Using the starter box to create a Guild McMourning list...

[Vorschlag]

9 hours ago, ringsnake said:

it looks like he'd be best off going Resser all the way, and doing that with Flesh Constructs.

He plays differently in Guild, the poison bomb is certainly an effective strategy for Ressers but when playing guild his focus becomes more around handing out precise to heavy hitters who then tear the face anything the come across, he also has the option of turning things undead with exorcists and then melting them with his upgrades and a combination of exorcists and judges.

Much like most cross faction masters you simply have to adjust to where the strengths in the faction but perhaps more so than other cross-faction masters you have to change the way you use the master themselves.

[MetaphoricDragn]

On 9/7/2016 at 5:17 PM, Vorschlag said:

He plays differently in Guild, the poison bomb is certainly an effective strategy for Ressers but when playing guild his focus becomes more around handing out precise to heavy hitters who then tear the face anything the come across, he also has the option of turning things undead with exorcists and then melting them with his upgrades and a combination of exorcists and judges.

Much like most cross faction masters you simply have to adjust to where the strengths in the faction but perhaps more so than other cross-faction masters you have to change the way you use the master themselves.

On that point then, do you suggest ditching Sebastian and the Chihuahua? 

[RodneyAnon]

3 hours ago, MetaphoricDragn said:

On that point then, do you suggest ditching Sebastian and the Chihuahua? 

Perhaps ditching Sebastian and bringing in a Guild Lawyer. They can hand out poison as well.

[admiralvorkraft]

I don't run Seb or the Chihuahua since they support McMourning, while I would rather have the good Doctor supporting his crew or zooming off to assassinate something/spam markers.

[Vorschlag]

5 hours ago, MetaphoricDragn said:

On that point then, do you suggest ditching Sebastian and the Chihuahua? 

That depends on the strategy, schemes, opponent and terrain.
If you're taking a nurse then Sebastian can still become an amazing whirling ball of death which is wonderful when your opponent wants to bunch up.
So I suppose he becomes a far more "situational" piece in Guild. 

[Myyrä]

14 hours ago, RodneyAnon said:

Perhaps ditching Sebastian and bringing in a Guild Lawyer. They can hand out poison as well.

If you ditch Sebastian, you are going to want to ignore poison completely.

[admiralvorkraft]

11 hours ago, Myyrä said:

If you ditch Sebastian, you are going to want to ignore poison completely.

Probably, Lawyers are still great though.

[OracleToronto]

I got a game in with the list I mentioned earlier and had a blast. Tons of movement tricks up my sleeve between nurses, Scalpel slinging, free walks with Grimwell and even twice hitting my own model with Nurse Heartsbane to grant myself two bursts of 3" movement on them. I also found the list had just enough healing to be a pain for my opponent. 

The game was against Arcanists (Kaeris) and my teams was killed down to just McMourning and a Nurse left - but I managed to win by 1 VP by boosting my Damage on McMourning by +2 from the nurse _ activating him using Accompliss then a combo of scalpel sling and 3 attacks against Kaeris to get the assassination! (min damage of 4 that ignore armour is brutal! With 3 attacks)

[Myyrä]

7 hours ago, OracleToronto said:

The game was against Arcanists (Kaeris) and my teams was killed down to just McMourning and a Nurse left - but I managed to win by 1 VP by boosting my Damage on McMourning by +2 from the nurse _ activating him using Accompliss then a combo of scalpel sling and 3 attacks against Kaeris to get the assassination! (min damage of 4 that ignore armour is brutal! With 3 attacks)

You won by cheating then. You can't use scalpel sling while McMourning has the damage buff from a Nurse.

[Surrealistik]

5 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

You won by cheating then. You can't use scalpel sling while McMourning has the damage buff from a Nurse.

Savage.

[Surrealistik]

Speaking of savage, try this out:

http://bythetree.net/?f=1&s=50&l=131|136,139,140&t=127|1|18|&m=78|0|*172|0|118,125*82|0|*82|0|*86|0|*187|0|41,27

Note that this list also has a Zombie Chihuahua for enhancing McMourning's mobility with bargain basement poison; unfortunately By The Tree's URLs do not seem to properly capture it.

Tried out some McMourning recently and this list was brutally effective.

Chihuahua to fuel McMourning's poison actuated movement bonuses via its aura and double attack.

Hermanos on San Fran you can customize to be Lead Lined or Numb to the World as needed. Hermanos does help Sidir keep up however, and pulls traps around/friendly minions out of melee which don't want to be there as needed.

Sidir or McMourning gain the benefits of El Mayor from Fran. Sidir cockblocks forced movement, or attacks in general when El Mayor is up then retaliates with his defensive trigger. The three benefit from + to melee and WP duels via Promises.

