Campaign Rules Trials and Tribulations

[pixelante]

So my group gave the campaign rules a whirl yesterday and already the system is looking kind of rickety.

1. It might be a 1 in 52 chance but if your Master is injured and then flips the Red Joker then that crew is done. Because no one will want to play that crew.

2. If you are going to run the campaign it has to be in a relatively large group or else the gameplay will get pretty stale. Scratch that. Playing the same crew over and over again is something I find less than exciting.

3. The "finish off" move must not be cheatable as this will just upset some people and encourage retaliatory reciprocation.

4. If your crew has only 4 models due to injury you could run one model forward to take an artifact, maybe even two, sacrifice/kill another and then declare your withdrawing at the start of the next turn. Possibly preventing your opponent from getting any extra artifacts if they aren't expecting this. Essentially gaming the system if you have been saving guild script.

After two games my crew had a Ronin with Black blood and flight from the deal with the Devil and -2 wp and the Convict Gunslinger with Moonshine (reckless) and ranged expert. Overpowered much?

What has been your experience with the campaign so far?

[BC3]

I agree that there are some problems with the campaign rules, but I think I see them differently.

1.) I don't think that masters will be killed too often. It seems that since you can get an easy 2 scrip and avoid losing or damaging a very critical piece that many people will just try to Bodyguard their masters. I don't think that anyone is going to be trying to continually injure his/her master to get the Avatar result. It is much more likely to show up on a minion that is used very aggressively.

2.) I think that instead of getting a "new crew" between each game, your old crew gets newer as you play. You can add new minions and stones to your crew, which makes it play differently. You can also add upgrades that will drasticly change how certain models play. Imagine Ophelia with a Bayonet! Lilith with a Bayonet could charge something 29" away in a single activation (though I don't know if that is a fundamental change in how she is played as much as an improvement in efficiency).

3.) Finishing off models to injure them is a counterbalance to the "overpowering" upgrades. If you do, for example, give your Ronin Hydraulics and Keys to the Armory, you can bet your buttons your opponent is going to try to make sure it stays nice and dead. You get an interesting tactical tension here- do I use my high cards to actually hit the thing, or do I not cheat high on attacks and then try to make sure it dies?

4.) Yep. You could game the system. You could also colllude with your opponent to not play real Malifaux and just farm guild scrip by "playing games" against each other where everyone scores 8 VP each time. I think that the people who would really try to do something like this aren't the kind of people who really want to play a campaign anyway.

I think some models can get a little out of hand with some upgrades. Our group is limitiing items to 18 barter rating worth of stuff per minion.

I feel like there is a pro-Neverborn bias in the upgrade list. There is a 1 AP charge item, but no 1 AP channel or focus strike item or improvement to defensive stance. You have 4 abilities you can buy on the general list and 3 of them require a mask (the other, Critical Strike, is very limited in usefulness outside Guild models that tend to have this trigger and a lot of built-in rams anyway).

I think ressers might be a close second for the sheer fact that they can give their masters slow to die, quite nice to have when you can use soulstones.

Edited April 21, 2013 by BC3

[xKoBiEx]

Ressers have the best upgrade pool, in my opinion. Slow to Die on all your models is a pretty good start. Some masters don't have Slow to Die for a reason. From experience, playing against a McMourning who has Slow to Die and can summon a Rogue Necromancy on first turn is pretty unnerving.

[BC3]

I think that most of the faction-specific upgrades are pretty good. Ressers has to get the nod because of the ability to make your Master very very tough to kill. Som'er would kill to have Numb.

The real loser (if there is one) is Guild. Guild Attitude I rather like for the price but your mileage on that will vary. I would still say it is a better 1 scrip choice than most. The other two abilities there compete with stuff on the general list that is almost always better for that cost. I would probably take a free melee or ranged AP or paired weapons over +1 Damage from a trigger. Likewise, I think that decapitate will be rather hard to activate reliably.

Side note: Why does flurry have a higher BR than Melee Expert? Isn't it just strictly worse unless you already have ME?

Edited April 21, 2013 by BC3

[xKoBiEx]

I like the Guild pool better than the 10T pool. What I would really like is a Strongarm Suit, though. The Outcast pool is amazing.

[BC3]

I do not dislike the Guild upgrades, I just have a hard time seeing how I would use the second two. The equivalents on the general chart are better. That isn't to say that they are bad, they just suffer from being "special" options that are in most cases weaker versions of the standard ones.

The Secret Agenda upgrade is going to be a must if you can flip it. From The Shadows can be very nice for certain minions, and True Loyalty is definitely priced right. You won't often get any of these ones because the BR is so high but they all do something really special.

[EnternalVoid]

For the upgrades I would say Guild Attire is a reactive one to a campaign rather than a generalistic one. If a third of your group is playing one faction in the campaign it really adds to your mileage on it, more so in that it boost both attack and damage, it is not limited to only melee or range. Other faction Masters get a tad worried by this as it means it is that much easier for them to get strait damage flips. But I will agree that its value will vary on your group and its spread.

