Actions causing actions. when a model is killed

[The Godlyness]

If this works then does that mean that when Collodi kills a model with Pull the Strings he can use the My Bidding Trigger to make them perform an action before they are removed from the table? -Aramoro

 

Also, just to appease you, I haven't seen any debate on Collodi's Trigger....unless there is something else that I have missed to tell me I'm wrong about it.....I WOULD say that Collodi's Trigger would go off first......considering the Trigger steps I quoted, and the 'Actions causing Actions' Call-out box on page 38. -dgraz

 

 

 

The Godlyness

On collodi's trigger its done after damage is done and models state is checked if the model is alive certainly it does a 1 ap action. If a model is killed how ever its not around to take that action.

Hahaha.....time for a new thread (or point me to the old one) because the Actions causing Actions call-out says that the original action isn't considered resolved until the new one is.

 

 

 

I think the main point of issue is the use of the word "Immediately". I've been searching, and I can't seem to find it, but wasn't there a discussion about "Immediately" not being the same as instantaneously, but rather after any automatic effects, but before anything optional can be added?

 

I think it had to do with Actions being caused by Actions. Or maybe I'm just misremembering something.

 

EDIT: Because if you remove the model "immediately" after taking damage, how can you then place a corpse/scrap marker before removing the model?-Morgan Vening

 

You can place corpse or scrap makers because under markers it says before the model is removed place the appropriate marker.

 

but under damage

 

When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

 

so for Collodi the model is dead before it can perform the action. -The Godlyness

 

 

 

 

[rgarbonzo]

Yes I stand corrected, after damaging takes place before a model is removed from the table. Damn, one of those things I have to remember!

[dgraz]

Now let's use the honor system here how many times have you actually flipped cards after declaring a trigger of after damaging. When the model died from the attack.

What? What do you mean 'flipped cards after damaging'? For what?

[The Godlyness]

For a secondary attack generated by the first after the first haskilled the model.

[dgraz]

Ahh. Yeah, no never.....and I use the Cerberus a lot....happens all the time. Just don't realize the timing.

[The Godlyness]

Well this is going to get buried but my other thread was locked so my question how ever stupid or counter intuitive it is

Posted Today, 02:01 PM

Model A targets model B with an attack action declares onslaught as his trigger. The damage flip reduces the model to 0 wounds and kills it. Before the model is removed onslaught happens you attack the model again and succeed in hitting. Go to the damage flip you have succeedd in doing damage(was not prevented etc). The model was was previously at 0 wounds. Does it count as being killed again.

Next thing. Decapitate, headshot, disembowl. You deal damage which reduces its wounds to 0 (kills the model) The trigger happens which says discard 2 ss or 2 cards or it is killed. Does this model count as being killed twice if the cards/ss are not discarded.

Why this matters killjoy healing twice. Icegamin/Golem fire gamin witchling stalkers deathmarshals doing their "when killed" effects twice. Tally sheet drawing 2 cards. Etc.

Please direct me to the appropriate pages saying a model can only be killed once in the rule book

[Dracomax]

Keep in mind that you do not have to use triggers unless the trigger specifies.

 

So any kind of trigger that says after damaging but does not say "this model must use a trigger if possible" or something similar is optional, and therefore if the model is dead, does not require flipping other cards, but would allow it.

[The Godlyness]

MR Onslaught: After damaging, immediately take another (1) Ml Attack Action against the same target. This Action may not declare triggers

It does not say you may take another 1. It says do it now.

Now you may declare triggers but once you do you have to follow through.

[rgarbonzo]

I would say that once a model is killed, it cannot be killed again. So Killjoy could take another Ml attack action targeting the same model but it is already dead. Same thing with Death Marshals, once they are killed they perform Finish the Job, they don't get killed again.

[Ausplosions]

This is ridiculous.

A model is reduced to 0 Wounds.

It is killed.

Amy triggers that occur after damaging happen now.

The model is still dead.

Remove the model.

It DOES NOT GET KILLED TWICE.

Just stop.

[TranquilitiesEnd]

Unless your james bond, then you only live twice

[entropolous]

Its not Killed +1, so no killed does not stack.

;-)

[The Godlyness]

This is ridiculous.A model is reduced to 0 Wounds.It is killed.Amy triggers that occur after damaging happen now.The model is still dead.Remove the model.It DOES NOT GET KILLED TWICE.Just stop.

For a decapitate trigger it clearly says it is killed. When it was reduced to 0 from the attack that allowed decapitate it was killed. It as now been killed twice.

Killed is not a condition therefore the +1 is irealavent.

[entropolous]

When a model is reduced to 0 or fewer wounds it is "removed from the game as killed" not "killed." Once the model is removed from the game, it cannot be removed from the game again as it has already been removed from the game. There is no longer a model to remove. Since you cannot remove the model from the game again, it cannot be killed again.

[Ausplosions]

For a decapitate trigger it clearly says it is killed. When it was reduced to 0 from the attack that allowed decapitate it was killed. It as now been killed twice.

Killed is not a condition therefore the +1 is irealavent.

Dear God this is ridiculous.

I'm out.

[dgraz]

Dear God this is ridiculous.

I'm out.

I'm with you. Holy crap.

[zFiend]

What? So now when models die they don't die, but instead they die twice?  

[The Godlyness]

When a model is reduced to 0 or fewer wounds it is "removed from the game as killed" not "killed." Once the model is removed from the game, it cannot be removed from the game again as it has already been removed from the game. There is no longer a model to remove. Since you cannot remove the model from the game again, it cannot be killed again.

So decapitate headshot etc. In reality they say reduce this model to zero wounds counts as killed? No. They say model is killed. The difference is that if that was the case these instant kill triggers could trigger things like sonnias reincarnation which they dont.

[Clement]

Since your basically repeating the same thing over an over here, what are you actually after? Justin has already stated that we want a "common sense" reading of the rules, which you don't seem to be satisfied with.

[The Godlyness]

Common sense says that if I hit you with an attack that kills you but generates another I should not need to attack a dead model. Common sense to me means making a killed model perform a (1) action is dumb. But in the cinematic side its cool. Sonnai lashing back at rasputina. A dead justice making a final swing. Perdita last gasping shooting something. Collodi attaching strings to corpse and making it dance. Etc. In the strategic point of veiw you both burn cards so what ever.

Killed needs a definition. Being reduced to zero wounds is one way but there are clearly more.

[The Godlyness]

Now a more answerable question.

Collodi attack killjoy and hits him declares Do My Bidding trigger. The damage flip kills killjoy. Before killjoy ie removed the action he takes kills a model and heals him. Now is killjoy still killed or is he alive with what ever wounds he healed.

[Clement]

I'd say he's still killed.  He was reduced to 0 or fewer wounds by an enemy attack, so he's done.

[Ausplosions]

But is he dead twice?

Or thrice?

Or spice?

[The Godlyness]

Idk hence the question

[Aramoro]

When a model is reduced to 0 or fewer wounds it is "removed from the game as killed" not "killed." Once the model is removed from the game, it cannot be removed from the game again as it has already been removed from the game. There is no longer a model to remove. Since you cannot remove the model from the game again, it cannot be killed again.

 

Not until after your trigger has resolved! 

 

The rule specifies this case so they have clearly thought about it and want this interaction. Though I don't think you can be killed twice, as the model is already killed during the trigger, it's just waiting to be removed. 

[hypoking]

When is a model at zero wounds not a dead model?