M2e Colette

[spooky_squirrel]

Last time I ran two Performers and Mannequins was when I first had Colette's box assembled and I wanted to see what her crew could do. If I were to restrict my crew selection down again, I could see running a pair of Performers with a pair of Mannequins in an interact-heavy scheme pool that's under a Strategy like Collect the Bounty--mainly because they would be limiting Bounty Points while scheming, and if they die, that Precious ability will allow me to get more work done. The downside is that the Show on Ice thing I described on page 13 of this thread is much more killy and is mostly Minions, meaning it works better into Collect the Bounty than a more passive control crew would.

That being said, with Kudra and the Scorpius, A Sip of Wine becomes more interesting. Carlos and Cassandra would both benefit strongly from Precious (so would the Coryphee Duet, but that's getting far too top heavy for Collect the Bounty). Colette using Death Defying to a Performer to gain Reactivate and heal is cold-blooded, but it lets Colette get a lot more work done while living to see another day.

[Squirrelich]

Looks like I'll start with all the doves but only 1 of the mannequins and performers and only add more if I see a need. I have all of the M&SU and Foundry and some other random pieces so it sounds like that should be enough to start with. Thanks for all the responses, I really appreciate it.

[Mxbedlam]

Yeah IMO one performer is an auto take, one mannequin is a niche take to help you toss out some scheme markers will guarding a point like a stash marker. I will say that with a mannequin a performer can easily get you claim jump every turn, which is a thing. Also mannequins can be surprisingly aggressive and hard to remove if you need to jam something up. Armor +3 makes them more obnoxious than anything and people often undervalue their threat 

[iamfanboy]

Performers also make good mercenaries apparently, though I'm not sure who needs them - Guild McMourning? Lure and Poison is right up his alley of needs. Brewmaster could be fun. What do Outcasts have with a lure effect? For my Widow Weaver HH list I used one, but that's more a function of my limited model supply than anything else - no Beckoner. You might save one of them to be painted up in more of a 'mercenary' scheme.

[Flint]

I am using 2 performers + one mannequin. That helps me set up markers perimeter on 1st turn - activate mannequin, activate Magician's Assistant, activate 1st performer move + grab mannequin with Mechanical adorations, throw markers(s), activate 2nd performer, move, push mannequin into base contact again, throw marker(s). Also Angelica can use Give Them an Encore to position mannequin in position to assist another model with placing markers. When base contacting mannequin I am (if enemy models nearby) placing him to cover fragile showgirls.

[Nikodemus]

3 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

Performers also make good mercenaries apparently, though I'm not sure who needs them

Performers combine Don't Mind Me, scheme marker removal and lure effects into one reasonably priced model. Great to have in certain strategy & scheme pools.

[FunkyCape]

Came here again for some advices, thanks everyone who answered me previous time! I already participated in two 35ss tournaments with some success (won one of them but a lot of luck was involved) and have some thoughts and questions.

First of all, I found myself liking to pick only 1 Coryphee in my crew but I am not sure if this is a good idea. Two Coryphees are expensive, sort of fragile and I found myself using duet very rarely. Only 1 Coryphee is a good beater and make some Showgirl synergy. Is it only my thing or picking only 1 Coryphee is a solid option?

I also realised that I almost never want to pick manequin, it is peon and 4ss with not impressuve stats and attack. The aura is useful but I usully don't have problemes with scheme running anyway. And the worst thing it is peon and most of strategies/schemes requires non-peon models. I found this especially frustrating because other crews has 3-4ss models that are minions and can do strats/schemes.

I also have a feeling that including performer+angelica or double performer to the team is very weak. It's a support-heavy models and when I had more that one perormer/angelica my crew was wiped out  in a couple of turns. Again, maybe I do sime mistakes here.

For aggressive format on 35ss (for instance, collect the bounty strat) I picked colette+cass+emissary+double coryphee or coryphee+gunsmith but I felt very uncomfortable with only 5 activations and limited upgrades. Is Emissary even suitable for 35ss format? And is it okay to play with only 5 models (everyone I played against had 6+ models).

