Math Mathonwy Posted May 4, 2013 Report Share Posted May 4, 2013 I don't see why not. It depends entirely on why you proxy. If its just to avoid spending any sort of money then Wyrd is unlikely to see much anyway, but the reason I have proxy monies is because I don't love all the Wyrd models so I use a different model I like better. So yes, I use various proxy models and I'll be buying the decks for everything I play. So I'm looking at Arcanists, Neverborn and Outcasts. If we use the price of a War machine deck (I got no idea if it will be the same) that would cost me RRP £36 to get all the rules for every miniature I play with and professionally made play aids that makes playing much easier. Sure, its 'hobby money' that doesn't buy you any miniatures but is it money less well spent because of that? But if you used that money to buy Wyrd minis, you would help Wyrd more. Because no matter what, their marginals for the decks won't be as high as they are for the minis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniddy Posted May 4, 2013 Report Share Posted May 4, 2013 I'll want the PDFs as a Marcus player I have bits and pieces, for example I have 4 NB mods - I don't want a faction deck for 4 cards I own most of oucast and archnist mods, I want a faction deck and to not have to use print outs...I want both please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted May 4, 2013 Report Share Posted May 4, 2013 (edited) I can't see the faction decks being released until Jan 2014 - how can they when only book 1 will have been finalised? books 2-4 go into public beta in september (according to the podcasts interviews), so you can have you hands on some rules for the rest of your collection - but not the finished ones. when the public beta of books 2-4 is over, then making faction decks makes sense. can't see a logical alternative myself. edit: after reading a good chunk of this thread, I find myself perplexed by the attitude of some people who have spent money on a tablet/smartphone that can show them the PDFs, but begrudge spending a pittance on faction decks. first world problems ain't even close!! personally I'd love to have PDF copies of my cards - but I wouldn't expect them for free, and I'd buy the physical cards as well. In game passing a card to an opponent to read, and marking wounds off with a pen is simply easier - and flipping PDFs between different models, and the upgrade cards - don't forget them - on a tablet would just be more of a pain that it was worth. I'd want the PDFs for reference and as a learning tool - it'd pass the time on a journey and all that browsing (with the combos I'd spot) would mean I'd spend more money with wyrd. Edited May 4, 2013 by Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorbad Posted May 4, 2013 Report Share Posted May 4, 2013 If you had an App or similar for them rather than a PDF you could create a 'card' that contained all the upgrades you have bought for the model. That kind of thing could be quite neat I think. But then we are talking additional resources spent on developing digital offering as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreepingDeath Posted May 4, 2013 Report Share Posted May 4, 2013 I understand why you asked, wasn't intended as an attack on you. From what I've read these are going to be sold in packs as a product and therefore I would expect them to land on shelves in the UK as with any normal Wyrd product. Stocking faction decks makes sense for a retailer as most existing Malifaux players are going to want at least one new deck ASAP when 2E lands. That rush of sales and incidental purchases that come with them will make faction decks good sense for retailers. If we have any problem getting them I expect it to be them selling out quickly. I cannot imagine any UK retailer wanting to stock individual stat cards, now or in the future. It's very fiddly for little to no return. Which is I suspect the reason you can't buy individual cards from anyone other than Wyrd right now, it's just doesn't make economic sense to the retailers. All IMO. I understand it was not an attack. My way of replying can be some what defensive. That is what I have taken away also that they will be available in packs. I just want to make sure that the packs will be available within the UK for sure so that if I buy more now that when I do update I can just pick up a faction deck and thats me sorted. No doubt they will be selling out left, right and centre. I agree with the individual cards and what you are saying. Its just not easy or cost effective for some folk like myself who have kids, house etc to be getting them as they are currently which is why it would be nice to know for sure if the faction packs will be out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 I'm happy to pay for faction decks, but playing both zoraida and Leveticus as well as Colette will make it expensive to blanket buy the decks, as I will need lots. Bow while this sucks, I am casting my mind back to when the 1.5 changes hit and the FREE cards wyrd gave me, which, to me, was unprecedented. As long as it doesn't cost me more than £5 a deck and £25-£30 for the rule book, so £60 total, that means I am still getting ALL the rules I need to play the game for a ridiculously cheap price compared to GW, which would cost me £65 just for MY codex and the rulebook.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorbad Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 I have to say my imagination doesn't stretch to card decks not being available in the UK, or anywhere else that sells Wyrd products. Those retailers already stock Fate Decks, as well as a range of varied sized blisters and boxes. How is this product any different from what they are already selling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 Im just looking forward to being able to proxy stuff without having to have the big arse book open to the right page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagan Wolfe Posted May 5, 2013 Report Share Posted May 5, 2013 Well... I am all for a PDF. This is my Height 3 stack of cards across all factions. PDFs would help because, like most people, I would want to pick up a faction deck here and there while still being able to play all of my crews. And this is far from the largest I have seen! Otherwise it will just have to be 5 x $$ (or is it 6x with Ten Thunders?) in one big hit + BOOK. I can do that (and probably WILL as I can then lend cards to players during games who have not yet got their updates), but PDFs would certainly help the player base. Oh well, either way, I am looking forward to all of this! While many of the local players have said they are going to play around with the rules when they first hit until everything settles down V1.5 Malifaux will keep going strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caen Posted July 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 