Requested price discussion thread

[i_was_like_you]

The clockwork thread is mostly done, but let's go ahead and move this pricing convo into another thread if we can - at least then it can be easily referenced in the future.

Should anyone want to continue the discussion, here's a thread for it.

[Ryu]

I'm not a huge stickler for plastic vs metal (though I do like Malifaux's metal models due to relatively easy assembly so far) but I'm not too upset by the plastic prices. Malifaux is still the most affordable minis game - you can pick up about 4 crew boxes for the price of one 40k Battleforce.

Though my biggest qualm with plastics is the lack of individual models. I understand it's cheaper on the sprue yadda, yadda but there is obviously a large demand from the community for individual plastic models.

[micahwc]

I don't play GW games anymore, mostly because of price creep from when I started around 1997.

I am an army chaplain. I wanted to buy a single, plastic space marine chaplain for lol reasons. I have some soldiers who play 40k, so I thought it would be funny to have one on my desk. Two weeks ago I went into a LGS to see if they had one. They did, and they wanted $18 for a single plastic approximately height 2 model. No special equipment on it, no bike for it to ride, just 1 man sized 28mm model in Citadel Finecast.

My first purchase ever was a blood angels death company squad for $20. It included 10 space marines and 1 chaplain, with enough special weapons to outfit them all with a different load out. I remember thinking that the game was expensive then.

I am fine with the price of Wyrd models so far.

[Jewomie]

I go around and around about the metal vs plastic debate. I liked the metals because they rarely broke, simply came unglued or bent. where as the plastics are actually breaking. Ashigaru's flags and Izamu's arrows come to mind, and i worry about things like Misaki and yamizako's weapons, and Lucas McCabe's whip. I realize that is a tad off topic

The prices haven't gone up enough for me to gripe about, and i'm on a very very tight budget. And even if the prices continue to go up, i wont be too upset (though i'm certainly not asking wyrd to raise prices.)

The reason? this still hasn't become a pay to win game. You can't go drop 50 bucks on a single piece that will ensure you'll beat me simply because you could afford it and i couldn't.

Sure the prices have gone up a little bit, a three pack of witchlings is about 19.00 and the three pack of guild riflemen is 21.00. that two dollar increase could be chalked up to paying for the new plastic molds and the software and all that new stuff they just got to give us these new options. I think the part that we aren't seeing is for a subtle increase in our cost, Wyrd will actually start seeing some of our money, which is something i have no issue with. i want to support them and see them continue to grow.

I believe that because of this slight increase that came along with the new plastics we will see a stabilization in their prices for a while. Not forever of course, but if a little now keeps us from paying a lot in the future, i'm okay with it.

but if anyone from Wyrd reads this... can we go back to giving all the models huge boots? they were so much nicer to pin those as opposed to fiddly toed feet like Misaki... that was a nightmare

Edited March 20, 2013 by Jewomie

[Ausplosions]

There is no problem with the price of this game.

Not even a little.

[i_was_like_you]

I'll file this as a price issue: What happened to being able to buy stat cards from the Wyrd store?

Sure, there are still book 1 and 2 cards available, but it hasn't been updated to include the rest yet.

[Boshea]

Malifaux is still the most affordable minis game - you can pick up about 4 crew boxes for the price of one 40k Battleforce.

That is actually the guideline for my budget faction threads. The fact that a starter in this game (generally) gives you enough to play an average size game from the start is a big selling point. I don't need to spend more money on models to get an accurate feel of the game like I did with Warhammer (Battleboxes can't be played at all) and Warmahordes (Starter on starter games do not accurately represent the game).

[Joel]

There is no problem with the price of this game.

Not even a little.

this.

I look at my hobby expenditure over the last year (since I discovered Malifaux) and compare it to GW when I was playing WHFB - A year's worth of new release from wyrd (everything from book 4 for example), costs me less than changing a single army when GW change an army book.

I have been able to spend less in the last year - and get more for it - with wyrd.

has this saved me money - hell no! I bought terraclips and other terrain for building boards instead - but when I look at where my hobby now is I feel great!

I still chortle when a new blister/box arrives for a few pounds (less then I'd spend on a pizza) and completely revamps what I can do with a crew without making anything obsolete - and I can shake my head when I see the silly money people still pay for GW product.

