Public question to Eric J.

[Duck21]

Eric I hate to bother you before Gen Con I know you’re really busy, but I really need to know this. What is your opinion of people who intend to stay with Malifaux 1.5

[TroyPerez]

Go here for your answer! http://malifauxclassic.com/?p=73

Pretty much they are saying you can continue to play 1.5 if you want, but we won't be supporting you in anyway, and if you try to alter or rewrite our rules, stats, or anything else we created we may be forced to take legal action. In summary you have three choices, play old 1.5, play 2.0, or get sued! lol

[zFiend]

Hm.. What is so bad about M2E that people are going through all this? Is 1.5 that much better? I am really asking, not trying anything else. I am a new player, only play'd with beta rules, never with 1.5 but everyone in my gaming group actually preferred the beta rules vs 1.5

[Zac]

Go here for your answer! http://malifauxclassic.com/?p=73

Pretty much they are saying you can continue to play 1.5 if you want, but we won't be supporting you in anyway, and if you try to alter or rewrite our rules, stats, or anything else we created we may be forced to take legal action. In summary you have three choices, play old 1.5, play 2.0, or get sued! lol

Just to be clear, this is not necessarily something they will want to do. According to copyright law, it is your responsibility to protect your own IP, and if someone were to post the 1.5 ruleset without Wyrd doing something to stop them, then pretty much all of their patents and IP would be anyone's. Eric doesn't want to sue anyone, but would have to in order to protect his entire company, or they would lose everything. That is the danger Malifaux Classic is to Malifaux 2.0: If it's posted online for free and Wyrd does nothing about it, then the company loses all of its IP.

[Helm]

Go here for your answer! http://malifauxclassic.com/?p=73

Pretty much they are saying you can continue to play 1.5 if you want, but we won't be supporting you in anyway, and if you try to alter or rewrite our rules, stats, or anything else we created we may be forced to take legal action. In summary you have three choices, play old 1.5, play 2.0, or get sued! lol

Think you'll find that's "alter and then reproduce and publicly distribute".

Just like PullMyFinger wasn't allowed to publish full stats for every model, Malifaux Classic surely wouldn't be allowed to publish 1.5 stats for every model alongside errata changes.

What Wyrd is being asked for is to put their stamp of approval on a ruleset that they themselves won't be developing, that will give out for free published material that Wyrd has put a price on and that will potentially divide the playerbase of new customers to the game.

If people want to modify 1.5 and play it in their gaming groups, it's fine; that's what's been done throughout 1.5's history. If people want to release the 1.5 rules and stats publicly online then Wyrd is perfectly entitled not to give the project the thumbs-up.

[Rathnard]

Go here for your answer! http://malifauxclassic.com/?p=73

Pretty much they are saying you can continue to play 1.5 if you want, but we won't be supporting you in anyway, and if you try to alter or rewrite our rules, stats, or anything else we created we may be forced to take legal action. In summary you have three choices, play old 1.5, play 2.0, or get sued! lol

That's not what I got from that link at all.

Basically, it seems that Bill wants to make an edited version of the 1.5 rules and stat cards available for free, which is a breach of IP. It's possible that this could still occur if Wyrd agrees to license out the 1.5 rules to Bill (or whoever) but at this stage they don't want to leap into making such a decision without first having the time and space to do it properly, rather than via email correspondance in the middle of the busiest time of the year for Wyrd.

So it still might happen and Wyrd might have some kind of plan to that effect anyway, but not until after Gencon. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

zFiend - try as I might (and honestly, I've tried), I can't really understand why some people are so against M2E. That's not to say they're wrong (personal preference and all), but I will say that I'm pretty disappointed with the stereotyping by people "for" or "against" M2E of those who disagree with them (eg. "you're all drinking the Wyrd Koolaid" or "keep your misguided anti-M2E opinions to yourself").

And that's all I have to say on the matter.

[mythicFOX]

Shameless plug for a blog post about this on my blog; blog.mythicfox.com

[Ausplosions]

Ugh.