Maybe it is a good time to resurect thi thread again. Now we know the format of cards used durig BETA, we know that there will be two Arsenal Boxes for each fraction. Do You expect WYRD will release free pdf with cards for models used in first BETA? What price do You expect for Arsenal Boxes (and if the price will be the same for Wave I and Wave II Arsenal Boxes)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arli Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) What will be in an Arsenal box? (Did I miss that somewhere?) Never mind. I found the answer in another thread. They are the faction decks (according to a Twitter Post by Eric). Thread here: http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?45492-Art-work-for-whiskey-golem/page2 Edited July 24, 2013 by Arli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 Hm.. So dual faction masters will go only in one deck did I get that right? Wont they change about every master to be dual faction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalcyonSeraph Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 Hm.. So dual faction masters will go only in one deck did I get that right? Wont they change about every master to be dual faction? Where are you seeing that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gensuke626 Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 Maybe it is a good time to resurect thi thread again. Necromancy is always a crime! :rams Now we know the format of cards used durig BETA, we know that there will be two Arsenal Boxes for each fraction. Do You expect WYRD will release free pdf with cards for models used in first BETA? No What price do You expect for Arsenal Boxes (and if the price will be the same for Wave I and Wave II Arsenal Boxes)? A reasonable one. :Smug_Puppet2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helm Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 Maybe it is a good time to resurect thi thread again. Now we know the format of cards used durig BETA, we know that there will be two Arsenal Boxes for each fraction. Do You expect WYRD will release free pdf with cards for models used in first BETA? What price do You expect for Arsenal Boxes (and if the price will be the same for Wave I and Wave II Arsenal Boxes)? Not that my opinion is particularly relevant, but Wyrd seems to be gearing M2E very much towards bringing in newer players. At the moment, the vast majority of product on shelves is V1.5. Gencon will have a few boxes, certainly, but Wave 1 alone accounts for 21 Master boxed sets and a great number of other boxes. There's going to be a long transition period before all current 1.5 product is replaced with 2E plastics, and new players aren't really going to wait. This means a long period where people are going to be buying 1.5 product and will need 2E cards. Assuming Wyrd does not release the rules for free, this means that new players will have to buy cards via Arsenal decks. It has been stated by Wyrd that these will be priced as reasonably as possible, however in order to get the full range of cards players will need to pay that price multiplied by seven, and that price would presumably not be spent on product that would fetch Wyrd more profit. However, most anyone playing M2E is going to be getting the main rulebook, and that will contain all of the rules for the models anyway. Just as someone receiving a free PDF would be likely to print and laminate the cards for tabletop use, the same could be done with photographed pages of the rulebook for essentially an equal amount of effort. People could also just flick from page to page. Ultimately, while cards are nice, they're not absolutely required for play. Wyrd also has the option to repack existing V1.5 boxed sets at least with V2 cards. The Arsenal Boxes are a product that is almost entirely for the convenience of people like me, with a preexisting collection of models, and as Wyrd replaces metal models with V2 plastics the worth of Arsenal Boxes will vanish. Wyrd isn't known for making products that they know will become useless. That they are willing to take this step for the sakes of oldtime players is, for me, very significant in terms of their willingness to support us. Meanwhile, releasing the free PDFs would have negative consequences as well. Ultimately, model rules belong to Wyrd, and they have consistently made the decision to have us pay for the rules that we use. Throughout 1.5, model rules have been bought directly from Wyrd with the models themselves, as individual cards or in books; I personally have no issue with paying for the rules that I use. Having clearly decided that being paid for their rules work is important, I would imagine that Wyrd intends to continue this trend. If Wyrd decides to give us a free PDF for Waves 1 and 2, new players are going to be confused and upset if Wyrd later turns around and says "we're releasing a new book, and we would like you to pay for the rules please". If Wyrd decides to make all models' rules available for free even after Wave 2, then the rules exclusivity of the books themselves will be lost. Speaking personally, I only own Book 3 of Malifaux and the Rules Manual. If I had a full free preview of all models anyway, I would not have bought Book 3. A company that leans on its miniatures and wargaming rules is going to be hard pressed also selling glorified short story compilations. Ultimately, I can't see Wyrd putting out a free PDF of model rules. They've offered a product for people with collections of older models, they have solidly protected their Malifaux models' rules throughout the company's history and giving out rules for free could harm future book sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 The Arsenal Boxes are a product that is almost entirely for the convenience of people like me, with a preexisting collection of models, and as Wyrd replaces metal models with V2 plastics the worth of Arsenal Boxes will vanish. Wyrd isn't known for making products that they know will become useless. That they are willing to take this step for the sakes of oldtime players is, for me, very significant in terms of their willingness to support us. Dude, come on. Can you imagine the uproar that would've followed if Wyrd would've said that the only way to get M2 cards would be by buying new minis? Has any minis company that uses cards ever done something as patently insane as that? Ultimately, I can't see Wyrd putting out a free PDF of model rules. They've offered a product for people with collections of older models, they have solidly protected their Malifaux models' rules throughout the company's history and giving out rules for free could harm future book sales. Well, the last time they made major changes to many of the cards, they released them as a PDF, so that's kind of an outright falsehood you're telling