Pandora's Self Harm vs Seamus's 0.50 Flintlock

[Coweringomega]

I couldn't find where this was addressed previously, so I'm sorry if it was asked before.

Who's rule supersedes between Self Harm and the 0.50 Flintlock?

The flintlock rule says this action can only be used once per turn, however, Self Harm says that no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied.

Ultimately, if Pandora targets Seamus with Self Harm and succeeds forcing him to hit himself with the 0.50 Flintlock, can she do it again?

So if yes, then she can do it 3 times which is insanely powerful.

If not, and Seamus's rule prevails over Pandora's then if she activates before Seamus and makes him shoot the gun, since it says only once per turn, that should mean that the gun has fired and Seamus is unable to fire the gun this turn. Or if Seamus already shot, she would be unable to target him with Self Harm, I suppose.

So who's rule prevails here?

I'd lean towards it can only be shot once, because that makes the most sense (reloading and the power of the shot), but since Sam can shoot at burning dudes through walls, so I don't try to apply too much logic into these situations.

Thanks

[Omenbringer]

However, from what I can tell, as the card reads, she isn't actually taking the action. She is simply selecting the action, then applying the damage track from the action. The action itself is never used. Thus, she can use it 3 times.

If the action was never considered to have been taken and only its damage track is used then there wouldn't be a need to include the verbiage in Self Harm/Loathing stating "effects and Triggers from the chosen action" are not applied (as those are only applied as a result of a duel performed with that specific action, again page 29 of the big book).

I will however bow out of this prior to the inevitable personal attacks that constantly surround these types of discussions and since neither side is likely to change the others opinion.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Omenbringer

[Omenbringer]

However, from what I can tell, as the card reads, she isn't actually taking the action. She is simply selecting the action, then applying the damage track from the action. The action itself is never used. Thus, she can use it 3 times.

If the action was never considered to have been taken and only its damage track is used then there wouldn't be a need to include the verbiage in Self Harm/Loathing stating "effects and Triggers from the chosen action" are not applied (as those are only applied as a result of a duel performed with that specific action, again page 29 of the big book).

I will however bow out of this prior to the inevitable personal attacks that constantly surround these types of discussions and since neither side is likely to change the others opinion.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Omenbringer

[Sharp_GT]

Nowhere in self loathing is the Chosen Action actually utilized. It says specifically in the action that you are to "...Apply the damage results of the chosen action to the target..." you are never actually declaring, taking, or using that action, you are simply instructed to apply the Dg code, Copy=>Paste

This is similar to a tactical action instructing you to choose a model within x". it does not target so will not cause horror or manipulative duels. Choosing may be functionally similar to other game-actions, but is not interchangeable.

[Sharp_GT]

Nowhere in self loathing is the Chosen Action actually utilized. It says specifically in the action that you are to "...Apply the damage results of the chosen action to the target..." you are never actually declaring, taking, or using that action, you are simply instructed to apply the Dg code, Copy=>Paste

This is similar to a tactical action instructing you to choose a model within x". it does not target so will not cause horror or manipulative duels. Choosing may be functionally similar to other game-actions, but is not interchangeable.

[Coweringomega]

Yikes! I'm sorry if it feels like a personal attack Omen. That's not the intent as far as I can tell.

I am guessing the verbiage about the effects and triggers was actually an attempt to keep it clear that Self Harm was only using the damage track and nothing else. It wasn't using the effects and triggers, or anything else associated with the action.

[Coweringomega]

Yikes! I'm sorry if it feels like a personal attack Omen. That's not the intent as far as I can tell.

I am guessing the verbiage about the effects and triggers was actually an attempt to keep it clear that Self Harm was only using the damage track and nothing else. It wasn't using the effects and triggers, or anything else associated with the action.

[Ausplosions]

If the action was never considered to have been taken and only its damage track is used then there wouldn't be a need to include the verbiage in Self Harm/Loathing stating "effects and Triggers from the chosen action" are not applied (as those are only applied as a result of a duel performed with that specific action, again page 29 of the big book).

I will however bow out of this prior to the inevitable personal attacks that constantly surround these types of discussions and since neither side is likely to change the others opinion.

Triggers result from duels, yes.

But effects do not necessarily need a duel. If Pandora had chosen an Attack that does 1/2/4 and poison +4,only the damage would apply, as poison is an extra effect.

And nowhere is the chosen action actually utilised.

---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------

Yikes! I'm sorry if it feels like a personal attack Omen. That's not the intent as far as I can tell..