McMourning substantially boosts the mobility of your melee hitters with Unknowable Pain, and lets Sidir and San Fran (or Austringers etc) ignore armour/hard to wound by handing out precise as needed. Oh yeah, he also teleports to Clockwork Traps the Pathfinder drops with 'This One's Ready' and has said traps place scheme markers for 0 via Injection. You can drop 2 SS if you like to get another strategically placed Clockwork Trap as a teleportation beacon for him.

Austringers do long ranged fire support and movement bolstering/scheme placement as usual. They can move about the Pathfinder's Clockwork Traps and have them place scheme markers.

Pathfinder aims to drop a Clockwork Trap each turn for Herr Doktor to teleport to/Austringers to fuck with and generally be a nuisance while completing objectives.

Brutal Effigy follows around Herr Doktor like any faithful lab assistant and grants him sweet bonuses for live vivisections.

[OracleToronto]

13 hours ago, Myyrä said:

You won by cheating then. You can't use scalpel sling while McMourning has the damage buff from a Nurse.

oh that was honestly a mistake on my part then - i assumed that as scalpel slinging says to make the combat attack at the range indicated it was still a combat action. Thanks for the clarification I will not make that mistake again. 

 

 

[Myyrä]

1 hour ago, OracleToronto said:

oh that was honestly a mistake on my part then - i assumed that as scalpel slinging says to make the combat attack at the range indicated it was still a combat action. Thanks for the clarification I will not make that mistake again.

I didn't think you did on purpose, for what it's worth.

[OracleToronto]

I am curious if Ryle would be a good fit in this list - maybe by removing the Chihuahua and Sebastian...?  

[Franchute]

47 minutes ago, OracleToronto said:

I am curious if Ryle would be a good fit in this list - maybe by removing the Chihuahua and Sebastian...?  

This means a non-poison list, but Ryle is an excellent model for a McM crew. I've had myself good games with him. His push and his melee attack are very good. He is on the Pareto frontier according to @Myyrä, something between a peacekeeper and an executioner.

Edit: this is the thread I had in mind:

I said Executioner. It seems that the comparison was with Langston in a Hoffman crew. Some people comment on his inclusion in crews  other than Hoffman, such as McM for instance.

[Gnomezilla]

1 hour ago, OracleToronto said:

I am curious if Ryle would be a good fit in this list - maybe by removing the Chihuahua and Sebastian...?  

*points up thread*

That model which got Unknowable Pain pushed into melee after someone tried to damage it at range? Ryle. Please, do continue to fire. I have other 0 actions worth using once you've been beaten to a pulp.

[Surrealistik]

2 hours ago, Franchute said:

This means a non-poison list, but Ryle is an excellent model for a McM crew. I've had myself good games with him. His push and his melee attack are very good. He is on the Pareto frontier according to @Myyrä, something between a peacekeeper and an executioner.

Edit: this is the thread I had in mind:

I said Executioner. It seems that the comparison was with Langston in a Hoffman crew. Some people comment on his inclusion in crews  other than Hoffman, such as McM for instance.

My counter point to the so called 'Pareto efficiency' was that both Peacekeeper and Langston are significantly killier besides their unique advantages (more durability/mobility).

I can't recommend Promises via Queeg or Sidir Archibald enough; seriously, + to melee and WP flips for this model, Fran and McMourning? Insanely strong. Sidir is especially nice with all the mobility boosting per Unknowable Pain, Hermanos Fran, and, in a pinch, Austringers/Injection.

Slapping Promises on Queeg and giving Sidir Numb to the World with that line up is also great; Sidir now not only negates forced movement with By Your Side, but also conditions as well, while helping to defend a relatively fragile and high priority Queeg.

[Myyrä]

12 hours ago, Surrealistik said:

My counter point to the so called 'Pareto efficiency' was that both Peacekeeper and Langston are significantly killier besides their unique advantages (more durability/mobility).

That point just proves you don't know what Pareto efficiency means.

[Surrealistik]

7 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

That point just proves you don't know what Pareto efficiency means.

If you're up for derailing a thread to take a pointless stab at me, sure, I'm game; let's do this.

Pareto efficiency normally describes an equilibrium/optimal state where one individual's state can't be improved without incurring the expense/detriment of another.

Pareto efficiency in this case describes the state of Ryle being at an equilibrium between Langston's mobility and Peacekeeper's durability; presumably one area can't be improved at the expense of the other (Peacekeeper loses out on mobility in exchange for being more durable than Ryle, Langston loses out on durability in exchange for being more mobile than Ryle). The dimension your Pareto efficiency seemed to ignore is that both of them are hands down substantially killier models than Ryle; in otherwords he didn't really constitute any kind of real mid point/equilibrium of strengths or Pareto efficiency between the two.