The crew I enjoyed the most is: Colette (P. Prod, Shell Game for prompt trigger and Nothing up my sleeve for extra generation)+Cass+1 Coryphee + Gunsmith + Performer + Ice Dancer. Some killing power with cass-coryphee-gunsmith and nice scheme running at the same time.

So I would be glad to hear some commentaries about my thoughts because my expirence is very limited and my line of thought mught be wrong somewhere.

[admiralvorkraft]

I would say a big part of the trouble you're having with certain miniatures is that you're playing at 35ss. The game is balanced and tested around 50ss and models are costed accordingly. This is especially evident with support pieces like the Mannequins - they are infinitely more worthwhile with a bunch of showgirls around to push to, and other models to benefit from their aura. Their attacks aren't bad, especially for a 4ss model, I believe they swing at Ml5 vs Wp with a decent damage track and built in Slow?

The Coryphee Duet also absolutely has a home in your 50ss crew, the Duet is much harder to kill than two individual Coryphee, it's highly mobile, and it does a ton of damage, but I can see it being too much of an investment at 35ss.

[FunkyCape]

I do realize that the game is about 50ss but our local community is young and most of ppl own models only for 35ss format, so I have to adapt =(
I hope we will have 50ss tournaments soon

[Boomstick]

Agreed about the 50ss, but we all have to start somewhere.

Personally, at 35ss I would leave the coryphee at home. Not only is one too fragile, it also misses out on the best tricks Colette can pull with two of them. In the 7ss slot I would bring either a gunsmith, since you mentioned having them, or a December Acolyte. Both make pretty good prompt targets and are versatile models. Some would say the gunsmith will do better at the lower Soulstone game than they will at 50ss, but I say it's all matter of crew composition in relation to the strat, schemes, and table.

One reason I'd recommend the acolyte over the gunsmith is if you find yourself bringing a Silent One as well, which is great with Cassandra for her Understudy trigger to get more damage out there. The Silent One also can take advantage of a lot of Frozen Heart synergies between her, the Acolyte, and your Ice Dancer.

Here's my idea of a 35ss Colette list with a fair bit of versatility (though in general I prefer building to the objective pool than having a set list, like I said, we all start somewhere) :

35 SS Arcanists Crew
Colette Du Bois + 3 Pool
 - Cabaret Choreography (2)
 - Shell Game (1)
Mechanical Dove (2)
Cassandra (8)
 - Practiced Production (1)
 - Recharge Soulstone (1)
December Acolyte (7)
Silent One (6)
Ice Dancer (6)

 Wow, been a while since I made a 35ss list, thought I'd fit one more model in there.

So basically you have a lot of Frozen Heart synergy, with the Acolyte and the Ice Dancer doubling as forward firing nodes for the Silent One.

I personally haven't gotten what I want out of shell game in the past and prefer Arcane Reservoir for the guarenteed card every turn, especially as I've gotten more away from Prompting with almost every AP, but I think it will work well in this sized game. 

You don't *have* to hire a dove, but I've found having one in your opening list can help if you have a truly bad hand. Just pop it to give Colette + flips on Ca actions and she can get you a few more for more activations and future + flips while it's turn one and everyone is just focused on moving up the board. 

One thing I'll say about putting practiced production on Cassandra is make sure towards the end over every turn you're thinking about where you want to drop the extra marker the following turn, since you'll generally want Cassandra going first to put up Southern Hospitality.

[Boomstick]

On the other hand, if you want to get away from the Colette On Ice show or want something truly top heavy, something like this could be fun:

35 SS Arcanists Crew
Colette Du Bois + 3 Pool
 - Cabaret Choreography (2)
 - Arcane Reservoir (2)
Mechanical Dove (2)
Carlos Vasquez (9)
 - Stunt Double (0)
 - Practiced Production (1)
Cassandra (8)
Union Miner (5)
Performer (5)

 Carlos and Cassandra each holding a stash marker or the center in general is pretty tough to deal with, especially with the Union Miner there to pop out scheme markers with false claim to make All Together Now deliciously easy to do while also pumping Carlos up with extra burning for some Flaming Fists of the Great Carlos Vasquez (it's just so fun to say!). Plus, when the Performer dies, so long as she's nearby one of your bigger models, they get to reactivate. And with three of them, it's much easier to keep our her close to somebody.