[Inquisitor Wall]

Agreed. You would be hard pressed to find a cheaper miniatures game with models nearly as good as wyrd's. even at 21.00 for a unit of three models like the example above, one box and you are set. You don't need to buy three of those boxes to make a single playable unit like in some of the other games out there.

[Pierzasty]

Remember that we are not in the 1990s anymore. The bar has been raised very high. The times when GW's products were the only miniature games people played (or were they? ) are long gone, we have the internet, we have lots of skirmish systems, many of them good ones. If we don't like what's played in the local meta we can download some rules, get a few proxies and try new games without even printing them. If we like something it's easy and reasonably cheap to buy 2-3 starter boxes and a few blisters, start multiple factions and get a new group/system going. It's way easier to break free from a system as well. We're no longer slaves to the producer.

What does this have to do with Malifaux? Simple, I burned out hard on GW, and now I'm watching the systems I play and minis I collect with a much more critical eye. I'm not convinced that plastic is better in any way (yes I got used to working with metal again) and even if I buy the new minis (I'm looking at you Oiran and Metal Gamins), if they prove prone to breaking and noticeably worse than metal ones, they will be the last I buy. They charge more, they better give more/better product. Otherwise, well, there's tons of proxies out there ^+++^

Do note that I'm comparing the attitudes, not the overall army cost vs GW/PP. Those are firmly entrenched in the "Hahahahaha no way in hell" price range for me.

[CRC]

So, I decided to do some off the cuff math. Assuming that I wanted to collect the entire Resurrectionist faction, and going off the prices on Wyrd's webstore (ignoring tax, tariffs and shipping)

Boxes: $212

Avatars: $145

Totems and Similar: $93.50

Other Random Models: $321

Duplicates, alternates, etc: $0

Grand Total: $771.50 (mercenaries extra)

For that I get 88 models and the ability to play any list I want. (except really bent things like 10 necropunk lists.)

This is not nearly as cheap as I expected, but then again, I'm getting a lot of models for my dough.

[micahwc]

That's retail from the Wyrd site, from online miniature sites expect to pay about 1/3rd less. Score some sweet ebay or amazon deals and you can lower it a little more. I saw one of the new 10 thunders sets for $26 shipped on a popular online store. Unfortunately, it wasn't the one I wanted.

[Ryu]

And that's a whole faction. That's what, one diverse army in GW land? Maybe 2 if you don't expand their options much.

[micahwc]

I just realized how ironic it seems that Wyrd produced metal miniatures for years, then switched to plastic just in time to release metal gamin.

Metal metal gamin would have been cool. And I bet you could come up with an ice mold for ice gamin. Fire gamin would be tricky.

[therat]

And that's a whole faction. That's what, one diverse army in GW land? Maybe 2 if you don't expand their options much.

Yes, but that's a lot fewer models. Malifaux may be cheaper to play but it is not cheaper per model. $770 from GW would yield at least twice that number of models, depending on faction. GW box sets come out to about $2-$5/model, while Wyrd is around $7/model. I don't play much of GW anything anymore, but I also don't really understand the whole "Malifaux is so much cheaper" argument. Certainly, you can play a game by spending less money, but you are definitely paying more for the minis you buy.

[Ryu]

I also don't really understand the whole "Malifaux is so much cheaper" argument. Certainly, you can play a game by spending less money, but you are definitely paying more for the minis you buy.

The whole "Malifaux is cheaper" argument comes from the fact that this is a skirmish game and you need much fewer models to play. You can start playing competitive tournament games with a starter box and a blister or two - a total of $50-$75; cheaper if you go all online retail. If you really just wanted a crew you could get a crew together for about $30 (Nico's starter box is $15 right now on Amazon).

I have never seen that argument made in a model to model basis, with the exception of hero type models. Compare the price of a master to a WH commander. Of course you get more models for WH, it's an army scale game, it also has an initial barrier of at least $100 to play - and that's not even anywhere near competitively.

[Jewomie]

Yes, but that's a lot fewer models. Malifaux may be cheaper to play but it is not cheaper per model. $770 from GW would yield at least twice that number of models, depending on faction. GW box sets come out to about $2-$5/model, while Wyrd is around $7/model. I don't play much of GW anything anymore, but I also don't really understand the whole "Malifaux is so much cheaper" argument. Certainly, you can play a game by spending less money, but you are definitely paying more for the minis you buy.

it may be 7 bucks a model, but it's an entire faction. It is every possible hiring option, save some mercs.