[Myyrä]

Just now, Surrealistik said:

If you're up for derailing a thread to take a pointless stab at me, sure I'm game; let's do this.

Pareto efficiency normally describes an equilibrium/optimal state where one individual's state can't be improved at the expense of another.

Pareto efficiency in this case describes the state of Ryle being at an equilibrium between Langston's mobility and Peacekeeper's durability; presumably one area can't be improved at the expense of the other (Peacekeeper loses out on mobility in exchange for being more durable than Ryle, Langston loses out on durability in exchange for being more mobile than Ryle). The dimension your Pareto efficiency seemed to ignore is that both of them are hands down substantially killier models than Ryle; in otherwords he didn't really constitute any kind of real mid point or Pareto efficiency between the two.

There is no reason to limit the number of parameters to two. You could just as well include damage output and SS cost as well. It doesn't change the fact that Ryle remains Pareto efficient, because neither Peacekeeper nor Howard (nor any other available model) dominate him on both durability and mobility. All the stuff about mid points was invented by you. I never said he was at any kind of mid point.

[Surrealistik]

6 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

There is no reason to limit the number of parameters to two. You could just as well include damage output and SS cost as well. It doesn't change the fact that Ryle remains Pareto efficient, because neither Peacekeeper nor Howard (nor any other available model) dominate him on both durability and mobility. All the stuff about mid points was invented by you. I never said he was at any kind of mid point.

If you want to make the argument that the slight decrement in SS cost somehow compensates for Ryle's overall inferiority vs those two which was really what I was getting at (his net inferiority that is, as opposed to him being some kind of balancing act/averaging of their strengths and weaknesses  and standing at par which is what you seemed to imply) by all means, but I don't think it's a particularly strong argument. Perhaps he's 'Pareto efficient' with respect solely to those two parameters, but that's not a particularly useful observation.

[Myyrä]

5 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

If you want to make the argument that the slight decrement in SS cost somehow compensates for Ryle's overall inferiority vs those two which was really what I was getting at (as opposed to him being some kind of balancing act/averaging of their strengths and weaknesses which is what you seemed to imply) by all means, but I don't think it's a particularly strong argument. Perhaps he's 'Pareto efficient' with respect solely to those two parameters, but that's not a particularly useful observation.

I never claimed usefulness or implied anything. I objected to your use of words "the so called 'Pareto efficiency'". I am and will remain correct about Ryle being a Pareto efficient choice, no matter how many strawmen you attack.

[Surrealistik]

16 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

I never claimed usefulness. I objected to your use of words "the so called 'Pareto efficiency'". I am and will remain correct about Ryle being a Pareto efficient choice, no matter how many strawmen you attack.

But he's not Pareto efficient outside of those two parameters when we're considering Peacekeeper and Howard Langston as bases of comparison, which is my point. Overall both of these models, even with the SS premium factored are still in balance better than Ryle, regardless of the fact that he reaches a compromise/midpoint between them on two traits; that would not be a Pareto efficient choice so much as a generally inferior one (barring some situational corner case where his specific combination of traits would be somehow preferable to either as Hoffman; context!; which I've yet to imagine). A true Pareto efficient choice with these models defining the extremes/boundaries/metrics would feature at least a rough compromise/averaging between their strengths and weaknesses with respect to every important quality/parameter (cost, damage output, utility, etc in addition to durability and mobility).

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, Surrealistik said:

But he's not Pareto efficient outside of those two parameters when we're considering Peacekeeper and Howard Langston as bases of comparison, which is my point. Overall both of these models, even with the SS premium factored are still in balance better than Ryle, regardless of the fact that he reaches a compromise/midpoint between them on two traits; that would not be a Pareto efficient choice so much as a generally inferior one (barring some situational corner case where his specific combination of traits would be somehow preferable to either as Hoffman which I've yet to imagine). A true Pareto efficient model with these models defining the extremes/boundaries/metrics would feature at least a rough compromise/averaging between their strengths and weaknesses with respect to every important quality/parameter (cost, damage output, utility, etc in addition to durability and mobility).

This is why I said you don't know what Pareto efficiency means. Should I try to explain it to you or...?

[Surrealistik]

1 minute ago, Myyrä said:

This is why I said you don't know what Pareto efficiency means. Should I try to explain it to you or...?

By all means: show me exactly how Ryle is a Pareto efficient choice vis a vis HL and PK outside of those two metrics.