In short: Carlos is awesome.

[spooky_squirrel]

I think Carlos is going to see more table time from me. Cassandra's good at what she does, but I feel like that Southern Hospitality forces you to activate her early to make it harder to stop her from getting work done, and I'm steadily becoming less and less a fan of having my order of activations dictated to me (which is why I'm not a huge fan of Ramos' Spider Factory).

At 10 Stones, Carlos with Stunt Double and Practiced Production comes in at the same stone cost as Cassandra with Recharge Soulstone and Practiced Production, with the added bonus that his defensive tech doesn't care about activation sequence (get armor +1 from burning on initiative flip). The Union Miner can, in a pinch, turn that up to Armor +2 if needed, or Carlos can do it himself as a (0). Just don't do this into Sonnia. Or an Arcanist player running Rail Workers. Of course, I'm not necessarily reaching for Colette into those match ups.

[FunkyCape]

Thanks everyone, but more questions are coming (sry)
So I started playing at 50ss and the build I was playing:
-Colette (Cabaret, Shell Game, Nothing up my sleeve)
-Cass (P. Prod, Smoke and Mirrors)
-2x Coryphee
-Ice Dancer
-Angelica 
-Emissary or Mech Rider (with mech rider - Performer instead of Angelica and no Smoke and Mirrors on Cass)

So, I really not sure about Angelica, is it worthwile to ever pick her in competetive play? The ability to push friendly model is good but I really doubt about attack actions. The paralyze trigger requires mask and I usually keep any masks for dove summon or Colette/Cass df triggers. So I basically never Paralyze anyone with her. Maybe it is better to pick performer or some damaging model like Silent One?

About 2 Coryphees - is there a schemes/strats where I shouldn't pick them and go for some other models? And I really can't get how to play them into a duet correctly. Usually I'm too greedy with two activations from them and I end up with 1 Coryphee killed on the end of t2- beginning of t3, so I lose tons of value. Is it okay to go for duet from prompt on t2 already after both Coryphee activated?

Not sure about the big guy slot (Emissary/Mech Rider). Emissary sometimes feels too squishy, I really like Mech Rider but It's too lategame heavy. Do you even pick Emissary for Colette? I sometimes feel he is too squishy for his cost 10 (only 1 armor and that's all for defense, his heal is very lategame, good df and wp though). I don't have access to Carlos but I can pick Langston, maybe should try him or even 2 cheap models instead?

And if you pick some frozen heart models like acolyte or silent one, what do you replace in my generic list?
In general with this list I feel that it's too easy to wipe all of my crew by t4 if I am playing against aggressive crews
Thanks!

[Mxbedlam]

I play Angelica more outside of Colette than in a showgirls crew. Her push is so good for other crews that have less mobility. 

My Colette Frozen Heart list is normally:

Colette (Nothing Up My Sleeve, Coreography, Seize)

Cassandra (PP)

Envy (energies)

2 Silent Ones

1 Acolyte

Ice Gamin

Is my standard crew for frozen heart Colette. 

[spooky_squirrel]

9 hours ago, FunkyCape said:

So, I really not sure about Angelica, is it worthwile to ever pick her in competetive play? The ability to push friendly model is good but I really doubt about attack actions. The paralyze trigger requires mask and I usually keep any masks for dove summon or Colette/Cass df triggers. So I basically never Paralyze anyone with her. Maybe it is better to pick performer or some damaging model like Silent One?

About 2 Coryphees - is there a schemes/strats where I shouldn't pick them and go for some other models? And I really can't get how to play them into a duet correctly. Usually I'm too greedy with two activations from them and I end up with 1 Coryphee killed on the end of t2- beginning of t3, so I lose tons of value. Is it okay to go for duet from prompt on t2 already after both Coryphee activated?

Not sure about the big guy slot (Emissary/Mech Rider). Emissary sometimes feels too squishy, I really like Mech Rider but It's too lategame heavy. Do you even pick Emissary for Colette? I sometimes feel he is too squishy for his cost 10 (only 1 armor and that's all for defense, his heal is very lategame, good df and wp though). I don't have access to Carlos but I can pick Langston, maybe should try him or even 2 cheap models instead?

