1st edition puppet wars update?

[SpiralngCadavr]

I've got the entire first edition of puppets, minus the limited edition ones, and, as nice as the new ones are, I just don't have the energy to repaint an entire game's worth of puppets, especially since I like my originals.

So, the question I've asked in a few different places but never gotten a straight answer to:

Is there any update package planned for those of us who already have the first edition?

I'm not looking for a free handout or anything, but I don't need another set of the same models but at a different scale... I'm looking for the rules and cards ('cause I think that's what's new, regarding function?)

Thanks!

edit: got a post elsewhere that says I can get the rules online, i.e. there'll be no available version in print? Is this correct?

---------- Post added at 02:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------

...if there's no news yet, but, I'm a bit surprised if there's really no official word, with the eminent release.

---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------

Well, got an answer finally on Dakka, guess I had given up over there too soon.

For the record, no printed version, for anyone else who had the same question.

Copy-pasting my answer from the other thread:

Oh, well. That's the first thing Wyrd's done that's really annoyed me :/

The supposed support of Puppet Wars was nearly negligible, and now second edition doesn't even update the game for players who played the first. I feel kind of like a chump for the $200+ I dropped on the game.

I also feel like it's pretty dishonest to keep stock of the first edition on the web store without any clear notice about the imminent and incompatible second release

---------- Post added at 05:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:52 PM ----------

If I'm misunderstanding this, like, the actual word is "there won't be a print version immediately available but it will eventually be," please let me know. I'd really like this to not be the final word on the matter...

[ThePandaDirector]

So let me get this straight, you want to play PWU - with the new rules and Puppet stat cards - with the metal models. Right?

I just ask that because anyone who prefers the more complicated/detailed stat cards of 1st edition are unlikely to be all that fussed with the 2nd edition stat cards. To my knowledge, that covers a lot of the people who own the metals and don't plan on buying the plastics.

That last point is also important considering that, with the number of people who are getting 2nd edition and the number who will stay at 1st edition, there isn't going to be a lot of people left to make the cost of providing purchasable 2nd edition stat cards viable.

No point selling it as a deck, because that's too costly for such low demand, plus if it came in a box rather than a cheap packet then people like me would be annoyed that it isn't in the starter. I do hope that when the expansion hits the stat cards come in a box with enough room for the starter cards (using a Puppet Deck box atm).

So the alternative is to provide cards available to buy separately. Would likely be more costly for people with larger collections, but it means Wyrd can simply print to demand. It would be a good gesture to those who invested in 1st edition (paid £260 only to drop £45 on PWU), but its primary purpose would actually be to supply replacements for those who lose/damage the cards that come with PWU. The plus side of letting those with the metals get a hold of them is that it allows them to sell the "proper" game to people, people who may then buy the starter.

So while Wyrd might be planning to have the stat cards available online or through some app thingy, I think they would profit despite the extra resources required to provide what is effectively a replacement card service.

Note: There isn't any need to have the rulebook available separately imo, since the rules will be online and they're practically the same as 1st edition. Once you learn the changes, you no longer need the rulebook anyway.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to go through the motions in as logical a manner as possible. As much as I empathise with you, I don't think customer entitlement is the way to convince Wyrd to do this. Still, I have some ideas of how Wyrd could reward 1st edition players, placing more of an emphasis on unlocking rewards (ala KS) as opposed to guilt tripping.

Now where's that damn baby emperor and his puppet gremlin...?

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yes, the idea is to be able to play the current rules set with my older models. I don't particularly care about the rulebook being available in print because, as you said, if you play a game frequently, you'll memorize the rules quickly, so this is really about the deck.

You usually make points that, if I don't agree with, I at least follow, but, I'm not really sure what you're presenting: "They're in it for profit, and this might not get them one," I think?

So, responding to that, have experience with how much stuff costs to print when printed in bulk, and am sure that they'd be able to make back their money selling it: They even already have all the printed materials, and it would be pretty easy to cover virtually all options by making a deck that consisted of the game, four releases, and the few limited edition pieces. There'll always be outliers with huge quantities of extras or whatever, but that would cover the vast majority of players.

I'm not attempting to convince Wyrd to do anything, and don't feel like my voice carries enough weight to change things, but I am raising a point: I'm just very disappointed that they haven't done more.

This is the only living miniatures game* I've ever played that got a new edition that didn't have some way of acquiring the rules separate of buying an entire new edition with completely redundant pieces. (You could consider this "customer entitlement" with negative connotations, but, what it comes down to is (at least my experiences with) the entire rest of the industry.)