I think He means me. Because apparently I can't disagree without people taking it personally

[Ausplosions]

If the action was never considered to have been taken and only its damage track is used then there wouldn't be a need to include the verbiage in Self Harm/Loathing stating "effects and Triggers from the chosen action" are not applied (as those are only applied as a result of a duel performed with that specific action, again page 29 of the big book).

I will however bow out of this prior to the inevitable personal attacks that constantly surround these types of discussions and since neither side is likely to change the others opinion.

Triggers result from duels, yes.

But effects do not necessarily need a duel. If Pandora had chosen an Attack that does 1/2/4 and poison +4,only the damage would apply, as poison is an extra effect.

And nowhere is the chosen action actually utilised.

---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------

Yikes! I'm sorry if it feels like a personal attack Omen. That's not the intent as far as I can tell..

I think He means me. Because apparently I can't disagree without people taking it personally

[Sharp_GT]

Hahaha, no it's not just you, that's just how the internet works. We geeks open up our laptops and take to our various forums to argue with each other about the things we love; ah tis the life! As much as it may often sound like we disagree and take offense, I know that we're all on the 'same side' and our discourse only (usually) helps to enrich our game and the community surrounding it!

[Sharp_GT]

Hahaha, no it's not just you, that's just how the internet works. We geeks open up our laptops and take to our various forums to argue with each other about the things we love; ah tis the life! As much as it may often sound like we disagree and take offense, I know that we're all on the 'same side' and our discourse only (usually) helps to enrich our game and the community surrounding it!

[The Godlyness]

If I self loathed a peacekeeper with his chain spear he would take 2/3/4 and that's it he would not gain slow. If I took rasputinas Freeze over it would do diddly squat. If is use seamus's pistol he is eating it as many times as I can make him pull the trigger. Also have to factor in impossible to would so you can never cheat but it does do a minimum of 5 (if within 6") so that's a plus.

[The Godlyness]

If I self loathed a peacekeeper with his chain spear he would take 2/3/4 and that's it he would not gain slow. If I took rasputinas Freeze over it would do diddly squat. If is use seamus's pistol he is eating it as many times as I can make him pull the trigger. Also have to factor in impossible to would so you can never cheat but it does do a minimum of 5 (if within 6") so that's a plus.

[Coweringomega]

Well, How about McMourning then? If you force him to melee himself, does he get to heal if he actually hurts himself? It's not part of his action at all, it's his ability.

Sorry for the silly questions, I'm new to Pandora.

[Coweringomega]

Well, How about McMourning then? If you force him to melee himself, does he get to heal if he actually hurts himself? It's not part of his action at all, it's his ability.

Sorry for the silly questions, I'm new to Pandora.

[Fenton Crack]

If the RAW or RAI is that Pandora can use the .50 cal multiple times (and I won't hash semantics whether it is or is not) I think an errata is in order.

Whether the .50 cal is once per turn for fluff, for balance, or for both, I don't think Pandora should be able use it multiple times in a turn when Seamus cannot. If Seamus cannot load his gun fast enough fluff-wise, I hardly see how Pandora should be able to compel him to move his hands faster than he can. Likewise, if it's OP for Seamus to unload that thing multiple times in a turn, it seems unfair that he is not afforded the same balance.

If there is an errata or FAQ on the matter and it is decided or clarified that Pandora indeed cannot use the .50 more than once per turn, it likely needs further clarification on whether if Pandora fails, did she fail the "Jedi mind trick" and Seamus was not compelled to shoot (and thus she can try again), or did he fire and miss himself (and thus not it cannot I be used again)? I suspect it would be the latter, as Seamus cannot fail and try again. However, if that is he case and Pandora tried to get Seamus to shoot himself, but failed, is Seamus from precluded from using the flintlock later in the same turn since action has already been used? Fluff would say Seamus cannot use it since the gun has been fired.......

[Fenton Crack]

If the RAW or RAI is that Pandora can use the .50 cal multiple times (and I won't hash semantics whether it is or is not) I think an errata is in order.

Whether the .50 cal is once per turn for fluff, for balance, or for both, I don't think Pandora should be able use it multiple times in a turn when Seamus cannot. If Seamus cannot load his gun fast enough fluff-wise, I hardly see how Pandora should be able to compel him to move his hands faster than he can. Likewise, if it's OP for Seamus to unload that thing multiple times in a turn, it seems unfair that he is not afforded the same balance.