And if you pick some frozen heart models like acolyte or silent one, what do you replace in my generic list?
In general with this list I feel that it's too easy to wipe all of my crew by t4 if I am playing against aggressive crews
Thanks!

Angelica is useful for positioning and being a relatively cheap Practiced Production caddy. As such, similar to @Mrbedlam, I get more mileage out of her in other crews. If you're using things that are as fast as Coryphee and Ice Dancers, it's already extremely easy to over-extend. So for a crew as mobile as the one you've got listed there, she's not filling in any missing roles in your force and using her strengths might actually trap you into making mistakes. If you put together a less mobile crew for Colette, Angelica can become very helpful. She may have attack actions on her card, but in my experience she's hardly ever using them.

A pair of Coryphee presents an interesting puzzle for you and your opponent. The longer they live, the more dangerous they are to your opponent--but they're still relatively fragile and the pair is a 14 stone investment. Every time I've ever held off on merging them into a Duet I've regretted it, so I'm in the habit of having a Duet by the end of the first activation of Turn 2. One of the other things I look at if I'm considering a pair of Coryphee is whether or not I'm bringing another pricey model, and whether or not my opponent is incentivized by the strat/schemes to kill them faster than they would normally.

If I'm bringing a pair of Coryphee, I'm leaving behind other high-cost models. I know I'll always be out-activated by some lists, but I prefer to make sure that I'm not out-activated by everyone. I've found that being out-activated actually hurts my ability to score on schemes (and positioning strategies) because my opponent gets a handful of activations after I can no longer influence the board state to finalize their turn. So if I swap out the Coryphee for something slightly cheaper that won't be merging into a single activation or otherwise forcing me to conduct my turn(s) in a specific way or lose out on stone-to-work value, I'll think about bringing something else that's big. The Emissary is a solid piece for all of our masters, and can provide Colette & Company with a reusable ability buffer.
With how scheme-savvy Colette can run, the Mech Rider might not find itself in the same role in her crew that she has in other crews. She can still drop scheme markers all over the place as a trigger on her attack, which lets you go other directions with Colette & Company. I find that if I'm using the Rider with Colette, I'm playing close to the rest of the crew in order to set up abilities or disrupt my opponent with her summons. Being able to summon in Arachnids, Fire Gamin, Metal Gamin, etc. (4 stone constructs) in response to what my opponent is doing or has on the table can be very useful.
Whether it's the Emissary, Mech Rider, Coryphee Duet, or Howard Langston, one of the worst things that can happen when you put a lot of stones into one basket is Paralyze--so if you bring a big beater/utility, you might also want to bring along the Arcane Effigy or another form of condition removal.

Due to my experiences with activation counts, I'm more inclined to bring a couple utility/beater models over a single expensive one. I've messed around with using Rail Workers, Large Steam Arachnids and other similar minion because they've got mechanics that enable them to spike their attacks and damage, allowing them to punch outside of their weight class (5/6 stone minions killing 8 stone enforcers in a single activation), and Union Miners block triggers when attacking. When I go this direction with my crew, Angelica finds her way into the crew because her start of game walk puts her where she needs to be, and her pushes mitigate the inherent slowness of the minions that will be doing the actual work.

[FunkyCape]

@spooky_squirrel thank you for the writeup, very usefull! So, if you don't pick 2 Coryphee and big model in one crew, how do you realize when it's better to pick 2 Coryphee or 1 big model. 

[Mxbedlam]

Terrain makes a big difference in my opinion. If Howard's 50mm base is gonna have trouble navigating the board before it gets to models, then 2 coryphee will be able to do it better before they merge. Also, does my opponent have a chance of bringing armor piercing? If so (Neverborn, Gremlins, Guild) I will stay away from Coryphee as that's their biggest df

[spooky_squirrel]

On 2/24/2017 at 10:25 PM, FunkyCape said:

@spooky_squirrel thank you for the writeup, very usefull! So, if you don't pick 2 Coryphee and big model in one crew, how do you realize when it's better to pick 2 Coryphee or 1 big model. 