I'm not saying 700 isn't a lot of money. but for less than 100 you can get the book you need, and more than enough minis for a 35ss crew with options.

example, for almost exactly 95 bucks you can get the relic hunter set, a pack of guild hounds, a pack of guild guards, the guild pathfinder with 4 clockwork traps and a guild austringer, plus a fate deck and the rules manual. What is that, 50ss worth of stuff? Certainly more than you'll ever need at the same time anyway. and it's enough that you'll probably never NEED anything to complete a stratagy that this crew couldn't handle.

and as for cheaper PER MODEL, that seems like an irrelevant feature since all the warmammer stuff is smaller, it's less detailed, it's characters aren't as dynamic. Especially once you get to the infantry level characters. So you are getting what you pay for in that respect. A 2 dollar model isn't going to look nearly as good/unique as a 5 dollar piece. Not to mention i was in the lgs yesterday and happened to see them charging 25 dollars for a single model. just one little space marine with a sword and a cape. So i am forced to assume that you are paying for what he brings to the game, not the model alone, because strictly speaking on looks... he was not worth 25 bucks. no way. Because their cost is tied directly to the usefulness of the game, i feel like a price comparison is too skewed to use anyway. Wyrd charges for what goes into the model, GW charges for what you get out of it.

pay to win man, it's terrible.

[CRC]

Yes, but that's a lot fewer models. Malifaux may be cheaper to play but it is not cheaper per model. $770 from GW would yield at least twice that number of models, depending on faction. GW box sets come out to about $2-$5/model, while Wyrd is around $7/model. I don't play much of GW anything anymore, but I also don't really understand the whole "Malifaux is so much cheaper" argument. Certainly, you can play a game by spending less money, but you are definitely paying more for the minis you buy.

Your price for GW sets are around half what I see.

Going by their website, space marines cost $4-$12 a model, excluding characteres, which makes them no cheaper on a per-model basis.

Tyranids are $3-$4 for the little guys, but you buy 2-3 times as many, and $20-$40 for the mediums, which puts them about the same price per point as marines. MCs are, of course, even more.

(All prices in $CAD, which I supposed I should specify)

[dgraz]

I'd rather not see this thread devolve into a Wyrd vs GW comparison. I'm in the GW-hater camp, but I'll never forget that without it I wouldn't have found my way into this awesome hobby. So even though I can't abide what they've done in the last few years, they've certainly done good things.

When it comes to pricing, it's all in the relevance. If you have the money and you like to play big games then you go for GW. If not, you go for something smaller....if you just straight out prefer skirmish games then you luck out since you don't need to spend as much.

Since I can't afford the big game I look at what else I get.......do I spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for my 2-4 hour gaming block once a week? Or do a spend 100. That's the big thing to me......by now I've spent hundreds on Mali, but for 100 I can still play for hours and have fun........I don't need to spend thousands to have a few hours of fun. (Disclaimer: my use of broad numbers is used in a general way.....not based on any hard statistics.)

[therat]

The whole "Malifaux is cheaper" argument comes from the fact that this is a skirmish game and you need much fewer models to play. You can start playing competitive tournament games with a starter box and a blister or two - a total of $50-$75; cheaper if you go all online retail. If you really just wanted a crew you could get a crew together for about $30 (Nico's starter box is $15 right now on Amazon).

I have never seen that argument made in a model to model basis, with the exception of hero type models. Compare the price of a master to a WH commander. Of course you get more models for WH, it's an army scale game, it also has an initial barrier of at least $100 to play - and that's not even anywhere near competitively.

I agree, to play Malifaux it costs less money and I prefer it to playing anything GW (or just about anyone else, actually). I'm just pointing out that the miniatures themselves are not always priced cheaper than comparable GW ones, especially considering the new plastics.

@ Jewomie:

The size difference is negligible and I find GW's newer plastics to be quite detailed, especially when compared to Wyrd plastics. Does my argument of models to play vs number of models really matter? Eh, I guess it depends on how you view value. If value is time, spending less to play for the same time is the better value and I can't help but agree. Still, I think it's fair to point out that Wyrd minis are not exactly cheap. The game itself is cheap, but the minis are quite expensive.

@ CRC:

I was looking at some of the models in the WFB range, not 40k, specifically some of the High Elf sets. I guess I always connected Malifaux to Fantasy, not sure why, square bases make a big difference .