Every time I read or hear something extra from Bill he proves himself to be increasingly petty in his actions and responses.

Boo hoo Bill.

A company doesn't want you using their hard work for a project in direct competition with theirs.

It's not evil. It's normal.

Jesus.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Ausplosions

[ttsgosadow]

Shameless plug for a blog post about this on my blog; blog.mythicfox.com

Subscribed

[Dracomax]

Just to be clear, this is not necessarily something they will want to do. According to copyright law, it is your responsibility to protect your own IP, and if someone were to post the 1.5 ruleset without Wyrd doing something to stop them, then pretty much all of their patents and IP would be anyone's. Eric doesn't want to sue anyone, but would have to in order to protect his entire company, or they would lose everything. That is the danger Malifaux Classic is to Malifaux 2.0: If it's posted online for free and Wyrd does nothing about it, then the company loses all of its IP.

Actually, that isn't true. It's necessary to protect your trademarks. Copyright can be not be weakened in that fashion(this is why fanfics are often allowed to continue to exist). In addition, (I am given to understand that) a game system can not be copyrighted; only the specific language of the system. Presumably stats for characters/monsters can be copyrighted, but that I do not know. hence Wyrd saying they were trying to patent the rule system. Of course, as we all know, Patents are notoriously easy to get around--change 1 or 2 things, and then submit your patent, and it's a new item!

The US IP laws are are F@$&*****ed up.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Dracomax
clarification and general spelling

[Wise Guy Sam]

Hm.. What is so bad about M2E that people are going through all this? Is 1.5 that much better? I am really asking, not trying anything else. I am a new player, only play'd with beta rules, never with 1.5 but everyone in my gaming group actually preferred the beta rules vs 1.5

The Internet is a tough crowd.

All people like different things but a lot of games seem afraid of change.

[Duck21]

Actually, that isn't true. It's necessary to protect your trademarks. Copyright can be not be weakened in that fashion(this is why fanfics are often allowed to continue to exist). In addition, (I am given to understand that) a game system can not be copyrighted; only the specific language of the system. Presumably stats for characters/monsters can be copyrighted, but that I do not know. hence Wyrd saying they were trying to patent the rule system. Of course, as we all know, Patents are notoriously easy to get around--change 1 or 2 things, and then submit your patent, and it's a new item!

The US IP laws are are F@$&*****ed up.

There were a lot of grey area in copyright law before Games Workshop VS Chapter house case. Now there clear guidelines to produce parts compatible with Games Workshop miniatures, and sell them.

[PierceSternum]

A company doesn't want you using their hard work for a project in direct competition with theirs.

Is that effort competition?

They seem to be encouraging people to purchase Wyrd products. Is money from a M1E player less valuable than an M2E players?

If I ever decided that M2E was not something I want to play anymore, I think it would be very cool to have the "fixed" version of M1E that I sort of wanted M2E to be.

In reading the email chain, though, I sort of got the same vibe as Rathnard. The conclusion reached seems not necessarily in alignment with what Eric was saying.

He said there would be something about their IP posted in a couple weeks. I am interested in seeing what that is and if it turns out to be something workable and Nix has a change of heart, I think that the people feeling disenfranchised at the moment would remain customers.

As it is, I think people are leaving. I expect that M2E will find a new generation of gamers. But something like that effort keeping older players involved feels like having your cake and eating it too.

[Duck21]

Is that effort competition?

They seem to be encouraging people to purchase Wyrd products. Is money from a M1E player less valuable than an M2E players?

If I ever decided that M2E was not something I want to play anymore, I think it would be very cool to have the "fixed" version of M1E that I sort of wanted M2E to be.

In reading the email chain, though, I sort of got the same vibe as Rathnard. The conclusion reached seems not necessarily in alignment with what Eric was saying.

He said there would be something about their IP posted in a couple weeks. I am interested in seeing what that is and if it turns out to be something workable and Nix has a change of heart, I think that the people feeling disenfranchised at the moment would remain customers.

As it is, I think people are leaving. I expect that M2E will find a new generation of gamers. But something like that effort keeping older players involved feels like having your cake and eating it too.