If there is an errata or FAQ on the matter and it is decided or clarified that Pandora indeed cannot use the .50 more than once per turn, it likely needs further clarification on whether if Pandora fails, did she fail the "Jedi mind trick" and Seamus was not compelled to shoot (and thus she can try again), or did he fire and miss himself (and thus not it cannot I be used again)? I suspect it would be the latter, as Seamus cannot fail and try again. However, if that is he case and Pandora tried to get Seamus to shoot himself, but failed, is Seamus from precluded from using the flintlock later in the same turn since action has already been used? Fluff would say Seamus cannot use it since the gun has been fired.......

[Fetid Strumpet]

As I previously stated, I don't believe it actually fires the gun, and Pandora can do it as many times as she can successfully cast it. But just a thought for reflection, if it did work that She could only do it once, it would still mess about with Seamus, because the gun can only be fired once a turn. If it did work that the action fired the gun, and Pandora accomplished this before Seamus activated, then not only would Pandora not be able to fire it again, Neither would Seamus when it becomes his turn to activate.

[Fetid Strumpet]

As I previously stated, I don't believe it actually fires the gun, and Pandora can do it as many times as she can successfully cast it. But just a thought for reflection, if it did work that She could only do it once, it would still mess about with Seamus, because the gun can only be fired once a turn. If it did work that the action fired the gun, and Pandora accomplished this before Seamus activated, then not only would Pandora not be able to fire it again, Neither would Seamus when it becomes his turn to activate.

[zFiend]

IWhether the .50 cal is once per turn for fluff, for balance, or for both, I don't think Pandora should be able use it multiple times in a turn when Seamus cannot. If Seamus cannot load his gun fast enough fluff-wise, I hardly see how Pandora should be able to compel him to move his hands faster than he can. Likewise, if it's OP for Seamus to unload that thing multiple times in a turn, it seems unfair that he is not afforded the same balance.

I hope that this would be the case. I think that as Pandora is written she actually just takes the damage track and applies it as often as she can/wants. Which is a bit too much on Poor ol' Seamus.

[zFiend]

IWhether the .50 cal is once per turn for fluff, for balance, or for both, I don't think Pandora should be able use it multiple times in a turn when Seamus cannot. If Seamus cannot load his gun fast enough fluff-wise, I hardly see how Pandora should be able to compel him to move his hands faster than he can. Likewise, if it's OP for Seamus to unload that thing multiple times in a turn, it seems unfair that he is not afforded the same balance.

I hope that this would be the case. I think that as Pandora is written she actually just takes the damage track and applies it as often as she can/wants. Which is a bit too much on Poor ol' Seamus.

[Csonti]

I don't think that would be too much. Pandy first needs to take a Horror Duel then overcome Seamus Wp7 with Ca6 using a Attack which means cover would make this assault VERY costly. And if it is all good there is still prevention, Hard to Kill and the Hat for "Poor ol' Seamus" - and then he can utilize his awesome healing potential...

Anyway the wording is perfectly clear for me: Pandy doesn't actually use the gun's Action just the damage track so she can TRY to use that as many times as she can. In return this won't deny Seamus to use the gun himself.

[Csonti]

I don't think that would be too much. Pandy first needs to take a Horror Duel then overcome Seamus Wp7 with Ca6 using a Attack which means cover would make this assault VERY costly. And if it is all good there is still prevention, Hard to Kill and the Hat for "Poor ol' Seamus" - and then he can utilize his awesome healing potential...

Anyway the wording is perfectly clear for me: Pandy doesn't actually use the gun's Action just the damage track so she can TRY to use that as many times as she can. In return this won't deny Seamus to use the gun himself.

[Morgan Vening]

I don't think that would be too much. Pandy first needs to take a Horror Duel then overcome Seamus Wp7 with Ca6 using a Attack which means cover would make this assault VERY costly. And if it is all good there is still prevention, Hard to Kill and the Hat for "Poor ol' Seamus" - and then he can utilize his awesome healing potential...

Anyway the wording is perfectly clear for me: Pandy doesn't actually use the gun's Action just the damage track so she can TRY to use that as many times as she can. In return this won't deny Seamus to use the gun himself.

I agree that the wording is clear. As for the justification, it's possible that the attack is a psychic self-manifestation of the attack caused by their imagination, rather than actually attacking themselves with the weapon.

Why doesn't Joss's Arc Axe ignore his own Armour, but a Lone Marshall's self shot to the head ignores Bulletproof? Why does an Incorporeal model suffer full damage from it's own 'attack' (Self's being Ca actions) when it inflicts half-damage against other Incorporeals? Other models seem like they're incapable of hurting themselves with their own weapons (due to being too long, or attached in a weird way). And why can't Papa Loco blow himself up, or current incarnation Abuela give herself both barrels? Seems like it'd be easy for Pandora to do.

