Actions causing actions. when a model is killed

[The Godlyness]

If this works then does that mean that when Collodi kills a model with Pull the Strings he can use the My Bidding Trigger to make them perform an action before they are removed from the table? -Aramoro

 

Also, just to appease you, I haven't seen any debate on Collodi's Trigger....unless there is something else that I have missed to tell me I'm wrong about it.....I WOULD say that Collodi's Trigger would go off first......considering the Trigger steps I quoted, and the 'Actions causing Actions' Call-out box on page 38. -dgraz

 

 

 

The Godlyness

On collodi's trigger its done after damage is done and models state is checked if the model is alive certainly it does a 1 ap action. If a model is killed how ever its not around to take that action.

Hahaha.....time for a new thread (or point me to the old one) because the Actions causing Actions call-out says that the original action isn't considered resolved until the new one is.

 

 

 

I think the main point of issue is the use of the word "Immediately". I've been searching, and I can't seem to find it, but wasn't there a discussion about "Immediately" not being the same as instantaneously, but rather after any automatic effects, but before anything optional can be added?

 

I think it had to do with Actions being caused by Actions. Or maybe I'm just misremembering something.

 

EDIT: Because if you remove the model "immediately" after taking damage, how can you then place a corpse/scrap marker before removing the model?-Morgan Vening

 

You can place corpse or scrap makers because under markers it says before the model is removed place the appropriate marker.

 

but under damage

 

When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

 

so for Collodi the model is dead before it can perform the action. -The Godlyness

 

 

 

 

[Morgan Vening]

That first post might need to be reformatted. It's definitely not pretty.

 

My point was, that if there's time to put a Corpse Token down, then you're not removing the model IMMEDIATELY after it's taken damage. Meaning there is a time period between a model being reduced to zero wounds, and a model being removed from play. And there are other issues with Immediately that seem to indicate it's not instantaneous (Killjoy's Onslaught).

[The Godlyness]

I think if the Rulebook say's you place a counter before you remove the model you do cause it Specifically says so.

 

If killjoy onslaughted a model and his first attack killed the model he would be healed, now If his second attack is allowed (which its not the model was killed and removed) and he succeeds the duel and does damage and the model is still killed would he heal again from the second one also?  See how absurd this is?  the model is killed do any and all abilities required on death (finish the job, marker placement etc) then remove the model.

 

or since the model is killed twice would a Death Marshell drop 2 Scheme markers for that 1 action you took? Look more absurdity.

[dgraz]

I think the confusion is when is damage applied.....which is where the 'immediately' problem is. But, just as in the post about Sonnia, you just have to look at the timing clarifications in the book. They tell you when abilities and triggers are applied........most are based around 'success' or 'determining success'. That happens before damage is applied.

 

Now, if there is something that allows you to do something after being reduced to 0.....that is also easy because the rulebook clearly says that when it conflicts with a rule on a card, the rule on the card overrides the book.

[Aramoro]

This one is clearer to me than the other case. 

 

Page 26 of the Rule book states that the effects are resolved before the model is removed from play. 

 

Page 36 Actions Causing Actions states that the original action is not resolved until the new one is, so the model will act on 0 wounds and die immediately after the trigger is resolved.

[The Godlyness]

Ok then, when kill joy kills something he heals if he onslaughts a model that is at 0 wounds does it count as killed again? Is the model counted as killed twice?

 

(1) Cleaver (Ml 7R / Rst: Df / Rg: y2): Target suffers 4/5/7 damage. After killing a model with this attack, this model heals 2/3/4 damage.

 

Would the first attack heal him and then would the second attack heal him?

 

if he killed a death marshell would he drop 2 Scheme markers for being killed twice?

 

would a witching stalker Explode twice for 2Damage and Burning +2

[Morgan Vening]

Ok then, when kill joy kills something he heals if he onslaughts a model that is at 0 wounds does it count as killed again? Is the model counted as killed twice?

No. A model can only be killed once.