*i.e. Space Hulk getting a new edition after thirteen years plus doesn't fall under this category for hopefully obvious reasons

However, if I wanted to make an appeal to Wyrd, my point would actually be customer entitlement, in the actual sense of the word, that (as far as any verbal agreement allows) of having the right to something:

Wyrd said they would continue to support the game. I'm not sure about the timing of limited edition models, but the only serious release since the first wave of the game that I've seen was the second edition, which makes the first obsolete... i.e. there's been no material support of the game. As far as I'm concerned, this is just shy of lying to their customers, and only shy of it because it technically wasn't, because there has been marginal digital support.

Wyrd is the biggest game company that I still put any trust in. They've done right by us numerous times, but this was a serious breach in my faith in the company. If nothing happens with this, I won't "rage quit," but they'll have gone from "the good guys" whom I often recommend, encourage people to try out, and sometimes demo for, to "just another company" that I occasionally buy from.

Edit: Putting this in a different light, I'm curious as to why you think they're putting out decks for Malifaux but not PW? I have my own opinions, but would like to hear yours...

Edited May 2, 2013 by SpiralngCadavr

[Omenbringer]

Perhaps an available "online only" upgrade pack could solve the problem (something I have been lobbying for since the Unstitched Playtest).

Granted having the rules available online is great however I am not always near a computer, aside from Malifaux I play several different games sometimes weeks or months apart and don't have the memory I used to. I enjoy the hell out of Puppet Wars however, the family and friends like to play other games as well. Having a Printed Rule book is something I (and I am sure I am not alone on this) consider a necessity.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Would be 100% behind a webstore only thing, which would cut the overhead etc. for Wyrd...

[ThePandaDirector]

I don't quite understand this sentence:

"a deck that consisted of the game, four releases, and the few limited edition pieces"

I assume by LE you mean Viktoria and HR? By "four releases" do you mean the four booster packs (incl. expansion pack)? I'm just wondering if you're planning on waiting for the PWU expansion to hit so you can also get the new stat cards for the 1st edition puppets not in the starter. Teddy might be an issue, because we don't know how it'll be handled in PWU.

Malifaux is very well established, and while I don't know how Wyrd will handle the new cards, it applies to a very large group of people. But I certainly hope Wyrd have a replacement card service for those of us who damage/lose a single card and don't want to buy an entire deck to replace it.

Same applies to PW, and that's the route I think they should take. A full fledged deck has no purpose beyond appeasing (what I imagine to be) a very small group (take the short lived release of PW, minus PWU buyers, 1st edition purists and those who dropped off and there's likely not many left).

A limited release of the full deck would be fine, but a full deck seems weird because PWU is a self contained "here's all you need" set, and so once you guys have the cards, no one else will need them (because just like Malifaux, I don't want to buy a full deck to replace a couple cards).

I can't replace my cards for Sedition Wars, so if I want to use the old metal models (which I don't own) I'd have to look on ebay. I agree, Wyrd didn't handle the jump between 1st and 2nd edition very well, and those of us (you and I) who invested a lot are left with little more than a "thanks for fish". But there's no point releasing something that will effectively be obsolete within a year or two, and then never producing that product for later non-1st ed. stat cards (because then that really would be pointless).

So a limited release, followed by a replacement card service would be imo the best route, because while Wyrd do need to earn back some trust (from us fanpuppets more than anyone), they would be better off finding an elegant way to do so. For all my wall of text, that's effectively what I'm saying =]

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yes, I think that's what I meant re: question at the top, though I'm not sure what you mean about waiting for the PWU expansion or what the question is about the teddies, not sure how they're different from any other pieces.

I'm not sure where you've been getting the idea that there would be a particularly small group of players who want to continue playing with the new edition but don't want to buy new models.

It's not like each edition I played of 40k had me saying to myself "well, do I retire the space marines I have and buy more of the identically functional game pieces with more bling, or do I hold on to my old models and play old editions?" I have models in my collection from 20 years ago that go right alongside ones from last year. Same goes with Warmachine- the first minis I bought have all been updated, but that doesn't mean I choose between scrapping the old ones or not buying the new rules, and I definitely know I'm not the only one who's perfectly happy having collections that span multiple editions, to keep up with newer releases.

Continuing the analogy, if 1- there's any sort of reasonable print option for the puppet wars update and 2- wyrd releases entirely new pieces (for instance, new masters or w/e), I'll be 100% down with buying those and adding them to my collection. If Wyrd forces me to choose between first edition and buying a new edition*, I'll continue buying Malifaux stuff but they won't see a dime for puppet wars: I'll either keep playing the old edition or eventually sell it off as a complete collection.

*because I really don't consider digital only rules an option in a miniatures game with stat cards- if I want something I need to constantly consult a screen to play, I'll play a video game

I'm really unclear what you mean about the difference between a limited release full deck and a full deck. Are you saying they shouldn't be released indefinitely? Because, usually updates like decks are around for a few months or maybe half a year, and I wouldn't expect any different from Wyrd.

