Need help playing Lilith

[ScifiRonin]

I was wondering... have you actually read the books, and read about Neverborn- what they are etc?

 

This is not to sound condescending in any way, but I just have a very different view about the Neverborn then what it seems like you have

I've not read the book yet (as I don't own it yet) but will be reading anything I see online when I get the chance 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Mr Graves isn't human. He's a Nephilim Masquerading as a human. Just like Mr. Tannen is a Woe doing the same.

[Joel]

and Tuco used to be human - one of the Ortegas - but was captured, tortured and corrupted by Nekima and is now a Nephilim.

[ScifiRonin]

Mr Graves isn't human. He's a Nephilim Masquerading as a human. Just like Mr. Tannen is a Woe doing the same.

Maybe I'll get him, add some horns and paint him my colour scheme or something.

 

and Tuco used to be human - one of the Ortegas - but was captured, tortured and corrupted by Nekima and is now a Nephilim.

I will be getting him as he doesn't look human, and his model looks Awesome! 

[Uktena]

Lilith getting some horns?

[ScifiRonin]

Lilith getting some horns?

Most likely 

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Well, the best formula is 1 part Lilith with aether connection and 1 part Nekima. The rest, don't even bother. Seriously, you don't even need more models after that. 

But, I would go a full 7 stones with Lilith and the upgrade that prevents an addition wound. I think Living blade is awesome, but not necessary really.

 

;D

 

Okok, maybe you'll want more. I don't recommend Lelu or Lilitu, they are IMO stat'ed for summoning not for hiring.

 

The question is, do you want to grow? Do you want to wall up behind trees and waldghiests? I mean, there's almost no way you cannot run Lilith that wouldn't be somewhat effective. Her crew doesn't depend on a specific mechanic or anything.

[ScifiRonin]

Well, the best formula is 1 part Lilith with aether connection and 1 part Nekima. The rest, don't even bother. Seriously, you don't even need more models after that. 

But, I would go a full 7 stones with Lilith and the upgrade that prevents an addition wound. I think Living blade is awesome, but not necessary really.

Hmm, I don't know the Aether Connection card, what does that do?

 

 

Okok, maybe you'll want more. I don't recommend Lelu or Lilitu, they are IMO stat'ed for summoning not for hiring.

So Lelu and Lilitu are bad? I thought there stats looked good.

 

 

he question is, do you want to grow? Do you want to wall up behind trees and waldghiests? I mean, there's almost no way you cannot run Lilith that wouldn't be somewhat effective. Her crew doesn't depend on a specific mechanic or anything.

I think I like the idea of grow more, because I like the idea of swarming with TTs and then getting bigger ones 

[Uktena]

Hmm, I don't know the Aether Connection card, what does that do?

+1 Damage Prevention when using Soulstone for Damage Prevention

 

 

So Lelu and Lilitu are bad? I thought there stats looked good.

They are good.

 

 

I think I like the idea of grow more, because I like the idea of swarming with TTs and then getting bigger ones 

Grow is a great list, but you'll be surprised how valuable Tater Tots are by themselves soon enough.

[ScifiRonin]

 

 

Grow is a great list, but you'll be surprised how valuable Tater Tots are by themselves soon enough.

 

I heard that from allot of Tactics Posts, that most people underestimate the TTs

[Joel]

I actually don't rate the twins (lelu and lilitu) myself. By all means, try them out and see what you think though.

[Gorbad]

The twins are tricky to get use out of. I think Lilitu is fine, her 4" engagement range can be used for interesting things, she got a good lure, etc. I've not really been able to use Lelu to anything impressive when I've tried him. I'm also thinking that often times they work better as individuals than as a pair. You lose the additional healing, but don't have to suffer the condition bleed either.

[ScifiRonin]

I actually don't rate the twins (lelu and lilitu) myself. By all means, try them out and see what you think though.

 

 

The twins are tricky to get use out of. I think Lilitu is fine, her 4" engagement range can be used for interesting things, she got a good lure, etc. I've not really been able to use Lelu to anything impressive when I've tried him. I'm also thinking that often times they work better as individuals than as a pair. You lose the additional healing, but don't have to suffer the condition bleed either.

I can see the Lilitu can work very well with a net of TTs, and with the right action Lelu can be part of that net so I can see them working together, I probably just grab them when they come out as Plastic and try them out.

[Ikvar]

I have now had three games with Lilith and a swampfiend crew, I won two and the last was a very close defeat. For those interested I had this list (change the Waldgeist and Silurid according to schemes):

 

Neverborn Crew - 50 - Scrap

 

Lilith -- 4 Pool

 +Beckon Malifaux [1]

 +Living Blade [2]

 +Wicked Mistress [1]

 

Primordial Magic [2]

Bad Juju [8]

 +Eternal Fiend [2]

 +Fears Given Form [1]

Nekima [13]

 +Fears Given Form [1]

Silurid [7]

Waldgeist [6]

Waldgeist [6]

 

Nekima and Bad Juju keeping them busy, while Lilith kills runaway models and the rest taking care of schemes. 