there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helm Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Dude, come on. Can you imagine the uproar that would've followed if Wyrd would've said that the only way to get M2 cards would be by buying new minis? Has any minis company that uses cards ever done something as patently insane as that? I take your point that they weren't going to refuse to sell M2E cards separate from the models, but Wyrd already has a service to sell cards for models you don't have. It would be no effort for them to stick with that model. I'm simply saying that, as a UK player with an existing collection, I appreciate being able to buy them off shop shelves. I'm also saying that Wyrd won't be making much money off them and that sales will drop extremely rapidly after M2E's initial release. While we're talking about what's "patently insane", are you aware of any of those companies with card-based miniatures games releasing said cards for free? Well, the last time they made major changes to many of the cards, they released them as a PDF, so that's kind of an outright falsehood you're telling there. It's not a falsehood, and what you are saying supports my point. To my knowledge, Wyrd has only released free PDFs of the statcards that have undergone errata changes. If Wyrd had any intention of giving all their model rules away for free, they could have done it alongside those errata'd statcards for zero extra cost to them. They did not. As I said above, my opinion of Wyrd's inner workings is irrelevant, but Wyrd is not presenting M2E rules as some kind of apology as they did with the errata'd 1.5 cards. Not to mention that those rules were released long after the books that the models came in; I'm aware that this is the nature of an errata anyway, but those PDFs couldn't possibly harm book sales. Releasing the full model line's rules for free will harm book sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caen Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 . Releasing the full model line's rules for free will harm book sales. to some extent probably Yes ... but for sure releasing pdf will make WYRD customers (especially those who possess more than one fraction) extremely happy that they do not need to buy all Decks at once but can do it step by step and used during this transition period printed pdf cards. Happy customers ... what can be more important Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 to some extent probably Yes ... but for sure releasing pdf will make WYRD customers (especially those who possess more than one fraction) extremely happy that they do not need to buy all Decks at once but can do it step by step and used during this transition period printed pdf cards. Happy customers ... what can be more important Or you could just buy the book and photocopy the pages you want to use in that transition period. I stil don't agree with your arguements that we should be entitiled to something new for free just because we bought an older version. A free PDF wouldn't make me happy, and I'm a wyrd customer with models from 6 factions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalcyonSeraph Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Yeah, you seem to be under the impression that making customers happy is the first and only priority, at the expense of anything else. Making customers happy is important, but you have to balance that with the necessity of staying in business. Coca-cola's customers would be very happy if they all got free soda for life but the company would fold before long if they did that. They're releasing the faction decks because it's a game with an established playerbase that needs a way to get the new cards without rebuying models. As you say they couldn't really do it any other way because customers rightly would not stand for it. It would be equivalent to saying your old models were no good anymore and you have to start over. They have an obligation to the customers to make sure they have a way to get the rules without getting all new models. They are under zero obligation to give you the new game rules for free. Your models and your cards still work. Play 1.5 with them all you want, forever. If you want to play M2E you need to buy M2E, and they conveniently have a way to get the cards for all the models in a faction at once. Remember the stats will be in the book as well, or at least I assume they will. If you can't or won't be able to buy decks for all your factions, play out of the book for some of them until you can get the cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caen Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) ... it seams that You didn't notice ";)" in my post. The rulebook is the first thing I need - and then I will make further decision. It will be legal do make corrections in Beta Cards and used them insted of Decks? Edited July 25, 2013 by caen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalcyonSeraph Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 ... it seams that You didn't notice ";)" in my post. The rulebook is the first thing I need - and then I will make further decision. It will be legal do make corrections in Beta Cards and used them insted of Decks? Sure, the beta material is free and open and there's no reason you couldn't correct them, just like it would be perfectly legal for you to print out photocopied pages from the book (that you buy) and use them in sleeves as cards. As long as you aren't stealing anything or selling anything you're fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caen Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Sure, the beta material is free and open and there's no reason you couldn't correct them, just like it would be perfectly legal for you to print out photocopied pages from the book (that you buy) and use them in sleeves as cards. As long as you aren't stealing anything or selling anything you're fine. Thanks Sounds good for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebarbalag Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Sure, the beta material is free and open and there's no reason you couldn't correct them, just like it would be perfectly legal for you to print out photocopied pages from the book (that you buy) and use them in sleeves as cards. As long as you aren't stealing anything or selling anything you're fine. Unfortunately, that's not exactly true. Just because you bought something does not mean you have permission to reproduce it, even for personal use, in the US, at least. Whether or not anyone cares is a different issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caen Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Reproducing rulebook pages is not a good solution. Easier is to make changes to Beta Cards. This will be legal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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