I think we're in agreement, re: limited release and the last paragraph, but again, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying in the middle...

Edited May 3, 2013 by SpiralngCadavr

[morella]

Perhaps an available "online only" upgrade pack could solve the problem (something I have been lobbying for since the Unstitched Playtest).

I was hoping for something like this also. It's not like it would hurt individual retailers either, as otherwise I (and others in the same situation probably) am unlikely to buy the new set anyway, just continue playing the original.

[ThePandaDirector]

Ok, so we pretty much agree on the key point. As to your confusion:

My point regarding Teddy, etc, is purely based on the fact that those models don't exist in PWU and Teddy in particularly could very well change to fit in with the "everything in the box" policy Wyrd have taken with PWU (Teddy was not only LE, but ignored the 3 max. requirement for pawns, which I think will change in their 2nd edition form). So on that matter, I was merely saying that if you want the whole of 1st edition upgraded in one deck, you'd have to wait until wave 1.5 of PWU is released.

As for my assumption (and it is an assumption) regarding the limited number of people this would apply to, it was based on the fact that PW received a limited release that petered out, didn't see much activity, and was generally too expensive for most, so the liklihood of there being many active players with 1st edition miniatures after all this time is decreased, especially considering those who have no interest in 2nd edition rules or have bought PWU and therefore have the stat cards for their plastics and metal puppets. It is an assumption, but I don't compare the edition change to Malifaux or 40K, because PW is far less established and the time between 1st edition going quiet and 2nd edition being released has as much to do with the likely decrease in 1st edition owners looking for an upgrade as Wyrd's handling of the edition change. I only used this point to highlight the limited longetivity of such a product. A RCS however, would last as long as the game, even beyond any edition change. Both would be nice.

So yeah, holding onto older models is fine, as is wanting an upgrade option. Hopefully, Wyrd are going to give us a number of examples of how they plan to support and develop PW - from rewarding those who helped it in the beginning, to giving us all a reason to look forward to its future.

[Omenbringer]

As for my assumption (and it is an assumption) regarding the limited number of people this would apply to, it was based on the fact that PW received a limited release that petered out, didn't see much activity, and was generally too expensive for most, so the liklihood of there being many active players with 1st edition miniatures after all this time is decreased, especially considering those who have no interest in 2nd edition rules or have bought PWU and therefore have the stat cards for their plastics and metal puppets.

I wouldn't classify the 1st edition of Puppet Wars as a limited release. They may not have requested a second print run once the initial units were sold but the initial run was still substantial.

It is an assumption, but I don't compare the edition change to Malifaux or 40K, because PW is far less established and the time between 1st edition going quiet and 2nd edition being released has as much to do with the likely decrease in 1st edition owners looking for an upgrade as Wyrd's handling of the edition change. I only used this point to highlight the limited longetivity of such a product. A RCS however, would last as long as the game, even beyond any edition change. Both would be nice.

This is the exact reason that an "upgrade pack" should be offered. No one expected the game to last forever but at least a year would have been nice before a substantial overhaul.

So yeah, holding onto older models is fine, as is wanting an upgrade option. Hopefully, Wyrd are going to give us a number of examples of how they plan to support and develop PW - from rewarding those who helped it in the beginning, to giving us all a reason to look forward to its future.

As one of many who bought in early and heavily as well as actively worked toward building the fledgling community I sincerely hope that we are at least thrown a small bone (aside from a thanks). Additionally, with all the branding irons in the fire that Wyrd has currently, I really hope it isn't forgotten about (despite the greater Gaming Industry having a really unfortunate precedent of doing precisely that).

[Clousseau]

Puppet Wars web page is down for maintenance so hopefully there will be some news laters this month when it goes live.

Did think of buying a box and then selling the fate decks and models to leave me with new rules, cards and tokens, but probably not economical. So let's hope for a card /token pack.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah, but there aren't a ton of uses for those minis in other games... My only thought would have been to use character doubles for neverborn dolls etc., but it seemed more like trying to get the best of a bad thing than an actual solution.

[JohnHwangWM]

Like many others, I bought a full set of PW - game, all 4 expansion sets, etc.

I would like a PWU rulespack consisting of the PWU rulebook and PWU cards so that I can move forward to the current edition of the rules.

I accept that PW has more models than in PWU, and I am OK to play them "treat as" or "count as" some official PWU model.

I do not understand why some people are so obstinate about now making it easy for those who spent more on PW to move to PWU rules.

[SpiralngCadavr]

100% with you, John. Unless everything I've learned from working with marketing/printing is wrong/inapplicable, it seems like a given that selling the printed material would/should be doable without any strife and show customer appreciation.