 

I did not understand Lilith upgrades in the beginning, but last game it just clicked- you activate her (0)Sudden darkness to get +1 dmg, then place a forest with Illusionary Forest 1inch away from the one you want to charge. With her 3range you can now charge a model 9inches away, running through a forest for the +1dmg. But wait theres more!^^

- you still have 1AP, so you now cast Wicked Mistress to push them into the forest (severe terrain), giving them a 1/2/3 dmg flip and the slow condition, and because you have Living blade you can now take a free 1AP ML action. I killed more or less anything I charged this way.

 

This might seem obvious for some of you guys, but I just wanted to share it with the rest of the Neverborn noobs like myself ^^

 

Anyway my question was actually about a growth list, I have just ordered the nephilim and Lilith box, so I thought it would be fun to actually use some of those models. I have been thinking about this list(as always this is just to get a generel idea, I know list building is not good in this game):

 

Neverborn Crew - 50 - Scrap

 

Lilith -- 4 Pool

 +Beckon Malifaux [1]

 +Living Blade [2]

 +Wicked Mistress [1]

 

Barbaros [10]

 +Rapid Growth [1]

Nekima [13]

 +The True Mother [2]

Terror Tot [4]

Terror Tot [4]

Young Nephilim [6]

Young Nephilim [6]

 

Any thoughts? good or bad?

[Joel]

just a thought, but why charge with Lilith at all?

 

cast your forest - use transfixing gaze to have them push their charge towards you.

 

they take the damage, they go slow, you get the pounce-like attack (at positive flips on attack and damage that you don't get if you charge)

 

you then get 2 more swings, also on +ve flips, if you need them.

 

 

as an alternative, use wicked vines to root them first (for 1 damage), then cast your forest and transfixing gaze - this will cause them 3 damage for rooted, then damage for terrain (1/2/3) and slow - and the pounce attack at positive flips - and then another swing at positive flips.

 

overall, more damage at better odds and you didn't have to stir from your nice, safe cover.

 

why go to them when they can come to you?

[Ikvar]

Hmm, I definitely see your point, and I assume the first 4dmg from Vicked Vines is magic, so it would be awsome vs incorporeal, and as you also mention you dont have to come to them and be at a bigger risk of retaliation. However with the other way you will get a longer reach as you dont get to use the 3inch from your weapon- the model needs to be pushed 1inch towards you for the punch to work. You are also at the mercy of your opponents Cg, and all models in the game dont have the 6Cg like Lilith so your threat range becomes shorter and shorter. When you use the charge with Sudden Darkness you also get +1dmg for two attacks, making your minimum 4dmg which is pretty nice- you dont get the positiv flip though, but it is also less card intensive if you wanted to cheat the dmg with the positiv flip.

 

I definitely see a place for your way- if you dont want to get to close to the enemy, and even better if you are up against a model with incorporeal. But other then that, I think the other way with the charge has a bigger damage potential

[EntrepeNinja]

With respect-

 

It doesn't have a higher damage potential. 

 

If you charge and use sudden darkness and have the terrain to charge through, you're at 4/5/7 at a straight flip to attack. You can use that attack 3 time, for min damage 12, max damage 21 (on three severe damage flips which are harder to pull off without the plus flip to damage)

 

It takes a few upgrades (if you've already got the terrain in place, then wicked mistress and Living Blade), but I like to take beckon malifaux as well so I can place my own trees as a (0).

 

0 action summon trees. (no damage yet)

1 action wicked vines (One Damage from Caste)

1 Action Transfixing Gaze (3 damage from pull, 1/2/3 damage from them ending in sever terrain and they get slowed)

Free Action: you get to take your free attack from the living blade from Thirsy Mandrake (3/4/6) 

1 action Melee Attack (3/4/6)

 

Total Damage min 11, 19 max. You sacrifice a some damage, but give your self a higher chance of flipping moderate or severe, so they're more likely to happen. You also have the ability to place a lilitu, or some tots/youngs around to to either pounce them for more free attacks, or give the kill credit to them so they can grow. 

 

Play how you like to, but imho Nekima and Barbaros are the chargers, Lilith is half a control piece as well as half a damage/beater. I'm with Joel.

 

ENinja

 

Edit: This is presuming that all attacks, at the minimum, go off successfully. Which, by the way, you have a higher chance of if you've got the plus flip to attack. (Just sayin')...

 

Edit 2: Heerrrrp. Just went back and looked at your post again. The damage spread would be different, but the chance to flip moderates to severes and your chance to hit still go up, and you're still keeping yourself in a potentially safer place, and you're also still prompting pounce attacks. K, done.

(The spread from your method would be min 13, max 21)

[Ikvar]

Wauw, thanks for doing the math for me Eninja!

