about the terrain at all. Remember, you can always see through it so don't forget to charge through walls and forests, surprising the enemy and taking someone down quickly. You can get Transposition off by casting it through walls and switching the enemy with one of your Nephlim and then finishing off the model you just brought to you. Use Illusionary Forest to cut of LOS to your Nephlim as they move with her. They may be almost as fast but they can't go through terrain like she can. The older Nephlim can fly, so make sure you use this. Fly up onto buildings or straight over them, abuse the terrain the best way you can think of. She is sort of a whirling storm that comes sweaping into the enemy line, strikes in the key weak points, and then leaves just as quickly. Don't stand and slug it out if you can't win. If your have someone keeping you in their melee range and you want to run, use Earthquake to push them away or Transposition to switch them with one of your models. She is the most straightforward of the Neverborn Masters but she still has a fair amount of tricks. Just always remember to abuse the terrain, that is the key to playing Lilith.

I cant get the file from file front, says it's not there :disappoin

Actually, for Neverborn I think you would be best showing either Pandora or the hag. Lilith is the beat-stick of the faction and has the least amount of tricks. She is actually the most straightforward. It's hard to pick just 1 caster/start set that shows the faction well because (at least in my opinion) each box set shows a different element of the faction and it's abilities. So really, I think you could be fine with any choice. Just be ready to talk about all the other starting boxes and what they do. (edit) Thanks Sketch ;D