Pandora's abilities are written in a way that MAY offer one explanation of how it does what it does, but that doesn't preclude it functioning in another. Seamus only THINKS he shot himself. And the illusion and doubt manifests itself as reality.

[Morgan Vening]

I don't think that would be too much. Pandy first needs to take a Horror Duel then overcome Seamus Wp7 with Ca6 using a Attack which means cover would make this assault VERY costly. And if it is all good there is still prevention, Hard to Kill and the Hat for "Poor ol' Seamus" - and then he can utilize his awesome healing potential...

Anyway the wording is perfectly clear for me: Pandy doesn't actually use the gun's Action just the damage track so she can TRY to use that as many times as she can. In return this won't deny Seamus to use the gun himself.

I agree that the wording is clear. As for the justification, it's possible that the attack is a psychic self-manifestation of the attack caused by their imagination, rather than actually attacking themselves with the weapon.

Why doesn't Joss's Arc Axe ignore his own Armour, but a Lone Marshall's self shot to the head ignores Bulletproof? Why does an Incorporeal model suffer full damage from it's own 'attack' (Self's being Ca actions) when it inflicts half-damage against other Incorporeals? Other models seem like they're incapable of hurting themselves with their own weapons (due to being too long, or attached in a weird way). And why can't Papa Loco blow himself up, or current incarnation Abuela give herself both barrels? Seems like it'd be easy for Pandora to do.

Pandora's abilities are written in a way that MAY offer one explanation of how it does what it does, but that doesn't preclude it functioning in another. Seamus only THINKS he shot himself. And the illusion and doubt manifests itself as reality.

[Fenton Crack]

I don't think that would be too much. Pandy first needs to take a Horror Duel then overcome Seamus Wp7 with Ca6 using a Attack which means cover would make this assault VERY costly. And if it is all good there is still prevention, Hard to Kill and the Hat for "Poor ol' Seamus" - and then he can utilize his awesome healing potential...

Anyway the wording is perfectly clear for me: Pandy doesn't actually use the gun's Action just the damage track so she can TRY to use that as many times as she can. In return this won't deny Seamus to use the gun himself.

Well, the fact that Justin clicked a "thank you" for this post may very we'll be indicative that Pandora's Self Harm was meant to operate as simply a damage track borrow, and it was felt multi-use flintlock was fine (or perhaps equating a thank you as an endorsement is reading too far in, but I'm not sure he'd click it for a point he disagreed with just because he liked the Csonti laid out the argument.)

I agree that Seamus is not necessarily dead in the water simply if Pandora can have multi-use flintlock, but it still seems a bit heavy handed to me. Sure she has to make the horror duel, but if anyone is going to pass a horror duel, it's Pandora with her Wp 7, and in the case of Self Harm, I would argue it actually helps her, as if Seamus is in cover her immediate push from Fading Memory may give her an open line with clear LOS before she "shoots". With each success of Self Harm she may have one less good card in hand, but each success also gives her a push that increases the chances that Seamus will not still be in cover on the subsequent shot, and Seamus is presumably losing good cards in the duel at a similar rate.

There could be, of course, a situation where Fading Memory is a liability, with a tight firing lane, where a push would have her LOS obscured making cover where there was none or would put Pandora in engagement (since Fading Memories says "immediately push" and has no "may" language in it like other abilities that would indicate the push is optional) but the push is "up to", so moving a tick more than 0" should not really cause her any ill effects in all but the most outlying corner cases imagine.

It would seem the strategy for Pandora would often be focus the first attack, to mitigate potential cover and/or impossible to wound, then follow up with a second shot, staying outside 6" to ensure you don't heal him through Feast of Fear on a miss. Might be tempting try and get him down to one wound from full by shooting three times though.

At the end of the day I don't play Seamus, and don't really have a dog in the fight (except in full disclosure I was the other at the game with Slapdrone and Omenbringer and was advocating the "one shot, period" interpretation, so it can be argued my ego may be tugging me in a direction to "be right"), but think fluff wise, one shot made sense, and it seemed the most fair. Morgan has indicated perhaps it's a psychosomatic reaction, which would be as good of an explanation as any I guess if the rule goes that way. The fact that there has been confusion I think would still warrant an inclusion in a future FAQ. Even if it is felt that as written it's one way or another, does not mean it will not be a frequently asked question and still potentially cause confusion.