It could be a pride thing.

[PierceSternum]

Shameless plug for a blog post about this on my blog; blog.mythicfox.com

All I sort of got from your post was "You don't think it will work".

Isn't that sort of like simply betting on the favorite?

[hypoking]

What I don't get is how is this, MC, M1f, whatever you want to call it, different than any other homebrew? Other than that some people actually seem interested in the topic I don't see much of a distinction between this project and the old threads on rebuilding Nekima or Molly. We're talking about the wargaming equivalent of fan fiction here, as the long as the necessary steps are taken and the relevant disclaimers are put out in the open what's the big deal?

[zFiend]

What's the thing with Blood Bowl and the living rulebook? Isn't that fanmade to update the game or am I mistaken?

[mythicFOX]

All I sort of got from your post was "You don't think it will work".

Isn't that sort of like simply betting on the favorite?

That may be a fair TLDR *grin*

I certainly wouldn't bet against the organised and well established company that own the IP for a product having more success than a loose coalition of people with differing agendas trying to develop another version of the product in parallel.

I'd also stress that just because a group of people agree that they don't want M2e, doesn't mean for a second that they will agree on what they do want instead.

Another TLDR of my blog post is; ultimately when 1.5 is played a year from now it will be the occasional game between friends. There wont be a large global community of 1.5 players.

All IMHO, and again I respect those who don't like M2e and their right to continue to play 1.5.

PS: Another cheeky plug for my blogpost! Link in my sig. *wink*

Edited July 26, 2013 by mythicFOX

[Dracomax]

The only ways I see that an M1E conversion posting full stats would be competition is if Wyrd (1) plan on releasing their own M1E updates(unlikely, but who knows) or (2) beleive that there is a significant portion of the available customers who would rather play M1E, but will play M2E if such a fan-work does not exist.

I suspect that fear of losing money is not the issue here. It might be, as people can be irrational at times, and they might have things in the works that we don't see that make it important, but based on what we know now, it isn't likely. Branding might be. Ensuring nothing is put out with the Malifaux name that doesn't fit their quality standards is another possibility.

For me, Wyrd haven't lost my trust, but they are bleeding a lot of it away. What they do over the next year, especially in regard to M1E, will likely sway me. They have earned the benefit of the doubt for at least that long.

I like M2E, and will play it, but I like M1E, and want to play it in a more balanced form as well. Buying into one will not make me stop playing the other; being told i am wrong, or feeling like the company wants to stop me from playing one might.

[nilus]

A company doesn't want you using their hard work for a project in direct competition with theirs.

Is it? I know what Bill is trying to do here and although I know there has been some bad blood this is less about hate for M2E and more about love for Classic.

In my personal opinion a fan supported free version of 1.5, with a limited license from Wyrd would not hurt Wyrds bottom line. Its not going to grow, like Pathfinder did. It going to just keep the die hard 1.5 fans happy. But what it may do, is get 1.5 die hards to buy exclusive M2E models (Like the Iron Zombies, Brewmaster or the Tara box set), if there we a fan driven 1.5 card for them.

An interesting point to this is I just recently asked on Twitter(and emailed the participants at Adepticon 2013) if any Malifaux players would be interested in playing in a Malifaux Classic event at Adepticon 2014. I got over 50 responses and nearly half of them want a Classic event. The plan, of course, is still to run mostly M2E events. But the poll tells me that a Classic event would still be popular(at least next year).

Anyways judging by Eric's letters on Classic site I don't know if all the doom and gloom is needed yet. Sounds like maybe a post Gencon announcement may be coming.

[Creaturefeature]

Is it? I know what Bill is trying to do here and although I know there has been some bad blood this is less about hate for M2E and more about love for Classic.

In my personal opinion a fan supported free version of 1.5, with a limited license from Wyrd would not hurt Wyrds bottom line. Its not going to grow, like Pathfinder did. It going to just keep the die hard 1.5 fans happy. But what it may do, is get 1.5 die hards to buy exclusive M2E models (Like the Iron Zombies, Brewmaster or the Tara box set), if there we a fan driven 1.5 card for them.