One of the things that I would recommend doing if you want compare one big model to another is run the same scenario twice, with the same crew (except for swapping out the big model) against the same opponent with the same strat/schemes. Talk to your opponent after both games about how your choice affected their play and keep your own notes on how each one contributed to scoring/denying victory points. That will give you nearly equal comparisons between the two for that scenario.

To get a broader sense of which one to take when, use them both in different games with similar crews. One of the things that makes side-by-side comparison difficult is the hiring limit. If half your available stones are tied up in two beaters (3 models if one is the Coryphee), you don't have the same kind of behind the lines support for the scheme completion. If you're playing into Tail Em and Dig Their Graves, you'll want Colette to have some spare minions or showgirls to get those grave markers down, and minions are the only things that can spot opposing leadership.

You'll find, as @Mrbedlam mentions, there are crews that will blow through armor. Anything that ignores armor will make the Coryphee more of a liability than an asset. You'll want other things working for you if your beater is going to get work done. I would even caution against using the Coryphee into Arcanists, because if your opponent decides to start the table with 2+ Metal Gamin (and why not? If I'm playing into Arcanists I'm expecting constructs and can use extra defensive tech) they need two activations to completely ruin your day, which means that you're going to be wanting to merge them as fast as possible. You won't get any Turn 1 work out of the individual Coryphee without running the risk of them dying to a long-range Magnetism (you'll be at a positive to resist, but they're at Ca 8 and can overbid you).

If you think your opponent is going to blow through armor early and at range, Coryphee won't cut it. Another armored big model might work better simply because it takes more to knock them down than it does to kill a single Coryphee (i.e. Howard Langston). If you think your opponent might not care about armor at all at any range (death by a thousand cuts or ignore armor everywhere), then you'll probably want to lean towards a big model that doesn't rely on armor to get its work done (or stay alive). Blessed/Luther is on the fragile side, but can Eat Your Fill to go from near dead to fully healthy on a kill. On the other side of the coin, the Cerberus is fragile but terrifying and can get a considerable volume of attacks if you're flipping/cheating in to swing again. Both of these choices can (0) to leap around, giving them tremendous mobility as well.

The caveat here is to make sure that you're hiring them for a reason, that that reason makes sense, and that you use them for that reason. For example: I know that Luther or Cerberus will die early. My opponents know better than to leave them alive (enough Marcus players and Myranda-shifting in my meta to engender that kind of response) to get work done. Luther makes for a great scheme hunter and Cerberus is a solid cruise missile (especially if you sac a Dove to put it on positives before sending it on the assault). If Frame for Murder is in the pool, I can use either of them to run up and make someone's day miserable until they kill the beast. I typically will use Luther for this, because his base size fits in more areas and his 2 locks down a circle roughly 5.5" across (where Cerberus is roughly 4"), forcing my opponent to deal with it just to be able to do whatever they were planning on doing. The downside of this is if they were planning on burying it, paralyzing it, or just plain killing it, I've served it up to them and the best I can hope for is 2VP. The important thing is that I'm not hiring them because I expect them to survive to the end of the game, because that would make no sense unless I'm playing against someone who doesn't need to kill a model to deal with it.

Which goes to the other side of the coin with something like the Mechanical Rider. She only really shines in the late game, so if I'm hiring her, it's to get 3+VP by doing what she does best: moving around dropping scheme markers while popping out fire/metal gamin or little spiders. I need her to live, but she's got a huge footprint, so if the terrain doesn't support keeping a Ht3 50mm base model out of line of sight for the first turn or I don't know how my opponent's threat ranges I won't hire her in. If I do have favorable terrain or an opponent that's a little more predictable in how they range and threat, I'll hire her in to do things like Leave Your Mark, Set Up, Interference, etc.

[iamfanboy]

One thing I've been pondering, now that there is another decent Showgirl beater and we don't have to reach out of theme, are Oiran. No Witnesses (can't declare Attacks against models with the Showgirl keyword!) combined with her frankly insane Cg range and cheap (for the potential effect) price can be devastating. I can't wait to get Carlos so I can try with a pair of Oiran as guided missiles to cripple offensively oriented lists on the crucial turns.