My point, really, is that it is the nature of the game that makes Malifaux cheaper. Wyrd isn't producing minis at a super cheap price, they just made a really fun game that works with fewer models. It's just something that came up when I tried to get my friend into it. I told him that Malifaux is really cheap compared to games like Warhammer, but when he looked at the models he was shocked to find how expensive they are. I went to compare to GW and found that Wyrd only wins the price war when comparing individual masters to characters and sometimes large monsters. Malifaux is cheap, the minis are just as expensive as the next guy.

[Jewomie]

Malifaux is cheap, the minis are just as expensive as the next guy.

But as it is a game, and is meant to be played with the required amount of pieces, the only way you could separate the cost per model vs the cost to play is if you were only buying the models to paint or display in some fashion. Otherwise you would have to look at the cost to play the game, which as you mentioned, is cheap.

[LordZombie]

And that's a whole faction. That's what, one diverse army in GW land? Maybe 2 if you don't expand their options much.

As a player of Fantasy from 3rd ed to 8th ed, trust me, that is not one diverse army and not even close to two. Getting the whole faction in Malifaux will give you YEARS worth of gaming versus what you would get in GW. Don't forget, an army book/codex is now $50. One playable unit in Fantasy is $150 and that is minimum size, same goes for 40K. There is really no way you can compare GW to Malifaux, Malifaux will always come out on top. That is not just fanboyism talking, I have played GW games since '96.

[therat]

But as it is a game, and is meant to be played with the required amount of pieces, the only way you could separate the cost per model vs the cost to play is if you were only buying the models to paint or display in some fashion. Otherwise you would have to look at the cost to play the game, which as you mentioned, is cheap.

But many of us buy them to both play and display and a fully painted army is, in my opinion, far more impressive than a fully painted crew.

My argument is very commodity-based, which is a product of our strange flavor of capitalism. This discussion has actually opened my eyes a bit, making me think about the models more in terms of price-to-enjoy rather than price-of-miniature.

[Ozz]

As has been said, Wyrd model per model cost even more than GW basic models.

Sue = £7

New Games Workshop Deathwing Terminators = £35 for 5 models = £7 each.

From Wyrd you get 1 model where you get to decide if you want a flaming guitar or not.

GW give you 5 models you can make in a large variety of ways, with 100+ pieces.

A Fantasy Unit, 10 Grave guard = £25

Malifaux "unit" Guild Rifelmen/Witchling Stalkers = £14/£12

Again GW offers more options for these models, this time you get a better ratio of models for your money, rather than the same.

Get to individual models though,

Wyrd, lets go for Sue again £7

GW Ork Herald of something, all of them are £15

For a single model, with no extra detail over wyrd, except generally to many skulls as GW seem to love them, more than twice the price for a single model.

However, the reason Wyrd wins every cost argument is because, with a GW game, i will need to buy 3 - 4 boxes grave guard for a unit £75 - £100. Malifaux, i will NEVER need more than 1 box. Unless i specifically want a crew consisting heavily/entirely of the same model type. I will then need to spend £20-£25 more to have a full crew of a standard size of 35 SS. £40 for a crew, £50 for crew and book, £55 for crew, book and Wyrd Fate deck to play. Or from GW £100 for a unit that makes up less than a quarter of a standard army?

That is why Wyrd wins the cost argument, the scale of the game, is small so needs little to play.

I will also say, that i still play and enjoy GW games, it just makes me cry every time i want something new. As its so expensive. Malifaux, i have just been buying everything new that has been released until Febuary, because the cost is comparatively so s

---------- Post added at 09:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------

GW's price issue in my opinion is for me personally to enjoy the game, the write the rules so that you need to play bigger games to get the most out of the systems.

[Ryu]

But many of us buy them to both play and display and a fully painted army is, in my opinion, far more impressive than a fully painted crew.

My argument is very commodity-based, which is a product of our strange flavor of capitalism. This discussion has actually opened my eyes a bit, making me think about the models more in terms of price-to-enjoy rather than price-of-miniature.

I think this comes to taste too. I'd like a display of a crew or two fighting each other in a thematic background more than a horde of models.

This isn't to say a unified army doesn't look impressive, but desk space and personal taste don't allow for me to have such a display.

Your last point does have me thinking though - defining value for a mini is going to be different to everyone. Some value them more for their looks, in which case who cares if you have 27 identical models? Others value them for power on the table. Many fall somewhere inbetween on that spectrum.