An interesting point to this is I just recently asked on Twitter(and emailed the participants at Adepticon 2013) if any Malifaux players would be interested in playing in a Malifaux Classic event at Adepticon 2014. I got over 50 responses and nearly half of them want a Classic event. The plan, of course, is still to run mostly M2E events. But the poll tells me that a Classic event would still be popular(at least next year).

Anyways judging by Eric's letters on Classic site I don't know if all the doom and gloom is needed yet. Sounds like maybe a post Gencon announcement may be coming.

To be fair, M2E hasn't come out yet and very few people have played its final version. We really wont get to play with all of the current models in their final rules until January ish. I would suspect that the results of the poll may change greatly (one way or another) once the game actually is released and is played.

[Matney X]

I really don't understand why players assume that Wyrd will, at all, continue to support M1E. TSR didn't support 1st Ed. AD&D when they moved to 2nd; Wizards didn't continue to support 3.5 when they moved to 4th (well, they didn't until the players marched en masse to Pathfinder); GW only supports 5th Ed. as far as releasing FAQs to update older Codexes to new rules...

And with every update, there was a vocal minority saying, "I'll never stop playing this edition! Support us, company-that-makes-the-game, because we give you our money!"

And, it never happens. Some of them continue holding onto the previous editions, some of them leave the game entirely, but most of them begrudgingly take the step into the newest edition (probably because everyone loves new shiny models, the smell of new books, and actually being able to find people to play with.)

TL;RD - Whether or not you're going to move into M2E or not, Wyrd has decided that M2E is where Malifaux is going, and they're most likely not going to look back. Get over it and accept that you're either leaving, playing M2E, or playing M1E without Wyrd support.

In my personal opinion a fan supported free version of 1.5, with a limited license from Wyrd would not hurt Wyrds bottom line. Its not going to grow, like Pathfinder did. It going to just keep the die hard 1.5 fans happy. But what it may do, is get 1.5 die hards to buy exclusive M2E models (Like the Iron Zombies, Brewmaster or the Tara box set), if there we a fan driven 1.5 card for them.

I would support that, but you know it would spring off to create Classic-Only models, as people figured out the math behind SS costs.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Matney X

[Dracomax]

I really don't understand why players assume that Wyrd will, at all, continue to support M1E. TSR didn't support 1st Ed. AD&D when they moved to 2nd; Wizards didn't continue to support 3.5 when they moved to 4th (well, they didn't until the players marched en masse to Pathfinder); GW only supports 5th Ed. as far as releasing FAQs to update older Codexes to new rules...

I don't think anyone is expecting them to support M1E. what we want is for them to, if they don't support M1E, get out of the way so that we can. I think it would be a good idea to keep it in the Malifaux forums under a M1E subforum, if for no other reason than that they can keep it under their tentative control, but either way, I suspect that those who want to update and continue playing M1E will find a way to band together and continue. It'll just go underground and become harder to track, and Wyrd will lose customers who would have bought plastic models that were available to m1E.

[HalcyonSeraph]

What's the thing with Blood Bowl and the living rulebook? Isn't that fanmade to update the game or am I mistaken?

It is a fanmade update to a game that GW had effectively abandoned, and so was done with their blessing. Blood Bowl was dead and fans revived it. That's not the same thing as fans forking the development of a game and making a game that basically does compete with the current version of the game.

[Cornelious1424]

Whether or not you're going to move into M2E or not, Wyrd has decided that M2E is where Malifaux is going, and they're most likely not going to look back. Get over it and accept that you're either leaving, playing M2E, or playing M1E without Wyrd support.

Couldn't agree more. I really don't understand why people think Wyrd would/should take steps to support what is obviously an obslolete eddition in their eyes. Either get used to the new eddtion, play the old one in a private with your own changes, or just dont play at all. No reason to make a fuss. There will always be new games and old games you no longer play, its the nature of the beast. It sucks if you can't get on board with the new changes.