As for Key's for the Armory, that really favors those that already have stuff like Melee Expect or are not concerned about their Cb and hitting as much. Lady J is not getting really any extra AP save for the one use item Coffee, but with Key's to the Armory you now have her at an aditional point of damage. That makes her minimum damage 5, 6 if you use a Ram in the duel. If she ups her Cb to hit with her spell then she can pretty easily one shot minions at this point and even masters have to fear a very possible 9 damage severe. With her ability to get a high Cb already she worries less about having something like Paired. Perdita is another master that I think will enjoy the Keys as with Gunfighter you will not be sure if you want Ranged Expert or Melee Expert with her. This way you just know she has a better Minimum damage and not have to worry about Hard to Wound models or the like. For Lucius it lets him get Governor's Authority automatically with his swings. An interesting possibility if your group does not limit Upgrades any further than the core rules that limit him to 2.

As for Minions, Death Marshals much like Perdita are fans of the Keys as it boosts both their melee and their range damage and does not incline them to one way or the other. Giving them range expert and your opponent will try to get into melee, give them melee and they might be more tempted to shoot you to death. Giving them the Keys just makes them a high damage minion that can do either. The Warden likes it as it gives its Range Attack the second Ram it needs for Pinning Blow so that all shots it has now can paralyze as long as they damage. It also gives Sadir the Ram he needs for auto triggering Punch Through.

As for Decapitation, it comes up more than you would think. Having played Misaki, having a master with Use Soulstone and one of the suits built it, it comes up and comes up more than people would think. More so Guild does not have alot of models competing for high Crow cards. If anything I suspect the part that will limit it more is that it will paint a target on the model if it is not a master and if it is a master, most of them prefer their chosen forms of combat, and Lady J is the primarily Melee one.

AS far as faction upgrades I say the Outcasts and Ressers took the top of the class though Arcanists are up there as well. Outcasts might be dragged down below Arcanists if you play Gremlins as Moonshine does less for you and while the Strongarm Suit is awesome, you also have to Flip a Red Joker to get it. I would say after that comes Guild followed by 10T and Neverborn viaing for the last place. Though like said, there are other upgrades that Neverborn will favor in the normal list.

[AtomicKeen]

Just finished a campaign with 'Dita flying around in a Fully Tested Jetpack, toting paired Peacebringers...

Von Schill, eat your heart out.

[BC3]

I can see that Keys can be useful for some triggers. What it does have going for it is that since it is equipment you can pass it around between games.

[i_was_like_you]

Leveticus with Moonshine...Speed up his killing and his dying, all in one swing.

In our Campaign, VonSchill has Moonshine and Paired Clockwork Seekers. Seamus will be starting next game with Ranged Expert and 2 corpses. Hungering Darkness with From the Shadows and I'm still choosing between Dynamite and Bayonet.

[pixelante]

I think it would work better if you couldn't tool up your crew as you choose. Instead of requisition you could say its the black market. Draw the artifact cards and then form another deck have 52 items associated with each value and suit with the Black Joker equaling Ripped off! - lose a random barter card and Red Joker equaling Bargain! -draw again and get half off the script and Barter card rounding down. The number of cards you get to draw from the black market equals the number of crew that survived until the end of the game.

[vulture96]

My main suggestion would to be to make the BR upgrades only the card that was selected and not every number less.

This will really require a decision about whether to buy an artifact and encourage trading among league members. It also mitigates against the super-minions.

[EnternalVoid]

Shhh, you are reading my mind i_was_like_you for some of my thoughts. Don't give my opponents ideas.

I would go with Bayonet myself as there are plenty of times I would rather not have HD die or my opponent just try to avoid or push him away. Bayonet would help him get back in there fairly easily.

[i_was_like_you]

But with higher BR upgrades being arguably better, limiting our upgrade choice to only that number would make more super minions, in my opinion.

To limit that, limit the number of artifacts your opponent claims. The more they claim, the more chances they'll flip high cards.

Something probably could be done to encourage more trading, but I don't think this would be the answer.

---------- Post added at 01:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 AM ----------

Shhh, you are reading my mind i_was_like_you for some of my thoughts. Don't give my opponents ideas.

I would go with Bayonet myself as there are plenty of times I would rather not have HD die or my opponent just try to avoid or push him away. Bayonet would help him get back in there fairly easily.

Bayonet should probably have the same stipulation that Bishop has, where if the model doesn't end the charge in melee range with another model, it ends its activation. It's not the only upgrade that seems to be better than some of the original abilities.