I am never sad or angry when I am proven wrong, just happy to get a better understanding of the subject, so again thanks for taking your time doing all that ^^

 

After reading your post there are no doubt your way is the better in a Nephilim list, I dident even think about putting some terror tots there both to punch and to grow after their certain doom

 

And speaking about growing Tots... any chance I can get you guys to comment on my list

 

You forgot that I still use the lure after the charge though, and still make them push into terrrain giving them 1/2/3 dmg and slow, making it a 13min dmg and 21 max dmg and also slow. But if I am doing the grow thing I would definitely choose your option

[Ikvar]

Hehe, good timing with the edit ^^

 

And yes your way is still both the safer way, and more consistent with the +flip

[Ikvar]

What about a list like this then:

 

Neverborn Crew - 50 - Scrap

 

Lilith -- 4 Pool

 +Beckon Malifaux [1]

 +Living Blade [2]

 +Wicked Mistress [1]

 

Cherub [3]

Barbaros [10]

 +Nephilim Gladiatus [1]

 +Rapid Growth [1]

Black Blood Shaman [7]

Nekima [13]

 +Obsidian Talons [1]

 +The True Mother [2]

Terror Tot [4]

Terror Tot [4]

 

Or is it to risky to count on Nekima making more Terror Tots with the Black blood shaman?

[Zwergenkrieger]

Just wanted to say that this is really an awesome thread!

[ScifiRonin]

Yes this has been really helpful (even after it was Hijacked by Ikvar  ) So I'll thank everyone that gave a total noob (thats me  ) some help.

[EntrepeNinja]

Nekima with a black blood shaman at her back is truly terrifying. Her zero, and his ability to damage for more black blood prompts while also potentially healing folks is sick. And, Born of Blood stipulates that both black blood and black blood pustule attacks count for Terror Tot summoning. 

You might think about letting Lilitu or even graves be you rapid growth enforcer. Barbaros has a direct push which takes tricky positioning to lead things into the murder box. Lilitu has a solid lure at 7 casting, while Graves has a push with a follow up push on a ml action- and an ugly little trigger.

If I'm reading this right, and correct me if I'm wrong. Graves can charge, use show ya the door. Push the charged model towards your home base, get a trigger that allows him to take a fence post swing, then do that whole thing again... Meaning, perfect world, 4 attacks with two pushes (enemy any direction, then into b2b) on charge? Which depending on placement could prompt pounce both times? Buh.

 

(Edit: "Show ya the door" only pushes, no damage unless you get the ram trigger to make the fencepost attack. Meaning that unless you really wanted the slew of attacks from the extra push, the fence post would be a better second charge action. It's late...)

 

So here's my take on that list-

 

Neverborn Crew - 50 - Scrap

 

Lilith -- 4 Pool

 +Beckon Malifaux [1]

 +Living Blade [2]

 +Wicked Mistress [1]

 

Primordial Magic [2]

Black Blood Shaman [7]

Mr. Graves [8]

 +Rapid Growth [1]

Nekima [13]

 +Fears Given Form [1]

 +The True Mother [2]

Terror Tot [4]

Terror Tot [4]

Terror Tot [4]

 

 

Blackblood shaman and the Mr. Graves take midfield- their job is to support Nekima, and yank bigger stuff off her and into "The Lair". BBS tries to keep Nekima healed up while doing aoe damage (Black Blood Pustule). Nekima takes point, creating a choke point, and hopfully killing some stuff. Weaken em up with Lorelei, then try and finish 'em off with Blood For Blood, summoning Tots whenever she can. 

 

Lilith and the tot-swarm hang back and lure/pounce things from the comfort of home. "Momma's new man Mr. Graves is bringing home some takeout." When graves pushes things back and is in range, try and use high rams to whack 'em with a fence post, and if they die, you can feed 'em to a tot. And if they don't the tots get to swaaaaarm. If it dies, Lillith can tangle shadows to put Graves back up field where he's useful, if it doesn't, it's a threat to the nest and must be destroyed. 

 

...I'm kind of excited about this list. It doesn't seem to be practical for much besides potentially recernoiter, or maybe turf war, if you can jam a Nekima up their gullet, then hold midfield with the swarm. The tots can alternatively be used to run objectives, as they'll have to, and the primordial magic pays for himself in "Rush of Magic" card advantage, and the option to use him for things like plant explosives and such. 

 

I'm sure your list is totally fine- Barbaros is a major tank, and has some wheels so he could be a decent runner- it's just hard to imagine two models in a lillith crew that are 10+ before upgrades. 

[Joel]

Not 4 attacks that can damage though, but 4 duels yes.

 

Mr. Graves charges (2)

 

uses (1) show ya the door to push a model - then moves to it and takes a swing with his fence post.  (so 2 duels, but only 1 damaging swing) - then repeats this.

 

2 pushes and 2 attacks if you have the rams to hit the trigger both times.

 

But yes - he's rather good if you can set that up and use it to feed a grow list.

[Ikvar]

Hey Jesse, your thread is named "help with Lillith", which is exactly what I also needed, and I thought it would be a bit silly to make two threads named exactly the same. But I will be more then happy to make my own if you feel like I have hijacked this one from you

 

I am very interested to know if you actually get the kill when you actively use the black blood ability with BBS and Nekimas zero ability- as I am pretty sure you wont get the kill by the passive ability. So would I both be able to grow a Terror Tot from it aswell as summon one?

 

Btw the whole lure and punch thing with a Terror Tot and lilith seems a bit silly for me- the TT wont do enough dmg to really make a difference or justify their cost just sitting there with her, and making them do the kill for growing them seems very hard to controle when Lilith have started her onslaught