 

The question instead is, is the second attack done before the first model is removed? Which again comes back to Wyrd's definition/use of the word "immediately". Which is what's caused this discussion.

[Aramoro]

According to page 26, You have already been killed, you just haven't been removed from the table. So you wouldn't be killed twice. I don't think there's anything which says killed models can't be compelled to act? Maybe there is!

[The Godlyness]

Where does it say you can't be killed twice? Did the second attack cause you to be at 0 wounds then you are killed (again)

[Aramoro]

Where does it say you can't be killed twice? Did the second attack cause you to be at 0 wounds then you are killed (again)

 

You only get killed when you're wounds are reduced to 0, page 52. So you're fine Woo!

[The Godlyness]

Here is something funny then rasputina is at 1 wound shoots sonnia with decembers curse triggering overpower. The attack kills sonnia now since the trigger already declared you must shoot her again this time she defends with the red joker and triggers reflect magic and kills rasputina. Absurdity at its best.

[Ausplosions]

This thread is confusing.

Mostly because the first post looks like Godlyness is talking to himself.

Also because the "killed twice" argument is ridiculous.

[The Godlyness]

When writing on this always feels like i am talking to my self.

[Ausplosions]

Here is something funny then rasputina is at 1 wound shoots sonnia with decembers curse triggering overpower. The attack kills sonnia now since the trigger already declared you must shoot her again this time she defends with the red joker and triggers reflect magic and kills rasputina. Absurdity at its best.

Point me to the rule that will keep Sonnia on the board for the second attack?

[The Godlyness]

Did you read the rest of thread? I say once a model is dead then its not around for other actions caused by an action. People above me seem to disagree.

[Ausplosions]

One person.

And they are wrong.

[Aramoro]

One person.

And they are wrong.

 

Page 26 of the rulebook :After Damaging : These effects happen after step 5 and only if the target suffers one or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage

 

That's a direct quote from the rulebook.

 

So why am I wrong exactly?

[Ausplosions]

Meh confusion has been had.

Yes, if it is triggers after damaging, then yes. For some reason I though you were saying you could attack a dead model with a new action.

Apologies.

[dgraz]

Wow.

[Ausplosions]

Wow.

Wow what?

[dgraz]

Wow what?

The amount of over-thinking going on.

[rgarbonzo]

Straight up no Collodi cannot make a model that was killed do something with his trigger. Immediately means remove the model as soon as it is reduced to 0 wounds or fewer.  The only time you drop a corpse marker is if either player has a model that can interact with them. If there are no models to interact with the marker, the marker is not dropped and the model is removed from play without Collodi being able to use his trigger since after damaging there was no model left for him to use.

[dgraz]

Straight up no Collodi cannot make a model that was killed do something with his trigger. Immediately means remove the model as soon as it is reduced to 0 wounds or fewer.  The only time you drop a corpse marker is if either player has a model that can interact with them. If there are no models to interact with the marker, the marker is not dropped and the model is removed from play without Collodi being able to use his trigger since after damaging there was no model left for him to use.

Straight up?

 

Except that the Trigger rules specifically state that they take effect before the model is removed from the table.........straight up.

[Ausplosions]

Straight up?

Except that the Trigger rules specifically state that they take effect before the model is removed from the table.........straight up.

Straight up!

[Aramoro]

Straight up no Collodi cannot make a model that was killed do something with his trigger. Immediately means remove the model as soon as it is reduced to 0 wounds or fewer.  The only time you drop a corpse marker is if either player has a model that can interact with them. If there are no models to interact with the marker, the marker is not dropped and the model is removed from play without Collodi being able to use his trigger since after damaging there was no model left for him to use.

 

Whoops looks like someone straight up didn't read the quotes in the thread from the rulebook.

 

It's one of those really edge case situations but has an impact on some games, like when Collodi kills a model with Finish the Job, Or the Widow Weaver for that matter. 

[The Godlyness]

Now let's use the honor system here how many times have you actually flipped cards after declaring a trigger of after damaging. When the model died from the attack.