---------------------

Oh, From the Shadows on Huggy was great last game. Deployed him in a building near an opponent's Stake a Claim Marker (far enough away to be legal) and still close enough to make a break for the other opponent's Treasure. Activated Huggy, ran him to sit on the treasure, ordered VonSchill to walk back off of the building he had camped on, making him have to waste his activation next turn to get back up there. On that turn, walked the treasure towards my forces, and into the safe shadow of a building. Made VonSchill have to come down to us. Big mistake. Too bad the game ended at the end of the turn. VS was going to start with just his Nimble and Moonshine Reckless, thanks to my Beckoner stripping his AP.

Edited April 22, 2013 by i_was_like_you

[BC3]

I think Bayonet is probably the best value in a piece of gear. Most melee minions will just double charge instead of walking if they have it and they will close with their targets so quickly.

Take that, overpowered Malifaux shooting!

How about Gunfighter? It feels like it deserves a spot on the general list more than a lot of abilities... yes, I'm looking at you Obey.

[Misery Rex]

So my group gave the campaign rules a whirl yesterday and already the system is looking kind of rickety.

1. It might be a 1 in 52 chance but if your Master is injured and then flips the Red Joker then that crew is done. Because no one will want to play that crew.

2. If you are going to run the campaign it has to be in a relatively large group or else the gameplay will get pretty stale. Scratch that. Playing the same crew over and over again is something I find less than exciting.

3. The "finish off" move must not be cheatable as this will just upset some people and encourage retaliatory reciprocation.

4. If your crew has only 4 models due to injury you could run one model forward to take an artifact, maybe even two, sacrifice/kill another and then declare your withdrawing at the start of the next turn. Possibly preventing your opponent from getting any extra artifacts if they aren't expecting this. Essentially gaming the system if you have been saving guild script.

After two games my crew had a Ronin with Black blood and flight from the deal with the Devil and -2 wp and the Convict Gunslinger with Moonshine (reckless) and ranged expert. Overpowered much?

What has been your experience with the campaign so far?

I agree with some of this,

on 1) Yes, 100% agree. Either Masters should not be killable or if your master does get killed you get to start over fresh with a brand new, 25ss crew.

on 2) No arguments here, maybe there should be a side board of "Reinforcements" that can be swapped out, this would also let you bench a model so badly mauled it is just walking wounded or lessen the blow of permanently losing a model (a 6-8ss hit in a 25 ss crew is pretty brutal).

on 3) Maybe, the thing is it can also be used positively. When fighting fellow Guild players I either refrain from cheating up the flip or deliberately cheat it down. Generating good will means it is more likely they will trade/Lend equipment and other items,especially if someone elses crew is getting ridiculous. Plus sometimes it is nice not to be "that guy".

on 4) Sure you could do that, and in fact if you are badly outmatched that might even be a valid strategy, the thing is it also hands the other guy a boatload of Script for just showing up and the chances that you earned any on a game played like that are pretty remote.

My big problem is that there should be stricter limits on the upgrades available, either by making them more expensive or by limiting the number allowed on minions. Maybe defining how many Permanent and/or Equipment can be combined on each (including minions!).

Secondly there should be a bigger bump for playing against crew that out costs you, a run of bad luck or a player taking an early lead can result in some seriously frustrating games. I know you get half the difference in Script in the end, which helps next game but it doesn't help the crappy game you had to play to get it. Maybe a some bonus soul stones at the start of the game dependant on the gap might help, not sure how to fix that one though.

---------- Post added at 12:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 PM ----------

My main suggestion would to be to make the BR upgrades only the card that was selected and not every number less.

This will really require a decision about whether to buy an artifact and encourage trading among league members. It also mitigates against the super-minions.

Excellent idea! Minions, especially something like Izamu or Snowstorm start out not that much less scary than some Masters, adding multiple upgrades to that is just silly.

[i_was_like_you]

If your master dies (or even has to sit out a game or two), it's not the end of the world. I'd recommend just adding Use Soulstones to another model that may not be as squishy. That, or maybe give us an option to pay more Script to revive them, possibly without any upgrades we may have given them, to get them back into the Campaign. It is still a major hamstring to most crews, even if other crews can be fairly autonomous without their Master.

Reinforcements, or a B-team, might be a good way to go. Maybe use the Hiring Pool option in conjunction with the Campaign Rules to give you more possible starting linemen.

Sounds like a good gesture. Hopefully no one in your league mistakes your kindness for weakness.

[Misery Rex]

Nah, my weakness is pretty obvious, no mistaking that.

My idea of gaming is that win or lose everyone should always have fun, I faced off against a guy that was running at a severe disadvantage due to some unfortunate events, I had an opportunity to Finish Off one of the four remaining models of his crew. Doing so would not have significantly added to my fun while it would have possibly made his already bad position worse, lessening the chance he would be having any fun at all. My first rule of gaming (that took me awhile to learn), Don't be a Dick...lol.

I like the idea of being able to re-hire your Master, or maybe having the option to permanently burn a soul stone from your cache to reflip for them on the injury tables.

[i_was_like_you]

Pay the Scrip to provide the best medical care their faction can provide.

Reflipping might be a good option. I was thinking pretty much the same thing.