But maybe that's just because I want the kunoichi; however, I want a ton of minis so I can't really say that much about it. 

5 Colette DuBois w/ Arcane Reservoir, Cabaret Choreography, Nothing Up My Sleeve
9 Carlos Vasquez w/ Stunt Double
10 Cassandra w/ Smoke & Mirrors, Recharge Soulstone
6 Oiran
6 Oiran
7 Coryphee
7 Coryphee

Replace the Coryphee with a Performer and two Mannequins in an interact-heavy list instead, with Practiced Production on Carlos - or drop one Mannequin to bring Colette's reserve to 7 and really fish for high Tomes turn 1-2. That's why Arcane Reservoir and Nothing Up My Sleeve are both there as well.

It's not as though it's a one-trick list either (Colette? One trick? Hah!) the Oiran have Lure to give to Cassandra (who can stone for the Crow and at Ca8 isn't an easy resist). I think two Oiran are necessary because they're high-priority targets and you really want to lock your opponent out.

Dammit. Now I REALLY want Carlos. *whinewhine* when is he released??

[spooky_squirrel]

Carlos doesn't appear to be on the near-term schedule, but he might be made available if there's any special sales (I ordered mine as part of the Black Friday specials).

[Boomstick]

3 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Carlos doesn't appear to be on the near-term schedule, but he might be made available if there's any special sales (I ordered mine as part of the Black Friday specials).

Easter is coming.

[Trixter]

I was faced with a serious issue. I'll need to deal with experienced Guild player (Sonnia/Perdita/Lady J) in typical GG matchup. I expect enough LOS blocking and different cover terrain. But really worry about durability which isn't strong side of Colette crew. I'm ready to loose one / two models per turn. But I still don't realize how to score 10 VP before 4th turn end (after which I assume I'll have no models to score).

If we only talk about scheme pool (without strategy) - which two is the best for Colette under Guild's pressure? What models you'll suggest and with which roles?

[iamfanboy]

On 4/7/2017 at 2:17 AM, Trixter said:

I was faced with a serious issue. I'll need to deal with experienced Guild player (Sonnia/Perdita/Lady J) in typical GG matchup. I expect enough LOS blocking and different cover terrain. But really worry about durability which isn't strong side of Colette crew. I'm ready to loose one / two models per turn. But I still don't realize how to score 10 VP before 4th turn end (after which I assume I'll have no models to score).

If we only talk about scheme pool (without strategy) - which two is the best for Colette under Guild's pressure? What models you'll suggest and with which roles?

Considering that there's a whole big thread in the Guild section partly about how Frame For Murder is basically free VPs for their opponent? I'd start there. Colette also avoids the pitfall of being super killy so she's unlikely to give away the full VP amount on it.

Inspection would force them to make some hard choices about hunting down models and splitting their crew - and Guild may not have the mobility to move for both corners and maintain a presence in the center.

Dig Their Graves would also be surprisingly hard, I'd think, since they'd have to carefully plot where to drop the Scheme Markers in order to kill your guys whereas you can spray them across the table for free and spend your AP killing.

Set Up would be good for much the same reason.

And of course, there's always Claim Jump. Always.

Colette is surprisingly hard to kill, and so is Cassandra provided you always have Southern Charm up. One horrible thing I did to a beginning Perdita player was charge an Oiran into her and nail her with the No Witnesses trigger so she couldn't attack any Showgirls.

[Mxbedlam]

Tried a brand new colette crew out this weekend for Guard Stash. My list was:

Colette (Nothing Up My Sleeve, Reservoir)

Carlos Vasquez (Practiced Production, Stunt Double)

Joss (warding runes)

3 Oxfordian Mages (Temporary Shielding, Runes)

Perfomer

Raptor

the idea was to put Joss and carlos on stash markers and use mages to bounce people out of the way. The performer was there to stay in the back field and harass scheme runners. It worked like a charm. Carlos is crazy tanky and with stunt double can remove scheme markers pretty easy. Had plenty of control with the mages to keep things out of combat and slowed.

[Sybarite]

Did anybody try McTavish with Colette? Seems like they would like each other. Great prompt target, and she can feed the gator with markers.